Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 The Ruin Storm is already in place before VS starts. Malcador talks about it to the Emperor. About it being the reason the Emperor can't see into Ultramar. So it takes place post Betrayer. So Erebus has already fled from Khârn. So he just has to make one pit stop. To pick up the the Red Angel and then off to the Vengeful Spirit (the ship not the book). The only thing missing is the time it took the Blood Angels to get get the Red Tear into orbit then head on to Unremembered Empire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 The Deathshroud has a membership of well over two. It's just tradition that AT LEAST two must be within 49 paces of their master at all times. Oh of course - but it wouldn't be half as fun if there were only two at all times is what I mean, and would naturally not sell as many models. Something poetic about them making seven and Mortarion slaying six... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Not to mention that according to Mortarion Typhoon is hampering the Dark Angels. Furthermore The Lion is in route to Ultramar. Which takes place in 2.5+ years into the heresy I believe? So Corswain had time to find Russ. Rescue him. Russ then had time to return to Terra and set up the pathfinder mission. Geeze. Thought the warp was in chaos and travel incredibly difficult for the Loyalists. Mind you Corswain did this without the warp warping warp creature because it is with the Lion. So Mortarion is cool with Sorcery just not oaths? That's ridiculous. He hates psychic powers. Pure and simple. Even if you want to argue that Sorcery requires oaths does it not? Mortarion in scars: The warp is gross. Fast forward a week (cause the warp takes you were you want super fast) DEATH to my DEATHshroud in order to raise from DEATH my Nurgle marine. (It's cool cause in the book Grulgor doesn't talk about Nurgle) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Not to mention that according to Mortarion Typhoon is hampering the Dark Angels. Furthermore The Lion is in route to Ultramar. Which takes place in 2.5+ years into the heresy I believe? So Corswain had time to find Russ. Rescue him. Russ then had time to return to Terra and set up the pathfinder mission. Geeze. Thought the warp was in chaos and travel incredibly difficult for the Loyalists. Mind you Corswain did this without the warp warping warp creature because it is with the Lion. So Mortarion is cool with Sorcery just not oaths? That's ridiculous. He hates psychic powers. Pure and simple. Even if you want to argue that Sorcery requires oaths does it not? Mortarion in scars: The warp is gross. Fast forward a week (cause the warp takes you were you want super fast) DEATH to my DEATHshroud in order to raise from DEATH my Nurgle marine. (It's cool cause in the book Grulgor doesn't talk about Nurgle) *Fast forward 2 years and various untold events. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 But... In scars he seemed so against it(warp in general). And in Vengeful Spirit he does in regards to Fulgrim(sorcery). Those are a direct continuation of one another are they not? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 But... In scars he seemed so against it(warp in general). And in Vengeful Spirit he does in regards to Fulgrim(sorcery). Those are a direct continuation of one another are they not? Seeing Fulgrim like that isn't just seeing sorcery though, it's seeing his own brother, his own flesh and blood turned into something monstrous. Obviously the same thing happens with Grulgor, but for me Mortarion has always been one of those Primarchs who sees his Legion as soldiers, not sons. Scars - 007.M31 Unannounced Death Guard novel Vengeful Spirit - 009.M31 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Really? Thanks then for pointing it out. Thought they were like a few days apart with the: "His baroquely-fashioned Barbaran plate bore numerous marks of the artificer, ceramite infill, fresh paint and lapping powder. From the amount of repair work, whatever battle he had recently fought must have been ferocious." Then the: You are a wonder to me, my indomitable friend. If not even the Khan’s strength could lay you low, what hope have any others?’ I mistakenly thought that he was coming from the khan. Thanks for pointing it out though. But for some reason I still think the timeline of this book, UE, and Scars do not sync. