Mortarion - Vengeful Spirit (SPOILERS)

[helterskelter]

Mortarion is a coward! He went with the easiest option available to him and utilised his failed ethics to make a choice. Why would no one murder erebus? They killed their own sons for less but let erebus live? Seriously?! Perturabo would've destroyed him, any sane primarch would've split him in half and we're stuck with "oh yeah let's do what this feeble astartes is running with". Horus the brightest star, failed to see, that the weapon stolen, was conveniently removed from the race that started a rook with him. Pillac! The only ones that have any real reason to be traitors are II and XI, petulance is a pathetic reason to start a galaxy wide war. Exitrant :p

[MasterofMankind]

Mortarion is a coward! He went with the easiest option available to him and utilised his failed ethics to make a choice. Why would no one murder erebus? They killed their own sons for less but let erebus live? Seriously?! Perturabo would've destroyed him, any sane primarch would've split him in half and we're stuck with "oh yeah let's do what this feeble astartes is running with". Horus the brightest star, failed to see, that the weapon stolen, was conveniently removed from the race that started a rook with him. Pillac! The only ones that have any real reason to be traitors are II and XI, petulance is a pathetic reason to start a galaxy wide war. Exitrant

Debatable.

Some primarchs had imagined slights, like Horus and Mortarion, but others had real ones, like Lorgar being forbidden his faith, or Perturabo always getting the shaft, or Magnus and his legion being exterminated because they dared to practice "sorcery".

[Slips]

Mortarion is a coward! He went with the easiest option available to him and utilised his failed ethics to make a choice. Why would no one murder erebus? They killed their own sons for less but let erebus live? Seriously?! Perturabo would've destroyed him, any sane primarch would've split him in half and we're stuck with "oh yeah let's do what this feeble astartes is running with". Horus the brightest star, failed to see, that the weapon stolen, was conveniently removed from the race that started a rook with him. Pillac! The only ones that have any real reason to be traitors are II and XI, petulance is a pathetic reason to start a galaxy wide war. Exitrant

Debatable.

Some primarchs had imagined slights, like Horus and Mortarion, but others had real ones, like Lorgar being forbidden his faith, or Perturabo always getting the shaft, or Magnus and his legion being exterminated because they dared to practice "sorcery".

Do note however, the Emperors Original Edict was not to destroy the Thousand Sons, but to bring Magnus back to Terra for Trial, Horus, having intercepted the comuniquee altered it into the "exterminate them" version the Wolves and Russ got!

[Clone]

Mortarion is a coward! He went with the easiest option available to him and utilised his failed ethics to make a choice. Why would no one murder erebus? They killed their own sons for less but let erebus live? Seriously?! Perturabo would've destroyed him, any sane primarch would've split him in half and we're stuck with "oh yeah let's do what this feeble astartes is running with". Horus the brightest star, failed to see, that the weapon stolen, was conveniently removed from the race that started a rook with him. Pillac! The only ones that have any real reason to be traitors are II and XI, petulance is a pathetic reason to start a galaxy wide war. Exitrant

Debatable.

Some primarchs had imagined slights, like Horus and Mortarion, but others had real ones, like Lorgar being forbidden his faith, or Perturabo always getting the shaft, or Magnus and his legion being exterminated because they dared to practice "sorcery".

Do note however, the Emperors Original Edict was not to destroy the Thousand Sons, but to bring Magnus back to Terra for Trial, Horus, having intercepted the comuniquee altered it into the "exterminate them" version the Wolves and Russ got!

And the wolves always follow orders.

[Karthak]

Mortarion is a coward! He went with the easiest option available to him and utilised his failed ethics to make a choice. Why would no one murder erebus? They killed their own sons for less but let erebus live? Seriously?! Perturabo would've destroyed him, any sane primarch would've split him in half and we're stuck with "oh yeah let's do what this feeble astartes is running with". Horus the brightest star, failed to see, that the weapon stolen, was conveniently removed from the race that started a rook with him. Pillac! The only ones that have any real reason to be traitors are II and XI, petulance is a pathetic reason to start a galaxy wide war. Exitrant

Debatable.

Some primarchs had imagined slights, like Horus and Mortarion, but others had real ones, like Lorgar being forbidden his faith, or Perturabo always getting the shaft, or Magnus and his legion being exterminated because they dared to practice "sorcery".

Don't forget, Magnus also wrecked the Emperor's webway project and flooded the palace basement with daemons, thus putting all of Terra at risk.

[b1soul]

Don't forget, Magnus also wrecked the Emperor's webway project and flooded the palace basement with daemons, thus putting all of Terra at risk.

