How are we going to stop the daemon summoning

[thepowerofwar]

I just played my first 7th ed game at 1k each in a 2 vs 2 match and wow.  The daemon player wanted to see how op they are and he averaged 30 ish dice a turn to cast with and he had the blue scribes too.  I caused about a third of his army to go down with and alpha strike of a fragioso and sternguard but he was able to summon 500 points worth of stuff and get one of his 3 guys to turn in to greater daemon! Any ideas guy I am kinda stumped atm?

[knife&fork]

Not much you can do with BA only. The daemonic powers (and invisibility) broke the game like nothing before.

 

Best I can think of without playing daemons yourself is taking astra militarum as your main and go for lots of wyverns.

[Seahawk]

Summoned stuff cannot summon more stuff, nor does it generate Warp Charges that turn.

Helping people not cheat ought to help.

Averaging 30 warp charges means he needs to have at least 14 ML2 psykers on the field before the dice is rolled. That would be exactly 14 ML2 Heralds of Tzeentch as the cheapest way to do that, soooo...yea. What I said above.

[Leonaides]

Yeah, new edition and all that but you werent beaten by an op army- you were beaten by people not playing by the rules.

[ChapelXIII]

Is an alpha strike an option? Lots of drop pods and decent of angels could be back in due to the limit on the amount of units in reserve being dropped. Turn one drop down and focus on whittling their warp charges down. If they are trying to focus their warp charges on summoning you shouldn't have a huge issue with a punch back. It also seems that if you flood their 12 inch area of summoning it can mess with being able to place them. Basically a good alpha strike should be able to damage their ability to perform well later. 

[MadMek83]

template weapons, as many tempalte weapon's as you can bring: Fragiosos, assault squads with flamers, Baal's with flamer sponsons, razor's with tl-heavy flamers, Sternguards with combi-flamers and heavy flamers. Hand flamers on death company, heavy flamers and flamers anywhere you can get them... Simply: just force the horde armies make as many wounds as possible. Of course this is far from ideal plan. But BA's are one of those armies that have more template weapon options than most imperial armies (astra militarum excluded) Fragiosos with pods and flamer-sterns are something also most daemon player's would hate to attack... but this options is as I said quite far from ideal plan. But still, promethium as answer is not also worse for this problem we have.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Summoned stuff cannot summon more stuff, nor does it generate Warp Charges that turn.

Helping people not cheat ought to help.

Averaging 30 warp charges means he needs to have at least 14 ML2 psykers on the field before the dice is rolled. That would be exactly 14 ML2 Heralds of Tzeentch as the cheapest way to do that, soooo...yea. What I said above.

No, but any psyker (including units of horrors) can summon further units. Technically possible for your army to double in size every turn as each unit of horrors summons its own extra unit of horrors, and heralds can start summoning crap as well. Not pleasant...

[Seahawk]

Sure they could, and then they're not targeting anybody with any attacks. That's also assuming that you don't kill any models, ever. With blasts and templates, it's not too hard to make swathes of horrors disappear.

 

Take 3 ML2 Heralds and 3 ML3 units of Horrors. If you tried to have each one cast summoning, you'll have on average three dice per unit to make it happen. At this point you shouldn't worry, because that's a mighty 13% chance of SUCCESS with each of those. More likely you'll try to improve your odds by chucking six dice three times, each having a 66% chance of success. Still not great, but at least more reliable.

 

So, assuming you get them all off, you now have 50% more horrors than before, not 100%. Next turn you have 18+D6 warp charges instead of 15+D6. Now that you have a few more dice to work with, you'll probably try and go for 7-dicing, three times. If they all go off, you gain 30 more horrors, or a 33% increase, which again is not a second 100% increase. That's also 90 horrors not shooting at you, and unless you know what that feels like, you won't realize how ridiculously awesome it is to have a non-capable army facing you.

 

The psyker game is all about diminishing returns. The more you have, the less you can do. Since horrors' and heralds' entire capabilities lie behind casting witchfires, I doubt you'll see a summoning more than once or twice per game.

[Shaezus]

Land raider spam, with a couple of vindicators and a baal, should break them. The thing to remember is only troops from the primary detachment are super-scoring. Concentrate your firepower on one or two of his starting troop units at a time.

 

Our ability to take land raiders as dedicated transports has a whole new meaning in this edition. I think this will work and hope to test it as soon as funds permit.

[Leksington]

From what I hear, it simply isn't fun to play with or against those lists generating ~30 warp dice.  Their psychic turns take waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too long and it gets boring quick.  Even if you come up with a clever counter to the demon clown car, the games probably are going to be pretty tedious.

 

So the best way to combat these lists is probably to walk away from the table.

[MadMek83]

Fear not brothers as in 2016 GW will release fixed edition that will turn psychic phase more like fantasy's magic phase. Right after they have decided they have sold enough daemon miniatures and start to make another thing cash cow. 

[Morticon]

I think we need to wait it out.  See what happens.

