Why did the Emperor make Primarchs and SM so big?

[b1soul]

Obviously large size has its advantages...the question is: do those advantages more than make up for its disadvantages?

 

Almost all the advantages listed are only relevant in melee. In ranged combat, a compact build is much more advantageous.

 

The question is whether a 6ft  power armoured transhuman supersoldier would be more efficient than a 7 to 8 ft power armoured transhuman supersoldier. A 6ft Space Marine would still be ridiculously tough and powerful compared to a 6ft Guardsmen.

 

[b1soul]

 

I don't think that is true on a modern battlefield either - quite a few armed forces around the world have minimum height requirements

 

 

Would you rather be 7'0" or 5'10" in a modern warzone? Minimum height requirement probably means the army doesn't want stunted midgets. Neither would they want huge giants.

[Black Cohort]

 

 

 

I don't think that is true on a modern battlefield either - quite a few armed forces around the world have minimum height requirements

 

Would you rather be 7'0" or 5'10" in a modern warzone? Minimum height requirement probably means the army doesn't want stunted midgets. Neither would they want huge giants.

When that extra 14" gives me an additional 150 lbs of muscle so I can wield a machine gun firing rocket propelled 50cal rounds and can give me additional speed I will take the extra height. Especially when I am in armour that protects me against everything short of an RPG hitting me.

[Clone]

Simple answer: the rule of cool

[b1soul]

 

When that extra 14" gives me an additional 150 lbs of muscle so I can wield a machine gun firing rocket propelled 50cal rounds and can give me additional speed I will take the extra height. Especially when I am in armour that protects me against everything short of an RPG hitting me.

 

 

How about if you get denser muscles, power armour, a bolter and all that jazz...but no extra height?

 

We're comparing a 6ft supersolder to a 7ft plus supersoldier. We're not comparing an unaugmented grunt to a huge supersoldier

[Greyall]

But there's a larger muscled area (which can be made as dense) in a larger person. Also a larger area where to cram more (and larger) organs.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

When that extra 14" gives me an additional 150 lbs of muscle so I can wield a machine gun firing rocket propelled 50cal rounds and can give me additional speed I will take the extra height. Especially when I am in armour that protects me against everything short of an RPG hitting me.

 

 

How about if you get denser muscles, power armour, a bolter and all that jazz...but no extra height?

 

We're comparing a 6ft supersolder to a 7ft plus supersoldier. We're not comparing an unaugmented grunt to a huge supersoldier

 

But how do you fit all the Astartes organs and upgrades in a normal size person? Especially as Asrtartes recruits have to be pretty damn healthy to begin with, so would likely be hitting 6 ft kinds of heights naturally, nutrition allowing. Space Marines are an upgrading process, the upgrades have to go somewhere. To fit a similar level of biological augmentation into a normal size frame, you would either need a large stock of very healthy midgets, or some kind of germ line, vitae womb procedure, assuming the Astartes organs could even develop in such an environment. Given how the Emperor is meant to be a genius, it should be a safe assumption that if the latter had been a viable superior option, he would have pursued it.

 

Plus of course, as has been said already, a larger size makes perfect sense given the melee focus of both the Astartes and the overall setting.

[Kol Saresk]

Obviously large size has its advantages...the question is: do those advantages more than make up for its disadvantages?

 

Almost all the advantages listed are only relevant in melee. In ranged combat, a compact build is much more advantageous.

 

The question is whether a 6ft power armoured transhuman supersoldier would be more efficient than a 7 to 8 ft power armoured transhuman supersoldier. A 6ft Space Marine would still be ridiculously tough and powerful compared to a 6ft Guardsmen.

except the lack of cover is generally mitigated by the tank armor against most solid projectiles(there are glaring exceptions; eg plot armor), a structure supporting their weight has only been a problem in stories where the structure was severely dilipidated or damaged and as for narrow spaces, 1.)that'd be a problem with the power armor even if they were reduce in size since the armor isn't exactly thin and 2.)that's why they have flamers.

