please explain land speeder storms to me!

[skeletoro]

Ok so I play wolves but am looking at the possibility of allying in some raptors scouts in land speeder storms. I've got a few questions...

1. Do passengers get relentless, or just the vehicle itself?

2. Either way, I am guessing the raptors special rule wouldn't work because it makes the bolters heavy 1 AND specifies specifically that the model must not have moved. Correct?

3. The storm can jinks without moving now?

4. Do the passengers have to snap shoot after jinking? Would the raptors scouts be free to use their chapter tactics after jinking, at full BS, provided the storm didn't move?

5. Camo cloaks do nothing for the land speeder storm, correct? It would only benefit the scouts themselves, once they'd disembarked.

6. Can scouts disembark and assault normally (using the assault ramp) from a jinking land speeder storm?

7. I cannot deploy wolf scouts in the raptors land speeder storm, but if they were deployed together, I could move the wolf scouts onto the storm turn 1, then move and shoot the storm normally, and have the scouts disembark and charge turn 2? (not sure this is worth the hassle but thought I would check)

I'm kinda thinking the land speeder storm should be deployed separately, with raptors deployed in cover on foot. Hopefully wolves will gain access to the land speeder storm in their own codex soon enough

[maverike_prime]

Ok so I play wolves but am looking at the possibility of allying in some raptors scouts in land speeder storms. I've got a few questions...

1. Do passengers get relentless, or just the vehicle itself?

if the passengers are on the Storm then they follow the rules for shooting from a vehicle

2. Either way, I am guessing the raptors special rule wouldn't work because it makes the bolters heavy 1 AND specifies specifically that the model must not have moved. Correct?

Don't have a solid 'go here and confirm the answer' for that one, but I would say you are correct.

3. The storm can jinks without moving now?

Hadn't seen that one. Where did you hear that?

4. Do the passengers have to snap shoot after jinking? Would the raptors scouts be free to use their chapter tactics after jinking, at full BS, provided the storm didn't move?

I'll have to double check this, but I'm pretty sure in order to jink you have to have moved.

5. Camo cloaks do nothing for the land speeder storm, correct? It would only benefit the scouts themselves, once they'd disembarked.

Correct.

6. Can scouts disembark and assault normally (using the assault ramp) from a jinking land speeder storm?

That would be correct.

7. I cannot deploy wolf scouts in the raptors land speeder storm, but if they were deployed together, I could move the wolf scouts onto the storm turn 1, then move and shoot the storm normally, and have the scouts disembark and charge turn 2? (not sure this is worth the hassle but thought I would check)

All forces of the Imperium are Battle brothers so they can use each others transports, so yes.

I'm kinda thinking the land speeder storm should be deployed separately, with raptors deployed in cover on foot. Hopefully wolves will gain access to the land speeder storm in their own codex soon enough

Honestly, I doubt that will happen. both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels got Codexes after the Storm was introduced and neither of them have gotten access to it.

[skeletoro]

Thanks for that.

 

So, I noted that the rules for vehicles convey relentless upon the vehicle, but didn't spot anything stating specifically that passengers count as relentless when shooting from a vehicle. I'm not sure if this is just because I failed to spot the rule or because passengers don't get relentless.

 

It says that if the vehicle moved combat speed the passengers count as having moved, and if cruising speed they can only fire snap shots - if the passengers were relentless, it would mean sniper rifles don't snap shoot if the storm moves combat speed (because they're relentless). But as far as I can tell, they aren't conveyed this rule while embarked.

 

Also, fast skimmers can fire all their weapons at combat speed, as if stationary. If this applied to passengers too, it's be nice for sniper scouts. But as far as I can tell, it only applies to the vehicle itself.

 

I just looked at the rules for jinks and I cannot see anything stating that the vehicle has to move OR that it counts as having moved, either the turn before or the turn after the jink.

 

So it looks like a storm could stay stationary and jinking, and raptor scouts could fire their bolters using their heavy 1 rending chapter tactics the whole time - or alternatively they could disembark, shoot bolters or bolt pistols normally, and assault whenever they liked. However, the storm would be snap firing its heavy bolter/assault cannon the turn after a jink, regardless of speed, and simply couldn't fire the blast grenade launcher at all after a jink.