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 If the injuries and armor damage come from another source which we will see in the Death Guard novel, that's one thing. If it's from battling the Khan, the timeline is completely screwed up, or "Graham'd" as I'd like to term it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3704951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Again, it isn't a millisecond, and again there is a Death Guard novel in the works set between Scars and Vengeful Spirit that apparently displays Mortarion's change of heart.Then Graham should have alluded to it and the fact that something happened, which had a profound effect on Mortarion and fundamentally changed his belief system. :) Not acknowledging this, even if the Death Guard novel had already been released, is poor form. According to Laurie Goulding over at TFE, Scars is set in 007.M31, Vengeful Spirit is 009.M31. Two year gap.Personally, I'm not bothered by this because such a calendar skip is to be expected - I think - where warp travel is concerned. I just think that it, too, should be acknowledged in some way. There are situations where the reader should be allowed to fill in the blanks, but coming up with reasons for apparent timeline inconsistencies is not one of them. Not when there isn't even a wink of a hint from the author. Also, someone alluded to the Death Guard (that is, the legion - not the primarch) being an afterthought in the action of the novel. Yeah. Essentially they served as an advertising platform for ... ... Grulgor's Life Eater Virus ability ... ... and that was large driven by them ignoring the fact that they could land pretty much anywhere on Molech to begin with. They didn't need to drive thousands of miles through ridiculous terrain. As far as demonstrations of power go, this was the silliest use of a Deus Ex Machina that I can recall in a long, long time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Maybe it was the Khan that triggered Mortarions change of attitude to warp powers after pointing out that Morty is on the same side as the thing he hated most (warp powers). I could imagine him merely seeing sorcery as another weapon and tool to use. There's got to be some point where he changes his mind as we all know what Mortarion becomes in the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Again, it isn't a millisecond, and again there is a Death Guard novel in the works set between Scars and Vengeful Spirit that apparently displays Mortarion's change of heart.Then Graham should have alluded to it and the fact that something happened, which had a profound effect on Mortarion and fundamentally changed his belief system. Not acknowledging this, even if the Death Guard novel had already been released, is poor form. According to Laurie Goulding over at TFE, Scars is set in 007.M31, Vengeful Spirit is 009.M31. Two year gap.Personally, I'm not bothered by this because such a calendar skip is to be expected - I think - where warp travel is concerned. I just think that it, too, should be acknowledged in some way. There are situations where the reader should be allowed to fill in the blanks, but coming up with reasons for apparent timeline inconsistencies is not one of them. Not when there isn't even a wink of a hint from the author. Also, someone alluded to the Death Guard (that is, the legion - not the primarch) being an afterthought in the action of the novel. Yeah. Essentially they served as an advertising platform for ... ... Grulgor's Life Eater Virus ability ... ... and that was large driven by them ignoring the fact that they could land pretty much anywhere on Molech to begin with. They didn't need to drive thousands of miles through ridiculous terrain. As far as demonstrations of power go, this was the silliest use of a Deus Ex Machina that I can recall in a long, long time. I agree completely... except for one thing The Death Guard novel hasn't been officially announced anywhere that I've seen. It's been discussed on forums, and it's kind of an open secret, but we don't even have a title yet. It definitely isn't going to be out anytime soon, and I'm not even sure Mr Swallow has started on it. We have Damnation of Pythos up next, with Master of Mankind and Nightfall sometime in the future, as well as an Unremembered Empire sequel. Going just on how much information I've seen about it around forums compared to other future HH books, I would put the DG novel after all of these. That's a good two years away. My point is, it's entirely possible that this novel isn't even off the drawing board, making it too risky to even hint at any events that happen in it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Sadly, that leaves even less of an excuse for Mortarion to perform such an about-face from his earlier convictions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Sadly, that leaves even less of an excuse for Mortarion to perform such an about-face from his earlier convictions. How's that? I'm not entirely sure what you mean. We have two years of things happening to Mortarion that can change his view point. Look at the amount of time the other traitors took to fall or to embrace Chaos, two years is plenty. I missed the significance of the "recently repaired armour" line before, but with the knowledge that it can't realistically be from the duel with the Khan, it's safe to assume that Mortarion has some trials ahead. I really don't see the problem with it. I DO see the problem with releasing a novel completely out of sync with the current time-line, which is what has happened here with the Vengeful Spirit. If the Death Guard novel had been written already and released between Scars and VS we wouldn't be having this conversation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Yes well judging from previous