 

Yup...pretty serious blunder right there, but he had good intentions (trying to give the Emp early warning about Horus though I think McNeill has turned this part of the timeline into a debacle). 

 

Magnus was also pretty nice about the extermination of his legion. Killing his own captains to keep his legion ignorant of the impending invasion. Sitting out the battle until the last minute. He was trying his hardest to accept his punishment as a loyal son. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Do or do not, there is no try.

 

WLK

 

(I find that amazingly funny as an earlier jedi master stated only a sith deals in absolutes)

[b1soul]

Do or do not, there is no try.

 

Yeah but Magnus's actions before the invasion and inaction during the actual razing had significant consequences 

 

Had Magnus been committed to defending against the invasion, the Wolves and their allies would've taken much heavier casualties. Instead, he sat out the battle and let his legion die until the last minute. The Wolves (and Custodes and Sisters) got off easy thanks to him 

[Wade Garrett]

Do or do not, there is no try.

 

WLK

 

(I find that amazingly funny as an earlier jedi master stated only a sith deals in absolutes)

Ah-hem.

 

Obi-wan Kenobi was the source of the later cringeworthy quote ("Only a Sith deals in absolutes" IS AN ABSOLUTE, YOU TWIT!).

 

Master Yoda had achieved Knighthood and Masterdom long before Kenobi, and by Obi-wan's own words in the Original Trilogy was far wiser and more skilled in the Force than he.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That was a joke fellas.

 

as a SW(oops, Star Wars in this case) fan, I tend to disregard anything from Episodes 1-3. I just couldnt resist.

though I agree, I winced hard when Obi-wan said that. 

 

@Magnus and his actions prior to the invasion: Magnus was assured of the power to destroy the Wolves on their way to Prospero from a less than trustworthy source. 

I often have to remember that despite the words of the Chaos Pantheon, they are far from the only power in 30k. I wonder, if Chaos had moved directly against the oncoming Wolves, would another power had moved to block them even if they had the power to do as they claimed.

 

WLK

[Blood Angel Scout]

Magnus's arrogance/pride were the reason for his actions and downfall, from older times for going against the Edict and using sorcery to contact Terra, possibly always was later than Isstvan, (not 100% on that last bit) and this is current via Lorgar making this point to him in the opening chapters of Betrayer. Horus changing the message had always been the way it happened in the setting but as to the how, we're only finding that out now.

 

As to the topic, I was ok with the brief mention that Mortarion had experience with necromancy in his youth and maintain he sees a distinction between someone saying phrases to invoke a rite/spell/summoning, which potentially anyone can be taught to use and someone who can open their mind to the warp and manipulate it to their own ends.

 

To me, this viewpoint then gives a stronger basis to expand upon the fall of the Death Guard to Nurgle with more depth, if you take into account Typhon's intentions, delivering the legion stated in FotE and his reward of the mark of Nurgle in The Lion, then Mort's own dabbling of the non-psyker part, leading to further damnation as the Khan warned in Scars, rather than just the DG were stuck/stranded and possessed in a warp storm before the Siege.

[Stonerhino]

Magnus's arrogance/pride were the reason for his actions and downfall, from older times for going against the Edict and using sorcery to contact Terra, possibly always was later than Isstvan, (not 100% on that last bit) and this is current via Lorgar making this point to him in the opening chapters of Betrayer. Horus changing the message had always been the way it happened in the setting but as to the how, we're only finding that out now

It is not so simple as a linear timeline.  In retrospect it actually makes more sence but it goes like this.

 

Magnus trys and fails to save Horus.

Magnus sets out to tell the Emperor about Horus.

Magnus' attempt damages the wards in the Imperial Palace but the Emperor contains it.

The Emperor sends the Wolves after Magnus and Watch Packs sent out.

Horus changes the the Wolves orders.

Prospero is burned shortly before Istvan 3.

The Wolves are recovering from Prospero and out of contact during Istvan 5.

The wards on the palace finally fail complety after 2 years.

The events in The Outcast Dead happen.

 

What makes this time line more acceptable is that the Astropaths on Terra mostly die after it is to late for Terra to replace them properly.  An event killing the Astropaths before the Heresy really kicks off would just see them replaced.  Instead having them die at the time they do, is a blow the Emperor's central command and control center.  Which is even more important now that the warps stroms are kicking off and you need the most skilled astropaths.

[Daddywarcrimes]

 

Magnus's arrogance/pride were the reason for his actions and downfall, from older times for going against the Edict and using sorcery to contact Terra, possibly always was later than Isstvan, (not 100% on that last bit) and this is current via Lorgar making this point to him in the opening chapters of Betrayer. Horus changing the message had always been the way it happened in the setting but as to the how, we're only finding that out now

It is not so simple as a linear timeline.  In retrospect it actually makes more sence but it goes like this.

