MasterofMankind Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I saw it more as Morty seeing that he is alone at the end of Scars and started embracing the madness of his brothers. But that can't be it, he's shown to be disgusted by Fulgrim at the beginning of the novel, so either he changed his mind in a day, or ol' Morty has bipolar disorder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I see it as a difference between being manipulated by sorcerous means and utilizing it as a weapon. Mortarion was disdainful of the likes of Lorgar - he saw it as being subservient to the Powers of the Warp. Now, remember that Mortarion's first "father" was a necromancer. As such, Mortarion learned of his flesh-lore from a young age. He brought Grulgor back to serve him again. Note that he does not use Grulgor in any other way - he does not attempt to commune with the Powers he held in contempt. Hopefully the new Death Guard novel will shed more light. This is merely my conjecture at this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I saw it more as Morty seeing that he is alone at the end of Scars and started embracing the madness of his brothers. But that can't be it, he's shown to be disgusted by Fulgrim at the beginning of the novel, so either he changed his mind in a day, or ol' Morty has bipolar disorder. No I think there was a large gap between the ambush and Molech, probably that whole '2 years' thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I don't think so. Based on the conversation, the invasion of Molech is concurrent with the latter stages of the Shadow Crusade (Horus mentions that Lorgar and Angron are currently rampaging through Ultramar, noting Lorgar's injuries on Armatura). Betrayer begins exactly one year after the conclusion of Isstvan V. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Can anyone remind if Erebus is with or without his face in Betrayer? Because VS clearly says that Horus flayed his face before Molech. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Erebus still had his face in Betrayer. He didn't lose it until the Signus Prime campaign. Good God, the HH timeline is getting as confusing as the Terminator timeline... Even without all the time travel shenanigans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazguire Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I may be misremembering here, but I don't think that the wounds on Mortarion and the damage to his armour are said to be done by the Khan. I thought that that damage was sustained in battles that will be explained by the next Death Guard book. I think everyone is just assuming that they were inflicted by the Khan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Erebus still had his face in Betrayer. He didn't lose it until the Signus Prime campaign. Good God, the HH timeline is getting as confusing as the Terminator timeline... Even without all the time travel shenanigans. But wait, the Forgeworld Horus heresy books say that the Blood Angels go to Signus in 005.M31, but Betrayer happens 3 years later in 008.M31. While you COULD use the fact that there were a lot of warp-storms and the message didn't reach Horus, 3 years is a lot of time. And even if it reached him after 3 years, this would mean that Erebus goes: Planning Signus,then Isstvan V ,then Calth,then Shadow Crusade, and finally back to Horus's ship, which just looks weird Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Mortarion was raised by a necromancer and was a star student he knows sorcery and necromancy Does everyone forget this FACT! He has been aware of sorcery and witchcraft and it's all documented in the Stygian scrolls he choose to despise it because his race were used as cattle once he learnt this he stopped practicing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Isn't the Death Guard novel going to be written by James Swallow? I think it wisest if we all go ahead and brace ourselves for an explanation that makes the current "I hate sorcery/What's that, voice in my head? Disregard Deathshroud, acquire zombies?" divide look mild in comparison. It's a shame ADB, Abnett, or even Wraight wasn't tapped for the DG. Hell, get Sarah Cawkwell to do it. Ben Counter. Henry :cuss Zou, his depiction of the XIV in Blood Gorgons wasn't half bad. (Almost) Anyone but Swallow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 could be worse, could be Thorpe. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 could be worse, could be Thorpe. WLK I still shed some tears over him being handed the reigns of one of my first, and still high on my list, favorite Legions. I would kill to see any of those authors listed by Wade take over the Raven Guard. +Deleted by order of the Regent of Terra+ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Thats a bit harsh. I just ignore fluff I dislike and take the 'fool me once shame on you...' perspective. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Problem with that Scribe is that Gav is getting all of our HH fluff. ignoring that means we lose just about ALL of our HH material. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Frankly at this point, RG fluff begins and ends with HH3. :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Explanation for timeline confusion with Mortarion? Easy! Bad writing. Also, I believe neither Mortarion or the Khan really inflicted much damage to each other. The battle was definitely a stalemate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Nay, its not the writing, its the collaborative effect here. They have a team at work, I would hope, in Lorgars name I would pray, that they actually work at this like a team outside the big meetings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Well obviously not, man. Graham McNeil has consistently published glaring timeline errors that we are forced to accept as canon. I really like some of his writing, the Iron Warriors books were great. But this isunacceptable . ESPECIALLY as a Death Guard player / fan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 :/ I'm still thinking there's a gap here between the ambush and Molech but I held out hope for Outcast dead as well and I really dont want to go over VS again, I didnt enjoy the read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Collaborative effect? The previously published Heresy novel whose timeline Outcast Dead clashed with the most was False Gods. Which was ALSO by Graham McNeil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Frankly at this point, RG fluff begins and ends with HH3. :/ http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/534059_712846232076337_1680219188_n_zps2498424c.jpg WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I wouldn't call Mortarion's sudden swap a retcon. We already knew he was going to turn into that, and we already knew what he was before. The issue is that the change was too sudden, without any explanation or cause. This is also my main letdown after reading Vengeful Spirit. Fulgrim is visibly changed, so even if you missed out you can see something big happened to him in between. While I was looking forward to seeing the DG in action after Istvaan, they are not getting much screen time here. I feel like this book would have been better with a smaller cast as a lot of time it seems like the author suddenly remembers , " yes, oh and the DG were there too." and ads a coupe of hasty scenes. Which is indeed reminding me of Angel Exterminatus. In which I quite liked the IW and Perturabo. But it started out as book about Fulgrim becoming a frigging demon. Which happens in the last couple of pages and is also the set up for a bloody RG space ninja. Heck, the man even admitted In WD that he got carried away because he had so much fun writing Perturabo that he expanded these parts. And while I really like to see that people are enjoying their work....maybe someone at BL can remind him to stay on the bloody topic? Warren Ellis ( which work I quite enjoy) is rumored to have a Post it note next to his monitor labeled "Thought for the day: Do your fxxx job!" Maybe he can rent that out? And please keep Ben Counter from the Heresy. Pretty please? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Hell, I'd kill Gav. Two crows, one homicide. Oi, not cool, man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Mortarion's callous sacrifice of the Deathshroud was jarring, to say the least. I was immensely surprised at this. I still love how it's been twisted that it's no longer just two Deathshroud or whatever in most situations. Convenient that. To be fair, we always want more... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3703760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 The Deathshroud has a membership of well over two. It's just tradition that AT LEAST two must be within 49 paces of their master at all times. Regarding the timeline... If we use Erebus as a point of reference, he arrives back at Lorgar's side just after the Battle of Armatura (he notes that it is one week after his exit at Calth). Lorgar and Angron takes more than one month to travel between Armatura and Nuceria. During the closing stages of the Battle of Molech, Horus mentions that Lorgar had an encounter with a Warhound Titan's plasma blaster. That would place the events of VS as roughly concurrent with the Shadow Crusade... Which makes no damn sense, since Erebus has yet to execute his plans at Signus Prime. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3704100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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