Medusa vs Demolisher

[Ulrock]

Would a Medusa armed with bastion breacher shells work better than a demolisher? I am running death korps assault brigade and can't decide on which. I've tried demolishers and they keep getting smoked. I have both models and also thinking bout using a Observer Tank to spot for medusa.

[David Ravel]

I tried a couple of time a medusa and it was good. Not glorious, but as least good. The 36'' range is good. And with a back of 11, the demolisher will die if someone wills it enough (like a deepstrike or CC), just as the medusa. Behind an Aegis with a camo netting, it can be particularly resilient. You could also try with the platform, it cost less pts. 

[Ulrock]

I haven't tried demolishers in pairs though and everyone claims that is beast mode.

[librisrouge]

@Ulrock. You haven't lived until you've fielded two Demos paired with two Thunderers and get to drop four shots at a very frustrated enemy.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, one is good and two is better! They can dominate sections of the table so well that you can form strategies and tactics around them easily. The Medusa is nice for the range but I think they're best in artillery company lists as they can hang back with infantry support and benefit from all the over AV12 vehicles on the board :)

[David Ravel]

If you play with Thunderer, then I would suggest only use them. Cheaper, and they don't loose much over the Demolisher (unless you're immobilized, then it aint fun anymore). 

[cypherthefallenangel]

I will take madusa tanks over a demolisher every time. The madusas are cheaper with longer range and you can upgrade with the bastion breecher for that extra range and ap1 goodness. I always take 3 of them and they haven't let me down yet.

[Ulrock]

I've been running infantry heavy list but I've come to realize that is suicide in the grim future. So I've been running more mech heavy. I'm still having problems with Tau. Is there a tactica for them? I couldn't find anything. I currently have 2 demolishers but haven't played them together yet. I'll check that out then may look into medusas.

[Frater Cornelius]

That sorta off-topic, don't you think? But anyway. AV14 beats Tau. S7 can't get through it, meltas won't get close if you focus them as soon as their show their hairy butts. Literally the only thing that can possibly 1 shot a LR at range is s10 ap1 from railheads, but that is fairly unlikely. Longstrike could, but you brought Vanquishers or Hydras against him, right?

[Ulrock]

Off topic? I'm trying to seek advice on dealing with Tau and that's the whole reason I posted for demolishers vs medusa. Sorry if that isn't correct protocol. The list I've been running at 1850 I posted in the army list review. I'm going to try out the double demolishers next week and let everyone know how they perform. Thanks everyone for the help!

[Frater Cornelius]

Off topic? I'm trying to seek advice on dealing with Tau and that's the whole reason I posted for demolishers vs medusa. Sorry if that isn't correct protocol. The list I've been running at 1850 I posted in the army list review. I'm going to try out the double demolishers next week and let everyone know how they perform. Thanks everyone for the help!

 

Heh, no offense meant. I just failed to note that you were OP and the whole Tau thingy came out of the blue. My bad, not yours. You did everything correctly ;)

[Ulrock]

So your advice is double demolishers at 1850 vs the double medusas. The only thing that points me towards the medusas is the s10 ap1 bastion breacher. Is that ap1 that much of a difference? In the new rules it gives +2 to penetration but I've got a vanquisher for semi dedicated AT along with meltas.

[Frater Cornelius]

I have no experience with Medusas but I can tell you this much. AV14 is very potent this edition and by having 2 of those advancing towards you with deadly guns, this makes some of people panic.

[FashaTheDog]

Since you are playing the Krieg Assault list you need to stop and consider that much of the standard Guard advice only carries you so far, you need to drag yourself the rest of the way with bayonets and gas masks. Here you can stick to the FOC and benefit from using both as your Medusi will be Heavy Support and you can pay a few extra points to make your Demolishers Elites. The latter can also provide LoS for your barrage weapons as an added bonus too. You also have ready access to the Thunderer if you want a Demolisher, but need to a cheaper version. Then there is the option of allying in the superior (at least for me) Medusa Siege Carriage. With T7, four wounds, and at least three meat shields, unless you buy up to six more, the unit is particularly durable. Combined you can really lay down the Emperor's S10 AP2 Wrath.