 

Magnus trys and fails to save Horus.

Magnus sets out to tell the Emperor about Horus.

Magnus' attempt damages the wards in the Imperial Palace but the Emperor contains it.

The Emperor sends the Wolves after Magnus and Watch Packs sent out.

Horus changes the the Wolves orders.

Prospero is burned shortly before Istvan 3.

The Wolves are recovering from Prospero and out of contact during Istvan 5.

The wards on the palace finally fail complety after 2 years.

The events in The Outcast Dead happen.

 

What makes this time line more acceptable is that the Astropaths on Terra mostly die after it is to late for Terra to replace them properly.  An event killing the Astropaths before the Heresy really kicks off would just see them replaced.  Instead having them die at the time they do, is a blow the Emperor's central command and control center.  Which is even more important now that the warps stroms are kicking off and you need the most skilled astropaths.

 

 

You're missing the first few items on the list.

 

Magnus makes a deal with Tzeentch to defer the degeneration of the Thousand Sons.

Magnus teaches the Thousand Sons to strike their own bargains with lesser daemons to enhance their powers.

[Stonerhino]

True true but I was just pointing out that because of "Warp".  Magnus' message happens both before and after Istvan. 

[Aegnor]

All of which is compounded by Magnus deciding to use sorcery to warn the Emperor is an awful plot point in the context of the Heresy now being something that lasts for 7 years.

 

The story of the Eisenstein and of Magnus's decision to use sorcery to relay the warning made sense and had dramatic sense when from Isstvan Horus made an immediate lunge for Terra. As did the absence of the Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolfs. Now all of those things are becoming desperately complicated and of dubious logic. If Horus was going to go mooch around Dwell for a year before moving on, why didn't Magnus just get in his spaceship to convey the message? Or use his Astropaths?

 

It's not the authors fault - they have all these fixed things that they have to incorporate, like the sorcerous message, but they have to make them work in a much more convoluted timeline.

 

I really don't think the extra time has offered much to the story, to be worth how much it's messed up the story. /rant

 

Edit: this is not to say that I don't love stories like Betrayer and Know No Fear. Or Vengeful Spirit. But they could have been compressed in timelines a bit and rearranged slightly to be happening concurrently to Horus make a much more direct and speedy move at Terra, while keeping the core of those stories and others intact.

[Perrin]

Horus didn't go straight for Terra because he knew the Emperor had been warned...

 

If Magnus hadn't warned anyone and no loyalists had escaped Isstvan then Horus would have fallen on the Sol System like a ton of bricks.

 

We as viewers/readers know that the Heresy lasts 7 years so we do question why Russ is at Terra and wonder why the Blood Angels got there but the DA and Ultras didn't, but in-universe they have no idea. Horus could turn up tomorrow or he could meander around the galaxy consolidating his power for another decade.

[Aegnor]

But Horus keeps saying that the war will be decided on Terra. What purpose does conquering elsewhere serve when victory can only be obtained at Terra. How much more difficult would the Siege of Terra have been for the loyalists if Horus hadn't given Dorn 7 years to prepare and fortify the Palace?

 

If, as I had previously understood it, Horus had struck at Isstvan III, then bunkered down to weather the inevitable retaliation at Isstvan V, staged the Dropsite Massacre, and then while the Imperium was still reeling from the betrayal of another four legions, lunged straight for Terra? While still dispatching the Word Bearers to delay/cripple the Ultramarine and the Alpha Legion and Night Lords to delay the other loyalists.

 

Assuming Chaos had speeded his fleet and hindered those of his enemies:

- The fortification of the Palace would have barely begun,

- the Space Wolves would have still been recovering and regrouping after Prospero,

- the Blood Angels would have been stuck at Signis Prime,

- the Dark Angels stuck far away from Terra,

- the White Scars stuck prosecuting the cleansing of the Orks world we find them at in BotS unaware the Heresy had even happened,

- the Ultramarines stuck at the far side of the galaxy, then ambushed at Calth,

- the Shattered Legions still reeling and ineffective.

 

It would have been just the Imperial Fists vs the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children and World Eaters. Five legions to one who would be trying to hold a half finished fortress.

 

For a Legion and leader that pride themselves on making a lightning quick thrust at the opponent's jugular, deciding to proceed so indirectly doesn't make sense.

 

All the other theatres we've seen so far - Calth, Signis Prime, Molech, etc could have happened. It's just that they would have been happening between the allies and elements Horus split off to delay the reinforcements getting to Terra and the various scattered loyalist forces. Instead, they're having to invent increasingly complicated mcguffins to explain what Horus and the others are doing instead of getting on with the war.

