Mortarion - Vengeful Spirit (SPOILERS)

[Conn Eremon]

It sounded less like a "Do this, or I'll do it myself" and more like what he did for Corax. "Ok, you want this to be your accomplishment, so I will wait for you to do it on your own, but either way this world will be Imperial."

 

Only Corax succeeded (he did have an easier time of it, though), while Mortarion didn't.

 

And the Emperor didn't tell Mortarion he had to do it himself. There was no one else who could. The last one was higher than the others had been, and not even his "death guard" with their primitive rebreathers could survive that high up.

 

Corax's and Mortarion's introduction with the Emperor were the same. The only difference was its conclusion. Corax, having a potentially superior position that he was able to capitalize on, was able to do what he wanted on his own, and with the help of his prison army, who were capable of following him. Mortarion did not have a potentially superior position, did not have an army capable of following him, and was ultimately unable to do what he wanted to do.

 

The two would have probably reversed positions in the Heresy if this bit of history was reversed.

 

And damn it, Mortarion needs to buck up. All the Emperor did was step back, until it became clear that Mortarion was on the verge of death, and he hadn't even reached the summit. He failed on his own, and didn't even have a chance to come close to winning at that time. The Emperor didn't have to do anything to make it work in his favor. Mortarion did that on his own. Mortarion even looks back on this, when Nurgle tells the Death Guard to stop in the Warp, and regrets the fact that, this time, the Emperor won't be around to rescue him.

[Marshal Rohr]

Corax was one of the last found. It seems logical after the less than stellar melding of some of the other Primarchs with the Imperium, he might've had some time to gain a more circumspect outlook on how to handle the integration. It is logical that Angron and Kurze being difficult to control the Emperor might've taken a softer touch. The first dozen Primarchs were all more than willing to join the Imperium, but after the Lion, only Lorgar and The Khan seem to have not needed a steady hand. Perhaps the lesson on Angron changed his perspective.

[Greyall]

Of course there is some coercion, but seeing how Empy could have simply thrown Morty aside and be done with the planet and its toxic rulers all by himself...he was pretty fatherly, I think. He did the same with Vulkan: winner gets the other's fealty.

 

Though I seem to recall Mortarion saying he didn't need the Emperor's help. Which is also natural, leader's pride and all.

 

Using the lowest denominator isn't advisable but I'll sin this once: again, he could've pulled an Angron Rush, pull Mortarion to his ship and just left the humans on Barbarus choke and get scythed down.

[b1soul]

It appears so, then again Khan did really do a number on Morty, Mortarion could barely touch Khan whilst the Khan inflicted wound after wound until he heard of Ferrus's death.

 

Speed kills 

[Greyall]

It also served to demonstrate how resistant Mortarion is. Though it's starting to enter the uncanny (read:chaosy) territory. Didn't the Khan remark on that?

[b1soul]

It also served to demonstrate how resistant Mortarion is. Though it's starting to enter the uncanny (read:chaosy) territory. Didn't the Khan remark on that?

 

I think so yes. It's hinted that Chaos' tendrils have crept into Morty, perhaps enhancing his already formidable toughness  

 

Anyway...I'm a Khan fan and the battle is very close. The Khan does more damage I believe but Morty's strength and endurance mean the Khan is pretty quite fatigued as Morty simply just keeps coming

 

Morty teleports away as the final exchange is about to play out. Hard to tell who would've been left standing if it had played out

 

However, I do think the Khan would've done better late in the fight had Morty not pulled the Ferrus card. That really seemed to have an effect on the Khan and it allowed Morty to turn the tide

[Greyall]

For all we know, anything short of a headswipe would leave Mortarion standing. I'd give the advantage to Mortarion due to that surprise effect, but anything goes.

[Nazguire]

The Deathshroud has a membership of well over two. It's just tradition that AT LEAST two must be within 49 paces of their master at all times. 

 

Regarding the timeline... If we use Erebus as a point of reference, he arrives back at Lorgar's side just after the Battle of Armatura (he notes that it is one week after his exit at Calth). Lorgar and Angron takes more than one month to travel between Armatura and Nuceria. During the closing stages of the Battle of Molech, Horus mentions that Lorgar had an encounter with a Warhound Titan's plasma blaster. That would place the events of VS as roughly concurrent with the Shadow Crusade... Which makes no damn sense, since Erebus has yet to execute his plans at Signus Prime. 

It was implied in 'Flight of the Eisenstein' that there were only two members of the Deathshroud.

 

It's been changed. It was changed for a purely commercial reason for Forge World's release. There is no other viable excuse. Deathshroud were always mentioned to be consisting of 2 members within 49 paces. It was never explained that they were an entire corps within the Death Guard, of which 2 were always within 49 paces. This comes from Flight and A Thousand Sons.