 

And again, eleven different organs are being place into their chest cavity. There's just enough room for what we have. That requires space. So even if the height is left alone, the chest cavity still has to be enlarged which means that the space gets widened. Which still kills the narrow spaces while also adding extra weight to the human body and making it disproportioned and top-heavy in all the wrong ways.

 

The reality is that unless we go cybernetic(which the fluff describes the smaller cybernetics as being ridiculously expensive, more so than the bulkier), reduce the number of organs or go Captain America/Deathstroke, Space Marines just aren't viable at a smaller size. We could reduce the size of the organs, but in the case of the oolitic kidney, secondary heart, third lung and preomnor organ, reduced size would make the implantation unnecessary.

[b1soul]

Well, the melee focus would seem to be the only justification.

 

The extra organs are nice...but kinda offset by the fact that you're now a much bigger target (easier to hit and less effective at using cover)

 

Someone said that power armour renders cover redundant...if that's case, power armour would render extra organs redundant as well

 

EDIT: Let's not forget another advantage...smaller SM would likely mean faster SM

[Kol Saresk]

In which case, then there's no need to have Astartes and Primarchs because we just went Starcraft.

[b1soul]

In which case, then there's no need to have Astartes and Primarchs because we just went Starcraft.

 

You'd have Astartes...just smaller and with fewer extra organs

 

They'd still be heavily augmented supersoldiers equipped with power armour and bolters

[Greyall]

If you cram the organs in a tinier space, a single shot would disrupt two or three.

 

Power armour can't make up for organs, for that you'd need cybernetics (and those might make you even bulkier).

 

Also, power armour is meant to be taken off, eventually. And the Emperor's goal was to make supermen, not (just) super-armour, the Marines can survive a lot of situations with or without the armour.

 

But really, I feel your doubts would be better mitigated with an art piece showing a Marine performing a piledriver on an Ork Boss. You need size for that :D

[Don the Oiler]

increased muscle mass (making them stronger), the bigger bones (making them tougher)

That... is really funny and speaks volumes when you think it through to the end and look at all those pictures where they seem to have tiny heads in comparison to the rest of their bodies.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Well, the melee focus would seem to be the only justification.

 

It's also all the real justification needed.

 

The setting was spawned as ridiculous, over the top anachronism. The only justification for anything (especially back in the day when it didn't take itself so seriously) is 'because it seemed cool when we were down the pub'. Bigger super soldiers are cooler, and more visually distinct (this is also rather important for a model range), hence Marines are bigger than normal humans.

[b1soul]

If you cram the organs in a tinier space, a single shot would disrupt two or three.

 

Power armour can't make up for organs, for that you'd need cybernetics (and those might make you even bulkier).

 

A smaller Astartes design would simply forego some of the extra organs. If power armour is that great, the loss of a few extra organs shouldn't be a big deal. Most blades and projectiles bounce off the armour anyway

[Kol Saresk]

 

In which case, then there's no need to have Astartes and Primarchs because we just went Starcraft.

 

You'd have Astartes...just smaller and with fewer extra organs

 

They'd still be heavily augmented supersoldiers equipped with power armour and bolters

 

Which would still make them around seven to eight feet tall and we can start calling them SPARTAN II(I)s. Which, still does nothing to rectify any of your concerns because they're still too big for most cover, the weight of the armor is a problem for structure support and they still can't fit in small spaces.

 

So at some point, we're going to sump the armor to conserve size and weight, in which case the extra organs for survivability such as the third lung for breathing in most poisonous atmospheres, the secondary heart for increased cardio endurance, the oolitic kidney for absorbing dangerous chemicals from the blood and preomnor for "decontaminating" any food become necessary, which results in the larger chest cavity which results in larger size which puts us back at the beginning. Even the SPARTANS, which just had serious steroids and strengthened skeletons were still made around seven to eight feet tall. And Captain America/Deathstroke really only gained enhanced healing factors from their formulas. Their strength and speed is "Peak Human", meaning any normal human can reach it. Batman is actually as strong as Captain America according to how strength levels are determined by DC and Marvel as Batman has bench pressed 1000 lbs and Captain America has been seen maxing out at 1000 lbs bench press as well.