 

Think some of the stories are also getting tangled up because with the way they've progressed it, just about every action going on has to have some vital implication for the final battle on Terra. Whereas, some of those battles should really be seen as simply diversions or side-plots to the main thrust of the Heresy. If they're well written enough, we should care about the fates of the world's and forces involved regardless of whether the outcome of the battle will result in some concrete outcome at the Siege.

 

Not meaning to drag this off topic, it's just that this decision is what I think has created most of the issues that negatively affected VS and some other titles. And I say that having overall liked VS quite a lot.

[Perrin]

But without a visit to Moloch the Emperor would have torn Horus to pieces.

 

I can't disagree with the rest of your points, but that does all hinge on Horus getting to Terra quickly enough. I'm not entirely sure how far away Isstvan is from Terra, or how long a direct path there would take without any warp disturbances. I imagine it's far enough that Horus needs to stop every now and then to resupply.

[Augustus]

Horus dwelled on Dwell. :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I figured Horus wanted to win an Empire, not just kill and Emperor. He needed to conquer the body before cutting off the head.

 

WLK

[Stonerhino]

Something I didn't like from Wolves of Ash and Fire was that Horus witnessed the Emperor's I smite you out of existance power.  Because if you look at it from Horus' point of view the Emperor has the ability "Utterly destory anyone who faces me in combat".  So it is understandable why Horus chooses to take his time and find a counter to the Emperor.  Rather then just charging half blind with no real counter to the big E.

 

Edit and disclaimer:  I don't like the fact that Horus saw the power because I find it harder for him to rebel knowing that the Emperor can smite him like that.  Without first at least knowing that a possible counter is even possible.

[Aegnor]

I figured Horus wanted to win an Empire, not just kill and Emperor. He needed to conquer the body before cutting off the head.

 

WLK

Kill the head and the rest will crumble and be easy to take. It's the classic example of where they should be the spear tip to the jugular.

[captain Angel]

But we need to remember that a real war can not be won without supplies. Think of it this way:

Forces ba um da etc. into their traps

Deafeats other loyalists at the drop site massacre

Attempts to jump via warp from istvan to sol system

Attempts to take mars to resupply

 

Now if he does not take mars he will have his fleet stranded at the heart of enemy territory, with a supply line that would have made normandy's look like a shoelace and has only 7 under strength legions against a massive imperial navy and army force right on his heels.

 

He would have been a fool not to realize he needed more men, supplies, and a clue what he was attacking. Rushing to terra might have meant fight a half legion of fists, or an impenetrable fortress and an army that was out for blood.

 

He made the right choice, consolidate power and know your target.

[Conn Eremon]

 

I figured Horus wanted to win an Empire, not just kill and Emperor. He needed to conquer the body before cutting off the head.

 

WLK

Kill the head and the rest will crumble and be easy to take. It's the classic example of where they should be the spear tip to the jugular.

In my opinion, exact opposite. Horus and his Legion acting as the speartip worked great during the Crusade, where all they needed is destroy. Others would be there to deal with the aftermath. The actual conquest.

 

But the Heresy is not the Crusade. There is no one else but him that the aftermath would fall upon, if successful. Here, his intent is not to destroy, but to conquer. Here, the speartip can win battles, but it would lose the war.

 

Which is why, whatever the timeframe of past or current canon, the endgame was always the exact opposite of the speartip to the throat. In the end, Horus always bares his own throat to catch the spear.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

thank you Cormac Airt, you beat me to it.

 

I've always seen the reason why Terra wasnt immediately struck was due to Horus's desire to conquer the empire, not just kill the Emperor.

 

Let's say Horus jumped directly to Terra after the Dropsite Massacre. You have various Primarchs who may or may not be directly committed to YOUR goal, you also dont have Magnus yet. (If the current trend of Magnus's loyalty being torn is believable that is...I could see Magnus returning to the fold once Horus is proven to be corrupted just to prove his "loyalty" and rub his father's nose in it)

 

but let's say the attack on Terra happens, the defenses are not yet ready, but the successful invasion of Terra and killing of the Emperor (along with Dorn and the Imperial FIsts) is still going to gut your forces, especially as Mars was still between loyalty. Then, having killed the Emperor, you now have an angry Russ, Sanguinius, the Lion, Guilliman, Vulkan, Corax and possible Khan and Magnus coming after you. Whose legions had not been through the Shadow Crusade, Signus Cluster or Thramas campaign...meaning at near to full strength...

 

so yea, not rushing to Terra seems to be a GOOD move in my book.

 

WLK