 

Personally, i believe that you shouldnt be able to cast a power above your mastery level - even if its a primaris.  I think that solves so many daemon summoning daemon nonsense issues.

[Seahawk]

Or, realize it'll never happen anyway and not be a chicken-little.

 

I suppose, in a 2k game, you could have a BF army that consists of:

 

12 ML3 Heralds

4 ML3 units of Horrors

 

and 60 points of who cares.

 

Sure, that will give you 48+D6 Warp Charges, but...okay? That's 52 fairly squishy models. Casualties reduce that very quick, and remember, no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase.

 

That means if he wants to summon more than four times, he has to split off his heralds into units of just heralds; for each one of those models you pop, that's a LOT of warp charges that disappear.

[Chaplain Admetus]

It's not as bad until people start summoning Lords of Change (but there's no guarantee you'll roll that power). Anyway, I'm yet to be convinced by the new psychic phase. I think it would be much better for balance, not to mention fluff, if warp charge generated by a psyker could only be used by that psyker. i.e. no more loading up on cheap psykers to fuel one mega-psyker. Each psyker generates dice = to their mastery level that only they can use, plus a d6 sized 'pool' that any psyker can tap into.

[knife&fork]

 

The psyker game is all about diminishing returns. The more you have, the less you can do.  

 

I couldn't agree less. The more you have the more you can actually get done in the psychic phase. If your powers are powerful or synergies well that's a good thing.

 

It's not as bad until people start summoning Lords of Change (but there's no guarantee you'll roll that power). Anyway, I'm yet to be convinced by the new psychic phase. I think it would be much better for balance, not to mention fluff, if warp charge generated by a psyker could only be used by that psyker. i.e. no more loading up on cheap psykers to fuel one mega-psyker. Each psyker generates dice = to their mastery level that only they can use, plus a d6 sized 'pool' that any psyker can tap into.

 

It's not a bad idea but it would also make it damn near impossible to get anything through. The new system is just really poorly balanced. You either get nothing done or completely steamroll your opponent in the psychic phase. 

[Chaplain Admetus]

I agree. It's balanced to small numbers of psykers, which is the problem. If I have a librarian with ML2, and they have an ML3 farseer, and that's all the psychic stuff on the table, that's probably going to lead to some fairly well balanced psychic phases. If I have a librarian with ML2, and my opponent has 2 Daemon Princes of Tzeentch, Fateweaver, and some horrors for 10+ warp charge points, I'm going to struggle to cast anything and struggle to stop things as well.

[Leksington]

Here is a batrep video from frontline gaming where they were trying out demon spamming from an 1850 point list.  They do a great job of explaining what they are doing, and a lot of the commentary is focused on the demon summoning aspect.

 

[ianj253]

Speaking of fragisios, did you guys see the changes to template weapons? If targeting a vehicle you must maximize te coverage of the template. This means it's much harder to get to closely placed vehicles. I was sad when I found this out.

[Shaezus]

 

Speaking of fragisios, did you guys see the changes to template weapons? If targeting a vehicle you must maximize te coverage of the template. This means it's much harder to get to closely placed vehicles. I was sad when I found this out.

That was actually in 6th ed too. Glad to see someone else seems to have got away with it too though :D

[knife&fork]

It was the same in 6th. That's why you need creative placement and always strive to fire through another unit.

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

With my FELLBLADE!!

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

Use dreads, DC dreads with talons would tear through them

lots of hvy bolter fire :)

if you go first concentrate on the psykers pretty much

I run 3 speeders with heavy bolters for 180 points 18 hvy bolter shots ,

fell blade, relic scorpius, 3 basic whirlwinds are 65 points each in CSM so in our upgraded new codex  they should be the same points or use vindis which are FAST yesssss

key is taking out smaller daemons and heralds

keep the summoning down, and keep the pressure on

and also last but not least flamers

Heavy flamers are best

our command squads get 4 heavy flamers, quite useful

[thepowerofwar]

On that game the daemon guy had to call it on turn 3( got called in to work) but it began to look a bit better for my side. He Blew up one of his heralds and part of a unit with a miscast lol, and we kept his blue scribes from transforming to a greater daemon( every turn they seemed to get that off.....). but at the end of turn 3 it was us at 5 VP and them at 10 VP in the escalating victory mission. The best part of the battle was that summoning the greater daemon counts the summoner as slain so we got first blood and slay the warlord from it

[Demoulius]

What the others said tbh.... If theyre summoning more horrors then theyre not shooting at you. And IIRC horrors dont got normal shooting attacks but only psychic powers? If he uses all his dice to summon things that are REALLY weak in combat then just casualy charge his units and curbstomp them. Horrors are pathetic in combat. Tbh id be more worried if they were summoning plaguebearers and bloodletters and keeping their initial Tzeentch numbers up.

 

That way they could get away with making a purist summoner army and just call in the melee support once the game started; which to me seems a great deal more terrifying....