 

Just as the 'Grave Wardens' were merely the name of Typhon's First Company - Now they're spiffy chemical warfare terminators who are part of the First Company. 

Just as Catulan Reaver Squad was initially the name of a group of assault marines lead by Captain Ekkadon. Now they're an entire faction of Space Marines within the Sons of Horus expanded purely for the aim of selling models.

Just as the Palatine Blades were an artificial creation of FW for the Emperor's Children, and McNeill tries to insert them rough shod into Angel Exterminatus with Krysander of the Blades, of whom the most prominent member (Lucius) isn't even mentioned to have been a part of them.

 

Love the models, have no issue with them being released or whatever. It doesn't really allow for good continuity when the authors and FW's commercial interests don't really gel as much as we'd like.

[Perrin]

 

The Deathshroud has a membership of well over two. It's just tradition that AT LEAST two must be within 49 paces of their master at all times. 

 

Regarding the timeline... If we use Erebus as a point of reference, he arrives back at Lorgar's side just after the Battle of Armatura (he notes that it is one week after his exit at Calth). Lorgar and Angron takes more than one month to travel between Armatura and Nuceria. During the closing stages of the Battle of Molech, Horus mentions that Lorgar had an encounter with a Warhound Titan's plasma blaster. That would place the events of VS as roughly concurrent with the Shadow Crusade... Which makes no damn sense, since Erebus has yet to execute his plans at Signus Prime. 

It was implied in 'Flight of the Eisenstein' that there were only two members of the Deathshroud.

 

It's been changed. It was changed for a purely commercial reason for Forge World's release. There is no other viable excuse. Deathshroud were always mentioned to be consisting of 2 members within 49 paces. It was never explained that they were an entire corps within the Death Guard, of which 2 were always within 49 paces. This comes from Flight and A Thousand Sons.

 

Just as the 'Grave Wardens' were merely the name of Typhon's First Company - Now they're spiffy chemical warfare terminators who are part of the First Company. 

Just as Catulan Reaver Squad was initially the name of a group of assault marines lead by Captain Ekkadon. Now they're an entire faction of Space Marines within the Sons of Horus expanded purely for the aim of selling models.

Just as the Palatine Blades were an artificial creation of FW for the Emperor's Children, and McNeill tries to insert them rough shod into Angel Exterminatus with Krysander of the Blades, of whom the most prominent member (Lucius) isn't even mentioned to have been a part of them.

 

Love the models, have no issue with them being released or whatever. It doesn't really allow for good continuity when the authors and FW's commercial interests don't really gel as much as we'd like.

 

 

Do you have the exact quote for the Deathshroud? I seem to remember it stating that two must always be within 49 paces of the Primarch, not that there were only two in existence. Haven't read either in a while so may be wrong.

 

Never really put Krysander of the Blades and the Palatine Blades together. Is it confirmed that he is a member or are you just putting it together because of his moniker? Also why would Lucius ever want to be a member of the Palatine Blades, have you not seen the guy? He would see that as demeaning himself, allowing the reputation of other warriors to profit by association.

[DuskRaider]

 

 

Can't shake the feeling that Mortarion has some 'Angron-esque' issues with papa: "I was fine, dad, I could've dealt with him"

He definitely does, but I think the bigger issue is that he sees traces of his adoptive father in the Emperor... mainly in the form of a tyrant who uses people as pawns, which is not untrue. I always found his betrayal a bit shaky, but I think his time on Barbarus, especially living amongst the horrors in the mountains, adversely effected him permanently.

Yet he and his legion have a severe lack of empathy towards humans.

 

And his comments in Scars with the Khan portray him only interested in power.

 

I wouldn't say they lack empathy toward humans. Their expanded background in Betrayal more leads one to believe they champion for the weak. The conquest of Galaspar seems to show that pretty well. Although I do agree, in Scars Mortarion definitely speaks of toppling Horus and taking power... more dividing it than allowing Horus to have it all. I think he's pretty disappointed in what his allies have become.

[Chaeron]

 

The Deathshroud has a membership of well over two. It's just tradition that AT LEAST two must be within 49 paces of their master at all times. 

 

Regarding the timeline... If we use Erebus as a point of reference, he arrives back at Lorgar's side just after the Battle of Armatura (he notes that it is one week after his exit at Calth). Lorgar and Angron takes more than one month to travel between Armatura and Nuceria. During the closing stages of the Battle of Molech, Horus mentions that Lorgar had an encounter with a Warhound Titan's plasma blaster. That would place the events of VS as roughly concurrent with the Shadow Crusade... Which makes no damn sense, since Erebus has yet to execute his plans at Signus Prime. 

It was implied in 'Flight of the Eisenstein' that there were only two members of the Deathshroud.

