Imperial Knights as part of a Space Marine army.

[BKZer0]

I don’t know if this is necessarily the place to ask a lore/fluff question, so please correct me if I am wrong. I am a big fan of the Imperial Knight as a model, and would like to incorporate one into my army list at some point. Let me preface this by saying that I am a huge stickler for adhering to lore and codex standards, i.e. squad markings, insignias, colors, etc... Before tackling an Imperial Knight, I decided it was best to read up on their lore and backstories to try and “get it right”.
 
I learned all about the various houses, Knight Patterns, and all that fun jazz, and therein lies my problem. The idea in my head was to paint the Knight model to match the rest of my army. However, after reading up on everything, I realize that isn’t really how it works. Even using the “freeblade” excuse, the Knight would still not logically paint himself to match a Space Marine chapter.
 
My army Chapter is the Blood Ravens. Because they are essentially space kleptomaniacs and steal every artifact of significance that isn’t nailed down, I thought it could be possible lore wise for them to find a lost/old/abandoned Knight while scavenging for relics on a Forge World or Knight World, and repurpose it for their own uses. My question to you would be is something like this possible? Does a scenario like this sound plausible from a lore standpoint? If so, would a Space Marine or Tech Marine be capable of piloting the Knight? I want to avoid a “Chaos Tau” or other similar “couldn’t happen, lore says so” type situation.
 
Thanks in advance.

Edited May 30, 2014 by BKZer0

[CommodusXIII]

Why not?  If you can imagine it, you can make it happen.  Space Marines interface with their armor through the Black Carapace, and Dreadnoughts are large walkers controlled by a nearly-dead Marine with an MIU.  It's certainly conceivable that they could adapt a similar interface for a Knight.

[TredHed]

From what I have been reading, I dont know if a Space Marine would fit into the cockpit. The Throne-Mechanicum/control-seat is built for a human frame and Marines are just HUGE compared to standard humans. Now that doesnt mean that the Techmarine couldnt save a dreadnaught Brother by wiring the sarcophagus in to replace the Throne.

[BKZer0]

Now that doesnt mean that the Techmarine couldnt save a dreadnaught Brother by wiring the sarcophagus in to replace the Throne.

 

I like that idea. No need for me to paint a venerable dreadnaught now. Veteran Sergeant What's Your Face, you have been upgraded to Imperial Knight.

[Lucien Eilam]

Any of the Adeptus Mechanicus affiliated House schemes would match a Blood Ravens army just fine.

 

You could also paint a Freeblade in a reversed Blood Raven scheme, either black or bone with red details, which would tie the whole force together without looking like it was painted in their colours.

 

Imperial forces fighting together often use a unifying campaign or task force badge, so you could even include elements of Blood Raven iconography on the Knight without it having to belong to them.

 

Something to consider before indulging in tech-heresy, anyway.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Lucien Eilam

[jeffersonian000]

You could easily have the Knight Pilot the descendent of a Knight that became honor bound to fight alongside your Chapter, a tradition that has extended through each generation until today.

 

Or, you could legally declare the Knight a "Knight-class Dreadnought", complete with an intered Marine pilot. The immensity of this relic requires its own specialized tactics, preventing the Knight from using Chapter Tactics.

 

Or, the pilot is a failed Marine candidate, who is allowed to serve his Chapter by piloting a salvaged Knight-class Titan.

 

Or, its a Freeblades, with shared enemies of your Chapter, tagging along while fulfilling a mutual agreement of support until their common foe is vanquish.

 

Or, your Chapter requested replenishment from the AdMech, and a lone Imperial Knight was all they could spare.

 

It's up to you to tell your own story, and pretty much any story can be told in the 40k setting.

 

SJ

[Marshal Reinhard]

I apologize in advance for being a no fun allowed guy, but since we're talking from a LORE standpoint, there's no excuse for space marines to have a knight. They just wouldn't, because its not a type of war machine that they deal with.

 

If  you want a knight painted up closely to your Blood Ravens though, you have quite a number of options however:

 

1. Make up a house whose scheme matches the Blood Raven scheme.

2. Make up a freeblade scheme that matches the Blood Raven scheme

3. Adopt a Mechanicum house, since they're typically predominantly red.

4. Make up a house that has a House Hawkshroud type system with oathsworn. Then your knight would be taking close actions with your Blood Ravens, and they'd even adopt some Blood Raven iconography, while still remaining they're own.

 

Of course, this is only assuming you want to avoid stepping on LORE toes at all cost. Between these and "The Ravens simply own this knight" there's a ton of additional options, and don't let anyone discourage you from using whichever you eventually end up going with.

[Olis]

You could easily have the Knight Pilot the descendent of a Knight that became honor bound to fight alongside your Chapter, a tradition that has extended through each generation until today.

 

*snip*

Or, its a Freeblades, with shared enemies of your Chapter, tagging along while fulfilling a mutual agreement of support until their common foe is vanquish.

 

These two story arcs sound the most plausible, to me. In my mind it'd either be down to a matter of honour or simple battlefield practicality.

