Wade Garrett Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 As far as "Kill the head and the body dies", I don't see Roboute, Leman, and Jonson going "Oh, well, Dad's dead. I guess you're the boss of us now, Horus." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3743809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 As far as "Kill the head and the body dies", I don't see Roboute, Leman, and Jonson going "Oh, well, Dad's dead. I guess you're the boss of us now, Horus."I can see leman doing that. mutt dog alpha male concepts and all. He would have rolled on his back and bared his throat in surrender. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3743939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Plus, if Horus doesn't go to Molech first the Emperor would destroy him. Maybe another reason he didn't go to Terra was that he knew first hand the Emperor's real power (A Wolf of Ash and Fire) and needed something that could counter it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3744022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 You all make good arguments and have at the very least made me re-think my position. On one of your collective points: - I don't see Sanguinius, Roboute, Russ and the Lion capitulating because the Emperor is dead. I can see them being divided, splitting into individual forces with no agreement on how to prosecute the war. Roboute would be off building Imperium Secundus, the Lion would be furious at that, rowing with Russ and fighting with Luther. Russ would be berserk with grief. Sanguinius would probably be with him. So I think there'd be the opportunity to take them down one at a time. Perrin - obviously you're right about Molech now, but that was all a new invention in Vengeful Spirit wasn't it? Didn't exist in the lore before that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3744065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 You all make good arguments and have at the very least made me re-think my position. On one of your collective points: - I don't see Sanguinius, Roboute, Russ and the Lion capitulating because the Emperor is dead. I can see them being divided, splitting into individual forces with no agreement on how to prosecute the war. Roboute would be off building Imperium Secundus, the Lion would be furious at that, rowing with Russ and fighting with Luther. Russ would be berserk with grief. Sanguinius would probably be with him. So I think there'd be the opportunity to take them down one at a time. Perrin - obviously you're right about Molech now, but that was all a new invention in Vengeful Spirit wasn't it? Didn't exist in the lore before that? No idea, but I had never heard of it before Vengeful Spirit. I think the old fluff was just that Horus was imbued with the power of Chaos, same as Luther was or Kor Phaeron or any other Chaos Champion. I think Russ would throw himself at the traitors as soon as he heard of the Emperor falling. Very much like the in-universe loyalists, I have no idea what the Khan would do if the Emperor was killed before he got back to Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3744096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 well, considering that Sanguinius, the Lion and Guilliman are currently rebuilding a second Imperium,actingas if all the Imperium is lost, I dont see that happening. And Russ might ACT like a barbarian, but he is not a fool. I dont believe he would go mindlessly at the victorious traitors. the BRB stated that after the Emperor was placed on the golden toilet, the Wolves and Ultramarines led the Scouring. This tells me that even with the loss of the Emperor, Russ wouldnt act a fool. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3744398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It would be an interesting counter factual to speculate about. How, when and where the Emperor died might significantly affect the different legions' response. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3744551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Very much like the in-universe loyalists, I have no idea what the Khan would do if the Emperor was killed before he got back to Terra. "Start again." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3744919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I reckon the Imperial Fists would of been wiped out on Terra due to not giving up if the Emperor had died and Horus succeeded. The Raven Guard would of done what they are doing now, but would of lost their homeworld, as would probably every other loyalist legion. Ultramarines would of went through with Imperium Secundus and reinforced their boarders creating a second Imperium that would probably end up being owned after constant attacks from Horus's forces, then the Tau and Tyranids and Orks to most likely. Russ would meet his end in single combat against Horus like the way Dark Vader hunted down the remaining Jedi in Star Wars, Horus would hunt down the remaining loyalist Primarchs. The Lion would of bent the knee to Horus to save himself. The Khan would of ended up like the Raven Guard, running Guerrilla tactics. God Knows what Vulkan would do, we still don't know what happens to him after normal events. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3744947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I cant see the Lion bending his knee to anybody that kills the Emperor. More importantly, I doubt that Horus would have the capability to start a systematic hunt of the surviving loyal Primarchs down. Its easy to kill an Emperor, but hard to be an Emperor. How would he keep his traitors loyal to him now their goal is accomplished? the Night Haunter would have to be purged, as would Angron. Both of them are too destructive to allow to live. Angron hates Horus only a lil less than the Emperor. The Night Haunter is too crazy, and his...varying attitude would be harmful against Horus's new empire. and how far can Horus trust Fulgrim? He knows of the monster inside him, and has sworn to purge his brother. that leaves who on his side? Mortarion, Perturabo, Lorgar (who has aspirations of his own), Magnus and the twins (and who knows exaclty they are up to?) Not exactly the building blocks of a new Empire. Heck, Horus would probably have to purge his ranks all over again. and while this is going down, the Imperium Secundus is readying itself for war and revenge. I wouldnt want to be Horus. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Doesn't help that the Twins might still have intentions of seeing Horus' empire self-destruct, and might turn their attentions wholesale to that cause. If, that is, they don't self-destruct themselves, as they may be on their way toward. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Thinking of the Alpha Legion's antics makes my head hurt. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGXH Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The Lion would of bent the knee to Horus to save himself. ...Really? His first reaction when Curze told him he'd always be considered a traitor anyway is to say how little he cares for what others think of him and fight regardless. That doesn't seem like the actions of a kneeler to me. After all, loyalty is its own reward. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The Lion would of bent the knee to Horus to save himself. ...Really? His first reaction when Curze told him he'd always be considered a traitor anyway is to say how little he cares for what others think of him and fight regardless. That doesn't seem like the actions of a kneeler to me. After all, loyalty is its own reward. that was my thought as well. I always thought that the Lion would have problems kneeling to somebody he felt should not have been given the title of warmaster after they've killed the Emperor. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I personally think he'd bend the knee just to make sure he survived but then betray Horus. I don't think the Lion is as noble as he wants people to believe, he's not against using underhanded tactics to gain an advantage, and if he has to bend the knee to make sure he isn't wiped out then he'd do it, he's pragmatic, but I wouldn't turn my back to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 He is a knight, and knights weren't exactly as honorable and noble as generally depicted. But regardless, I have a hard time seeing him capitulating to Horus, even just as a show, even if Horus succeeds in killing the Emperor and survives to tell the tale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 One thing to bear in mind is that when the Emperor goes, the Astronomican would also have gone, so only those that Chaos was helping would be going anywhere. (or they might be able to get to Macragge due to the Sothas beacon). That and the Warp incursion that would occur without the Emperor to sit on the Throne, let alone the various impacts on morale, loyalty and purpose would definitely set the loyalists on their heals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 The warp incursion would likely destroy Terra though, or at least turn it into a daemon world. I think that would damage Horus's cause a lot more than the loyalists. He wants to rule the Imperium, not destroy it. Being responsible for the destruction of the throneworld may cause his support to wain with the factions that aren't Chaos worshippers. Imperium Secundus would be the real challenge though. If all surviving loyalists fled there, you'd have Guilliman, Corax, the Lion, Russ and maybe Vulkan, with their Legions and the remnants of the Shattered Legions, in a fortified Ultramar. By that point Horus would be lucky if he could keep Curze and Angron under control, Fulgrim and the EC aren't really much of a Legion anymore, so that leaves him Pertuarbo, Mortarion, Magnus, Lorgar (maybe) and Alpharius (maybe). That looks like a much harder war. Also looks like the background for an awesome tabletop campaign when all of the FW books and Primarchs are released Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Indeed. Although as always, the simplest solution of how to manage Angron would be to point him at the heaviest concentration of the enemy you can find and tell him to kill them all. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 ... The Lion would of bent the knee to Horus to save himself. ... Times like this I wish we had a "flaming angry" button. Not a dislike. For if such a thing existed Id rule the B&C. No, a "super I hate this post" button ;) That said I, am curious to know why. ** Apologies. Didn't refresh. Interesting Cormac. Knights did convert to Islam at times only to repent later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 ... The Lion would of bent the knee to Horus to save himself. ... Times like this I wish we had a "flaming angry" button. Not a dislike. For if such a thing existed Id rule the B&C. No, a "super I hate this post" button That said Im curious to know why you think this. ' I'd already explained why in the quote below, it wasn't to insult anyone or fans of the Lion, I was just postulating that he'd do anything to survive as he's pragmatic, but I don't doubt he'd turn his back on the original idea of the Imperium and so Horus would have to watch his back. I personally think he'd bend the knee just to make sure he survived but then betray Horus. I don't think the Lion is as noble as he wants people to believe, he's not against using underhanded tactics to gain an advantage, and if he has to bend the knee to make sure he isn't wiped out then he'd do it, he's pragmatic, but I wouldn't turn my back to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 No no no. I'm sorry. I don't mean to insinuate your post was wrong or rude. Only that I disagreed with it. (Which makes it wrong ;) ) Sorry for not reading your reasoning earlier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGXH Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I personally think he'd bend the knee just to make sure he survived but then betray Horus. I don't think the Lion is as noble as he wants people to believe, he's not against using underhanded tactics to gain an advantage, and if he has to bend the knee to make sure he isn't wiped out then he'd do it, he's pragmatic, but I wouldn't turn my back to him. My vision differs from this, a little. I think many will agree that he is pragmatic, but to a point- I'd classify The Lion as a very, very disappointed idealist. In his worldview, everybody should be unflinchingly, completely loyal to The Emperor. He was disappointed by Horus turning, but stood ready to oppose him. He was disappointed in Perturabo and Curze, but opposed them. He was disappointed then in Guilliman, but did understand his point. He was even disappointed by Russ stopping to help other planets on route to Terra, and not abandoning all to get to Big E. I can't see him living by being disappointed in himself. As he briefly mentions to a Watcher in "The Lion", while referring to Guilliman, I think he'd sooner throw himself and his legion to certain demise, a spit in the face of armageddon, a last defiant gesture to a fallen brother for the love of a slain father and liege. But of course, that's just me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291702-mortarion-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/6/#findComment-3745938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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