 

It's been changed. It was changed for a purely commercial reason for Forge World's release. There is no other viable excuse. Deathshroud were always mentioned to be consisting of 2 members within 49 paces. It was never explained that they were an entire corps within the Death Guard, of which 2 were always within 49 paces. This comes from Flight and A Thousand Sons.

 

Just as the 'Grave Wardens' were merely the name of Typhon's First Company - Now they're spiffy chemical warfare terminators who are part of the First Company. 

Just as Catulan Reaver Squad was initially the name of a group of assault marines lead by Captain Ekkadon. Now they're an entire faction of Space Marines within the Sons of Horus expanded purely for the aim of selling models.

Just as the Palatine Blades were an artificial creation of FW for the Emperor's Children, and McNeill tries to insert them rough shod into Angel Exterminatus with Krysander of the Blades, of whom the most prominent member (Lucius) isn't even mentioned to have been a part of them.

 

Love the models, have no issue with them being released or whatever. It doesn't really allow for good continuity when the authors and FW's commercial interests don't really gel as much as we'd like.

 

 

That's exactly as I remember it also - glad I wasn't conflating things!

[Phoebus]

Sadly, that leaves even less of an excuse for Mortarion to perform such an about-face from his earlier convictions.

How's that?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

We have two years of things happening to Mortarion that can change his view point. Look at the amount of time the other traitors took to fall or to embrace Chaos, two years is plenty.

"Two years have passed, fill in the blanks as to why this character is behaving in a manner completely at odds with his principles as they were last seen" doesn't strike me as the best approach. If something has happened in those two years that has led said character to have fundamentally change, then the author should at least allude to it.

***

Where Mortarion and the Emperor is concerned, I think it's important to remember that central to the Index Astartes story is that the people of Barbarus do not appear to have felt threatened by the Emperor. Quite the contrary, they seem to have realized something Mortarion missed altogether: the obvious connection between their benefactor and the mysterious stranger. Mortarion, on the other hand, seems to have been less worried about someone invading his planet and more about his moment of triumph being stolen from him.

That's not to say that Mortarion didn't genuinely want to save his people. Quite the contrary. It just means he was a complex person, and that he wasn't immune to pride or envy. This may very well have led to lasting resentment. It's only realistic for that resentment to increase the farther he went from Barbarus. Most humans were not like "his" people. Most of the other primarchs were majestic beings. Mortarion was "beneficent savior" to only a few. His countenance, which probably wasn't in and of itself an object of fear to the people of Barbarus, was very much an image of death to everyone else.

Now, there's always the possibility that the Index Astartes simply reflects Imperial propaganda post-Heresy, to smear Mortarion's name. Maybe we'll find out as much later on.

[Phoebus]

Can we delete this post?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I believe the old IA articles also had both Guilliman and Corax approach the Emperor about Morty's loyalty, only to be brushed off.

 

WLK

[Nazguire]

 

 

The Deathshroud has a membership of well over two. It's just tradition that AT LEAST two must be within 49 paces of their master at all times. 

 

Regarding the timeline... If we use Erebus as a point of reference, he arrives back at Lorgar's side just after the Battle of Armatura (he notes that it is one week after his exit at Calth). Lorgar and Angron takes more than one month to travel between Armatura and Nuceria. During the closing stages of the Battle of Molech, Horus mentions that Lorgar had an encounter with a Warhound Titan's plasma blaster. That would place the events of VS as roughly concurrent with the Shadow Crusade... Which makes no damn sense, since Erebus has yet to execute his plans at Signus Prime. 

It was implied in 'Flight of the Eisenstein' that there were only two members of the Deathshroud.

 

It's been changed. It was changed for a purely commercial reason for Forge World's release. There is no other viable excuse. Deathshroud were always mentioned to be consisting of 2 members within 49 paces. It was never explained that they were an entire corps within the Death Guard, of which 2 were always within 49 paces. This comes from Flight and A Thousand Sons.

 

Just as the 'Grave Wardens' were merely the name of Typhon's First Company - Now they're spiffy chemical warfare terminators who are part of the First Company. 

Just as Catulan Reaver Squad was initially the name of a group of assault marines lead by Captain Ekkadon. Now they're an entire faction of Space Marines within the Sons of Horus expanded purely for the aim of selling models.

Just as the Palatine Blades were an artificial creation of FW for the Emperor's Children, and McNeill tries to insert them rough shod into Angel Exterminatus with Krysander of the Blades, of whom the most prominent member (Lucius) isn't even mentioned to have been a part of them.

 

Love the models, have no issue with them being released or whatever. It doesn't really allow for good continuity when the authors and FW's commercial interests don't really gel as much as we'd like.

 

 

Do you have the exact quote for the Deathshroud? I seem to remember it stating that two must always be within 49 paces of the Primarch, not that there were only two in existence. Haven't read either in a while so may be wrong.