Now because of the nature of the list, you will either be playing offensively or defensively based on your build. If you like to push forward then the allied carriage may not be ideal and the Demolisher or Thunderer is better suited, especially if you want to throw in a Death Rider platoon so you can ride around the tanks, toss the Command Squadron's demo charge and hit two units (obviously sending an Infantry Squad or allied Cyclops in first to absorb overwatch goes hand in hand with this). Toss in a Hellhound and you really can make life miserable for Tau. A more defensive build will mean you will want the Medusa, either carriage or spg, and focus on out shooting the Tau. With carcass shells on Heavy Mortars or Griffins adding support, this can terrify Tau players as your shooting phase is more of the 'templates all over his army' phase.

From a cost perspective, the Medusa carriage is the cheapest, with the spg clocking in at 35 points more. The difference here is T7 and a total of six spare wounds compared to 12/10/10 and three hull points. Both have their advantages, but against Tau, the former seems the more durable of the two, but at the cost of mobility. Now with a 5 point splurge over the spg, you get a Russ chassis armed only with a demolisher cannon so you lose the heavy bolter/flamer of the spg and 12" range but gain that coveted 14 front armor and a boost to side and rear as well. So here we have increased durability against most shooting with only Fusion Blasters, Nova-charged Ion Accelerators, and Railguns being the main threats. These three all wound the artillery Medusa on 2+, but only the Ion Accelerator can do more than a single wound, which considering makes the cheapest option to best able to resist it, although there is the fact that "lesser" weapons (S4+) can potentially kill crew as well. This means the carriage is still probably the most durable due to the fact you will be farther away with it, but it cannot redeploy if Tau start fleeing and does lack the ability to screen advancing assault units from Tau fire. Finally at the most expensive, at 25 points more than the Thunderer and 65 more than the carriage, you get the Leman Russ Demolisher. Just like the Thunderer, but it adds back the heavy bolter/flamer and has the option to upgrade that heavy bolter to a lascannon and/or take sponsons in one of four fun flavors, although these can increase the cost by another 15 to 55 points, depending upon the chosen options. Unlike the other options, however, for 35 more points on top of that, you can boost it to BS4 and move it to Elites with the spotting bonus. This makes the most expensive choice the most versatile option.

To summarize, the allied Siege Regiment Medusa carriage may be the most cost effective by points and FOC position, although unless you go Unbound, you will be limited to a single unit per allied Troops and HQ (minimum 120 points). However, it is a strictly backfield unit that will not move (it could but that requires losing two turns of shooting and a separate Trojan to tow it). At the other end of the spectrum we have the Thunderer and Demolisher which can both help you advance Death Riders, Cyclops, infantry, or whatever other unit(s) you want across the table or in the assault. A compromise between range and mobility is the Medusa spg which grants mobility, but still cannot sit on the front line and be the spearhead you use to crush the filthy xenos.

I believe the ideal here may be to mix and match and support with heavy mortars with carcass shells (AP4 ignores cover makes blue xenos cry ). Using the carriages to provide cheap covering fire with either Thunderers or Demolishers pressing the advance. You can then use Griffins or Heavy Mortars to thin the infantry so your 'assault' assets can use the Leman Russ hulls as protection. The bastion breacher shells would not be necessary here as the more aggressive tanks supported by the durable rear artillery covering their flanks (as well as your infantry physically providing cover to the tank's flanks). With the heavy mortar fire you can ensure your infantry is not facing heavy pulse rifle/carbine fire and can better support your armor.

[cypherthefallenangel]

My only problem with the demolisher is you have to get close to your enemy for them to be useful. Where as the madusas with camo can hang out behind your lines in cover (3-4+cover save) and be just as effective.

The demolisher tanks might be good squadron mates for punisher Pask.

[FashaTheDog]

My only problem with the demolisher is you have to get close to your enemy for them to be useful. Where as the madusas with camo can hang out behind your lines in cover (3-4+cover save) and be just as effective.

The demolisher tanks might be good squadron mates for punisher Pask.