 

Up to combat speed, there'd be no chapter tactics bolters, sniper rifles would be snap shooting, but bolters and bolt pistols could fire normally - regardless of jink. The storm's own weapons would be snap shooting after a jink but otherwise fine. Passengers could assault (but after a jinks they won't have the assistance of the grenade launcher, which is very sad!)

 

Up to cruising speed, passengers would be snap shooting any weapons but the speeder's shooting would be no different. No disembarking or assaulting though!

[netminder69]

#3 Yes. You can jink without moving now. You just declare you are Jinking and the models embarked have to snap shoot also.

[Quixus]

 

7. I cannot deploy wolf scouts in the raptors land speeder storm, but if they were deployed together, I could move the wolf scouts onto the storm turn 1, then move and shoot the storm normally, and have the scouts disembark and charge turn 2? (not sure this is worth the hassle but thought I would check)

All forces of the Imperium are Battle brothers so they can use each others transports, so yes.

 

Has the ally matrix changed? Even Space Wolves and Dark Angels are Battlebrothers? How about Black Templars and Grey Knights?

[Grey Mage]

 

 

7. I cannot deploy wolf scouts in the raptors land speeder storm, but if they were deployed together, I could move the wolf scouts onto the storm turn 1, then move and shoot the storm normally, and have the scouts disembark and charge turn 2? (not sure this is worth the hassle but thought I would check)

All forces of the Imperium are Battle brothers so they can use each others transports, so yes.

 

Has the ally matrix changed? Even Space Wolves and Dark Angels are Battlebrothers? How about Black Templars and Grey Knights?

 

All imperial forces are battle brothers now. Period. We occupy a single slot on the allies chart, that is battle brothers with itself, like all the other entries- meaning yes, everone can now ally with themselves.

[Quixus]

Awesome

[skeletoro]

you can't take an allied detachment of the same faction as your primary detachment though.

[Kristoff]

you can't take an allied detachment of the same faction as your primary detachment though.

There are exceptions, though. The FAQs haven't taken those parts out of Codex: Space Marines or the supplements who had the ability before.

 

Also of note, Space Wolves and Dark Angels are considered different Factions for these purposes.

[netminder69]

Well yeah, SM can still ally with itself, but allied detachments still have to have different CTs.

[Grey Mage]

Sorry, I missed that on my first readthrough.

[Valerian]

Thanks for that.

 

So, I noted that the rules for vehicles convey relentless upon the vehicle, but didn't spot anything stating specifically that passengers count as relentless when shooting from a vehicle. I'm not sure if this is just because I failed to spot the rule or because passengers don't get relentless.

Only the vehicles are Relentless, not passengers. This is the exact same as it has been for several editions of the game.

 

It says that if the vehicle moved combat speed the passengers count as having moved, and if cruising speed they can only fire snap shots - if the passengers were relentless, it would mean sniper rifles don't snap shoot if the storm moves combat speed (because they're relentless). But as far as I can tell, they aren't conveyed this rule while embarked.

Again, no Relentless for passengers, so they count as having moved = Snap Shots for passenger Heavy Weapons at Combat Speed, and Snap Shots for all passenger weapons at Cruising Speed. (page 80).

 

 

Also, fast skimmers can fire all their weapons at combat speed, as if stationary. If this applied to passengers too, it's be nice for sniper scouts. But as far as I can tell, it only applies to the vehicle itself.

Only applies to the vehicle, no exception to transported units.

 

I just looked at the rules for jinks and I cannot see anything stating that the vehicle has to move OR that it counts as having moved, either the turn before or the turn after the jink.

That's right; it is a change from 6e. A model that Jinks can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn - doesn't say anything about a transported unit on the vehicle that Jinks, so if it doesn't move, they can count as stationary, and don't have to fire the Snap Shots like the vehicle does. Sort of a weird result there, but whatever....

 

So it looks like a storm could stay stationary and jinking, and raptor scouts could fire their bolters using their heavy 1 rending chapter tactics the whole time - or alternatively they could disembark, shoot bolters or bolt pistols normally, and assault whenever they liked. However, the storm would be snap firing its heavy bolter/assault cannon the turn after a jink, regardless of speed, and simply couldn't fire the blast grenade launcher at all after a jink.

Correct.

[skeletoro]

Ok, thanks for confirming that.

 

Scouts plus storms seem like pretty good unit to me. It's a same the Cerberus launcher is a blast weapon because it is disabled the turn after you jink! And blind seems like quite a nice effect to inflict.