 

Never really put Krysander of the Blades and the Palatine Blades together. Is it confirmed that he is a member or are you just putting it together because of his moniker? Also why would Lucius ever want to be a member of the Palatine Blades, have you not seen the guy? He would see that as demeaning himself, allowing the reputation of other warriors to profit by association.

 

 

 

Haven't got the book on hand, but the HH: Betrayal book with the Palatine Blades entry states that one of their most prominent members was Lucius.

Krysander; excellent swordsman and his moniker is 'of the Blades'. Pretty clear it is referring to the Palatine Blades in an offhand way.

[Frosco Toppings]

I think Mort's change of attitute towards sorcery could be handled well if say, the DG book deals a lot with Mort's reflection of his past back on Barbara-Ann and his relationship with the Necromancer (whose character/motives could also be fleshed out). It could be something more psychological than some of the more bolter-pornish books and have some sort of a "doomed to repeat" theme.

[b1soul]

I think Mort's change of attitute towards sorcery could be handled well if say, the DG book deals a lot with Mort's reflection of his past back on Barbara-Ann and his relationship with the Necromancer

 

Apparently James Swallow is writing it. I'm not sure if he's capable of writing memorable characters (see Raldoron, Azkaellon, Kano, Meros and pretty much every character in Fear to Tread, even Sanguinius)

[Marshal Rohr]

Complaining that Forge World altered the number of bodyguard units is silly.

 

Just having 2 body guards would make no sense. When do they sleep? Or eat? Or train? How could they ever get their armor serviced or the weapons maintained? The Palatine Blades offend you because FW made them up? I guess you don't like the Storm Eagle either.

 

Just because Graham McNeill is heavy handed with his transference of table top units to lore doesn't mean it wasn't a thoughtful endeavor on FW's part.

[Phoebus]

 

I think Mort's change of attitute towards sorcery could be handled well if say, the DG book deals a lot with Mort's reflection of his past back on Barbara-Ann and his relationship with the Necromancer

 

Apparently James Swallow is writing it. I'm not sure if he's capable of writing memorable characters (see Raldoron, Azkaellon, Kano, Meros and pretty much every character in Fear to Tread, even Sanguinius)

 

 

Or, you know, Nathaniel Garro.  ;)

 

Sure, Fear to Tread wasn't the best.  I think people are quick to forget that James Swallow also wrote ​Flight of the Eisenstein, though, which was a solid book with engaging characters and some moving moments:

 

 

 

Huron-Fal caught him. ‘I told you to run, you fool.’

The captain flung off his helmet with a final, agonised gesture of defiance. It was useless now, the virus having moved effortlessly through the breather grille and into his lungs. His hand flailed at the metal flank of the dreadnought and traced a runnel of dark fluid. Even through the pain, Temeter understood. There was a small fracture in the old warrior’s ceramite casing, not enough to have slowed him on the battlefield, but more than the virus needed to reach inside the dreadnought’s hull and savage the remnants of flesh inside. ‘You… lied.’

‘Veteran’s prerogative,’ came the reply. ‘We’ll go together then, shall we?’ Huron-Fal asked, embracing Temeter’s body to him, moving swiftly away from the bunker.

It took every last effort from Temeter to nod. Blinded now, he could feel the tissues of his eyes burning and shrivelling in his head, the soft meat of his lips and tongue dissolving.

Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shut-down as he stumbled to a safe distance, skidding to a halt. ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

With a single burning nerve impulse, the mind of the warrior at the heart of the dreadnought uncoupled the governor controls on his compact fusion generator and let it overload. For a moment there was a tiny star on the battered plains outside the Choral City, marking two more lives lost within a maelstrom of murder.

 

Excerpt From: James Swallow. “The Flight of the Eisenstein.”

[Castrmen Orth]

Forgot how powerful that little scene was. Two soldiers being able to deny the enemy the only way they can.

 

Nicely written and overall a good book i thought

[b1soul]

Or, you know, Nathaniel Garro.

Not really a Garro fan. I guess he's all right, better-written than his terrible BA characters

I also couldn't get through Flight of the Eisenstein. I thought it was quite bad

[Chaeron]

Or, you know, Nathaniel Garro.

Not really a Garro fan. I guess he's all right, better-written than his terrible BA characters

I also couldn't get through Flight of the Eisenstein. I thought it was quite bad

I've struggled with the BA omnibus more than most books (aside from some of Mike Lee's fantasy work, just isn't gripping enough), but I did really enjoy FotE. Although as aforementioned, the time-jump between the events earlier in the series and Vengeful Spirit meant I really had to think about things and what had happened before.

[Augustus]

First time I read FotE I was like aaaaagggh. Now I like it.

[Perrin]

It may help to read Scars again shortly before the Death Guard novel is released, then read that, then read Vengeful Spirit directly afterwards and see how Mortarion's decisions weigh up then.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Im not sure of the value of any book that requires such prepwork in order to make sense.

 

WLK