releases, Mortarions 'change' won't be believable in the slightest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 What sucks is mortarion was supposed to give in on the way to terra because his sons were dying from the rot, he did it to save them and damned himself and them in the process. Now he's willing to sacrafice the deathshroud for a minor captain like grulgor really doesn't make sense Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Was never a huge fan of the fall of the Death Guard. The most relentless, enduring Legion cracks and caves? I suppose there is a bitter irony there, but I've never been into them enough to really see the depth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Was never a huge fan of the fall of the Death Guard. The most relentless, enduring Legion cracks and caves? I suppose there is a bitter irony there, but I've never been into them enough to really see the depth. The bitterest irony of it all is that Mortarion is lauded as the must hardy and enduring of the Primarchs etc etc but when all was said and done, he was on his back dying and the Emperor had to save him on Barbarus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 There should've been a handwaving to whatever event the yet-untitled DG novel will tell. As it is, it's a little awkward. That being said, I like that Mortarion's fall is more gradual than Nurgle playing "PLAGUETAG, YOU'RE IT!" on the Legion's way to Terra. On Mortarion's hipocrisy, it's a given for any of the traitor Legions that hide behind a 'justifiable reason' to betray the Imperium. Sure, Chaos can just get in your head and turn you into a psychopath, but it's far more interesting if it pulls one's loose strings... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3705903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Was never a huge fan of the fall of the Death Guard. The most relentless, enduring Legion cracks and caves? I suppose there is a bitter irony there, but I've never been into them enough to really see the depth. The bitterest irony of it all is that Mortarion is lauded as the must hardy and enduring of the Primarchs etc etc but when all was said and done, he was on his back dying and the Emperor had to save him on Barbarus That point is brought up by a Death Guard Chaplain in Distant Echoes of Old Night, it was really poignant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3706065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Can't shake the feeling that Mortarion has some 'Angron-esque' issues with papa: "I was fine, dad, I could've dealt with him" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3706287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Can't shake the feeling that Mortarion has some 'Angron-esque' issues with papa: "I was fine, dad, I could've dealt with him" He definitely does, but I think the bigger issue is that he sees traces of his adoptive father in the Emperor... mainly in the form of a tyrant who uses people as pawns, which is not untrue. I always found his betrayal a bit shaky, but I think his time on Barbarus, especially living amongst the horrors in the mountains, adversely effected him permanently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3706332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Can't shake the feeling that Mortarion has some 'Angron-esque' issues with papa: "I was fine, dad, I could've dealt with him" He definitely does, but I think the bigger issue is that he sees traces of his adoptive father in the Emperor... mainly in the form of a tyrant who uses people as pawns, which is not untrue. I always found his betrayal a bit shaky, but I think his time on Barbarus, especially living amongst the horrors in the mountains, adversely effected him permanently. Yet he and his legion have a severe lack of empathy towards humans. And his comments in Scars with the Khan portray him only interested in power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3706944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Lest we forget, according to the old Index Astartes fluff, Mortarion only wound up choking on his blood before the Necromancer because the Emperor goaded him into a one man charge on his fortress, with "Take him down yourself and I won't force your planet into my Imperium" as the terms. Resentment? Oh, the Death Lord might have just a touch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3707002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 That sounds like a challenge. No one forced Mortarion to accept it - plus, can you really blame the Emperor to steer things towards his goals for Humanity? At least he gave Morty a chance to prove himself. Angron had no such "luck". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3707014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 "Do X and I won't conquer your planet". Are you really saying that's a simple challenge with no elements of coercion or duress involved? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-3707047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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