[jeffersonian000]

Reinhard doesn't get it. There are no lore restrictions on what can or cannot be done in 40k. Never has been, never will be. GW writes in one book that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos, then writes in another of one Grey Knight falling to Chaos. We are told that Space Marines exclusively follow the tactical doctrine of the Codex Astrates, yet there are plenty of non-codex Astartes examples in the universe. The Emperor is the savior of Humanity, by sacrificing millions daily to fuel the war machine. 40k is a study in contradictions, where there is no such thing as canon, lore only covers what you think it covers, and the rule of cool rules supreme.

 

An Imperial Knight in Astartes colors is not only supported in the "Lore", it's supported in the art work (at least three "Ultramarine" Knights are seen supporting the Boys in Blue in the Imperial Knight codex).

 

SJ

[Lucien Eilam]

There might be no limit on what you can do, but there is absolutely a limit on what other people will accept as a plausible part of the 40k universe. I think it's safe to say that the question here isn't "am I allowed to?" but rather "do you buy it?"

 

Say it's conceivable that a Techmarine could jury-rig a Knight for a Space Marine pilot, and ignore for the moment that that's exactly the kind of plot point that turned C S Goto into a running joke.

 

It might still be plausible in the short term, but long enough to repaint it and make it a permanent addition to their forces, without any consequences? The Adeptus Mechanicus are violently opposed to unsanctioned modifications like that. Why would your Chapter decide that it's worth the risk of angering one of the most powerful institutions in the galaxy, on whom you are entirely reliant for supplies, for the sake of one Knight? A vehicle that probably fits into their deployment strategy and battle-plan only rarely.
 

We are told that Space Marines exclusively follow the tactical doctrine of the Codex Astrates

 

Where? Every current source I'm aware of mentions divergent Chapters within about a paragraph of introducing the Codex Astartes.

 

The Emperor is the savior of Humanity, by sacrificing millions daily to fuel the war machine.

 

Those aren't mutually exclusive. Just ask Spock.

 

it's supported in the art work (at least three "Ultramarine" Knights are seen supporting the Boys in Blue in the Imperial Knight codex).

 

I'm pretty sure there aren't. That's House Terryn.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Lucien Eilam

[Aguy]

Iron Hands might have a few as part.of a shady deal

[jeffersonian000]

The control throne of Knight does not require interface plugs, it's an inductive interface (ie, do plugs required). All the pilot needs to do is take seat and fight the machine spirit into submission through force of will.

 

SJ

[BassWave]

*sigh* Jeffersonian, you need to actually read the knight codex. There are blue knights because the house color is blue, not because they belong to Ultramarines. Knights have chapter symbols on them to honor the allies they fought alongside with. Knight pilots DO interface with the knight via a mind impulse unit (cables to the head), just like larger titans.

 

No, 40k fluff isn't concrete, but there are things that stay consistent. Would the rest of the imperium allow a marine chapter to keep a knight? Not if the Inquisition or the Mechanicus has anything to say about it, especially considering the blood ravens' dubious history. The mechanicus don't even fully understand how to operate a knight, so a techmarine trying to figure it out and adapt it for space marine use is not only implausible, but heretical.

 

In the end it's your model Bkzero, so do what you want. However, if you want to be fluffy, I would advise against the idea.

[BKZer0]

I'm glad I stirred up some interesting discussion.

 

For now, the tentative plan is the one posed by Reinhard.

 

4. Make up a house that has a House Hawkshroud type system with oathsworn. Then your knight would be taking close actions with your Blood Ravens, and they'd even adopt some Blood Raven iconography, while still remaining they're own.

 

That will allow me to do stuff like this:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140316090141/warhammer40k/images/c/ca/House_Hawkshroud_Banners.jpg

 

As far as picking a house that matches my army, that is fairly difficult for me. I painted my Blood Ravens as close to Dawn of War colors as I could. This means they are closer to a maroon-red than the bright-red of the Blood Angels and most red knight depicted in the art books. I still have some considering to do I guess.

[CommodusXIII]

If you want to go with an established House, you can pick on the Mechanicus-aligned Houses (bright red) and just dirty them up to make them darker.  They won't match perfectly, but they'll be closer than if they were bright and clean.

[Lucien Eilam]

Or you could paint them Forge World's Mechanicum red, which is a lot closer to the Blood Ravens colour.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Reinhard doesn't get it.

 

Harsh. I beg to differ though. While I firmly believe what BKZer0 finally does in the end, he should do it without being restricted by the fluff (as in, I'm actually advocating him breaking the fluff if it gets in his way) I believe there's still such a thing as breaking the fluff.

 

Does painting an Imperial Knight in Marine Chapter colours and saying it's part of the chapter break the fluff in my opinion? Yes. Is it okay to break the fluff? Most certainly. Can you come up with any number of fluffy explanations as to why a knight is completely painted in chapter colours, even go as far as to say that he's a "member" of the chapter that are all within the fluff? Sure. But in the most basic sense of the meaning of the words BKZero if it sounded plausible if marine chapter would take a knight for use by their own to which I gave what I felt was an honest answer.

[BKZer0]

I really took your original post to heart. I have a few tanks to paint before I get to the Knight later this summer. As I said earlier, I think I am leaning towards what you posted as option #4. Maybe I will write some stuff up and run it by everyone again to get their lore opinion on it.