He cannot take Pask as he is using the Death Korps of Krieg Assault Brigade; the closest he can get is the BS4 and move lone tanks to the Elites slot (they cannot squadron), an option which is cheaper, but without the Crack Shot rule.  It is worth noting that a Punisher in the Krieg list is a very poor choice as the Elite version gets an average of 13.3 S5 AP- and two S5 AP4 hits that require line of sight and do not ignore cover.  By comparison, a battery of three Heavy Mortars with carcass shells is a S5 AP4 barrage 3, ignores cover, shred, gets hot and costs 35 points less, making it the same price as the Heavy Support Punisher that only hits half the time instead of two-thirds the time.  If you add in the heavy bolter sponsons to the Elite version that is another four heavy bolter hits on average, but now adding a fourth Heavy Mortar to the battery is only 5 points more.  If you need the mobility, a battery of three Griffins with carcass shells is still 5 points more than the single Elite Punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and the Griffins get to re-roll the scatter dice as well. 

 

To preempt the question of why would you want to approach the enemy, Krieg is the aggressive Guard.  One of the Assault list's special rules allows the Krieg player to place an objective only they can claim 6" from the enemy table edge that is worth 2 VPs.  When combined with WS4, krak grenades as a mandatory upgrade almost army wide, and if that optional objective is placed the ability to recycle destroyed Infantry Platoons, Krieg armies can be rather daunting in the assault.  You wouldn't think that making a Guardsman WS4 means that much, but when you reduce being hit by Marines from 2/3 to 1/2, you can actually put those superior numbers to better use piling on the armor saves for your foe to fail and it makes Marine armies very sad when they lose that 3+ to hit and are actually having their Scouts hit on a 3+ by Guardsmen.  With the addition of Death Riders, which are 4 points more per model plus the 10 Krieg tax in exchange for an extra wound and point of WS plus FNP (6+) and re-rolls to dangerous terrain, your assault can be devastating.  Yes I understand Death Riders cannot take special weapons, but they come in platoons and the JO can take a demo charge.  Even just spending 205 points on the command and one squadron can add that terrifying extra oomph to make the tanks they are hiding behind secondary to the advancing infantry and cavalry force behind. 

 

That makes closing with the enemy and his melta not actually be a problem, but rather a selling point for the Demolisher or Thunderer as the advancing av14 can shield softer assets closing with the enemy.  Since he is looking for help smashing Tau specifically, multiple av14 tanks advancing abreast with infantry hiding behind can be a tough nut to crack, especially if backfield artillery is punishing any Tau units attempting to skirt around to the sides or rear.  This is one of the biggest reasons why three or four Leman Russ (any chassis) without sponsons driving right for the enemy, sides touching, and preferably with a table edge holding one flank is a great option for Krieg Assault Brigades, no matter who you face.

[Ulrock]

Probably sticking with the demolishers. A pair I brought today destroyed probably double their points. Atleast 60% of army was killed or ran away from them. Granted it was only a 1,000 pt game.

[PureFodder]

While it won't work for DKoK, a nice combo I've started using is to take Thunderers and Enginseers.

 

Most people have sense enough to position themselves just out of range of the demolisher cannon (24" + 6" movement). However Thunderers are not heavy tanks, allowing them to move 12". The enginseer then moves up behind giving it PoTMS allowing it to fire.

 

It effectively makes the Thunderer a fast tank that ignores crew shaken results, which helps to get around the limited range issues.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Having seen a lot of Tau die while I was playing with them over the last year, I'd say it largely depends on what he's bringing to the party. If it's Riptides, then Plasma and Lascannons are your best bet. Either that, or send a blob in with a Primaris Psyker armed with a Force Axe. If it's Crisis Suits, then you have Battle Cannon-esque plates galore to use. Barrage would work well to circumvent any cover they're hiding behind. 

 

Tau have extremely weak Troops, Flamers and especially Heavy Flamers will melt them effortlessly. They also really struggle against AV14, with only Fusion Blasters as a real answer. (Longstrike really does suffer from the one-shot syndrome.) Riptides now get significantly less Smash attacks, and so aren't as great for crushing Armour like they used to. Really, just keep the inevitable suicide solo Melta Crisis Suits away, and you're golden. Coteaz would do this beautifully.

[FashaTheDog]

You really need to fix the title of the thread to mention that you are using Krieg.