 

And once we sink down there, again, worrying about supersoldiers becomes redundant because what we really want is just human soldiers at peak physical capabilities.

[Greyall]

Power Armour enhances some of those organs and the general performance of the Marine's body. So, in a way, PA does mess with the organs.

 

Also, not all of them are vital. Some are, of course, but others are extras or enhancers. And even upon losing vital organs, Marines can sometimes compensate. Hell, a lot of downed Marines will probably get back up in a while, after a visit from/to the Apothecary.

[Kol Saresk]

Power Armour enhances some of those organs and the general performance of the Marine's body. So, in a way, PA does mess with the organs.

 

Also, not all of them are vital. Some are, of course, but others are extras or enhancers. And even upon losing vital organs, Marines can sometimes compensate. Hell, a lot of downed Marines will probably get back up in a while, after a visit from/to the Apothecary.

But usually because of the secondary organs that help the body heal, such as the Larraman's Organ, as well as the PA's drug-injection system which attempts to stabilizes the body when it suffers trauma. So again, circular. The only to make the Space Marines smaller, is to not make them Space Marines.

 

We can go the route of making them like the assassins, but there's a reason the assassins never became the mainstay of the Imperial Crusade in the first place and that is typically because they were engineered to be one-shot bullets, not soldiers. That's why assassins who survived many missions were so prized; because they exceeded expectations.

[Kol Saresk]

The only organs a Space Marine can really go without are the mucranoid(which can only be activated through external means anyways), the Sus-ann Membrane, Betcher's Gland, Neuroglottis, and Omophagea, all of which are the smallest organs anyway with one being a brain implant, two being implante in the mouth or throat and the last being implanted in the spinal chord.

[Marshal Rohr]

Why are space marines super well muscled and tall?

 

 

Male power fantasy.

[Kol Saresk]

Why are space marines super well muscled and tall?

Male power fantasy.

Speaking as a big guy, my fantasy is being skinny.

[War Angel]

I'm going to quote pacific rim, and replace Jagger's with spacemarines....

 

"There are certain things you can't fight. Acts of god, hurricanes. But with a space marine, you can fight the hurricane... You can win"

[Scribe]

But there's a larger muscled area (which can be made as dense) in a larger person. Also a larger area where to cram more (and larger) organs.

 

This was my answer. Make space for all the extra stuff, greater surface area, etc etc.

[Relict]

Rule of cool.

 

Aside from that, there are some practical considerations. 

 

(1) Psychological - in the 41st millennium, the appearance of even a small detachment of Space Marines on the battlefield can inspire the Imperial Guard to fight more courageously than before. There is a reason why the Space Marines are called the Emperor's Angels of Death. On the flip side, an enemy of humanity (that can experience fear) will be intimidated by the genetically-enhanced transhuman warriors advancing toward them, shrugging off hits that would be lethal to a normal human and totting weapons more commonly seen mounted to battle tanks. Now imagine a Legion of 100,000+ Space Marines. This is before we consider the various traits of the different Legions. The idea that an 8-foot superhuman can still somehow sneak up and disembowel you is a terrifying one - just ask anyone who has faced the Night Lords. 

 

(2) Physiological - Space Marines are built for redundancy. One heart has been destroyed? No problem - switch to the secondary. Been hit in the femoral artery (a death sentence for any normal human)? No problem - got quick-clotting blood after all. At that size, the Space Marine has more muscle mass - essential in melee combat (seeing how warfare has come full circle by the Horus Heresy). 

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Emperor knew that the Orks infest the Galaxy to the greatest extent (before the coming of the Tyranids) and designed his greatest warriors accordingly - being able to take on several Ork boyz and win, while surviving any damage inflicted on him. 

[b1soul]

If you cram the organs in a tinier space, a single shot would disrupt two or three.

 

...but most shots would be blocked by power armour, right?

 

...and a smaller, faster marine would be harder to hit and be better at using cover

 

 

 

Which would still make them around seven to eight feet tall and we can start calling them SPARTAN II(I)s.

 

 

What? According to the Deathwatch RPG, naked marines are around 7 feet tall