Chariots gone mad? Hope new FAQ soon.....

[Seahawk]

He's not joining a unit that contains vehicles.

 

He IS a vehicle that's joining a unit of infantry. What's the problem?

[Nehekhare]

he is not a vehicle, he is transported ("riding") in a vehicle. but while at it, may I now join my hammernators with lysander inside a landraider to my warlord titan?

 

technically, since he himself is a vehicle (and ICs are not allowed to join units containing vehicles), he is not allowed to join any unit that contains him.

 

I can understand that, though. I wouldn't join a club that accepts someone like me either.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't know for sure (at work) but it doesn't matter if he loses his IC status does it? I mean, doesn't the vehicle count him asa passenger and therefore no one else can get on board nor him leave to join a unit?

 

Killing the blighter seems like a challenge but actually 10 Marines would tie him up indefinitely in many games thanks toihis low amount of attacks. Think like the Necron player - what circumstances would you want to avoid with the Barge? Would you want to charge a Terminator squad with him? What about that Chapter Master with an AP2 weapon who is going to challenge your Overlord?

 

Essentially, evaluate his position from your opponent's perspective and do what he wants you to NOT do.

 

Etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

/hands up

Not familiar with the Chariot rules in the slightest.

 

Do you 'embark' a Chariot?  Or is it a 'mount' like a Jugger of Khorne?

[Dam13n]

It's effectively a mount, just one with it's own profile.

 

A character cannot leave his chariot once purchased, if one dies - they both die.

 

He effectively becomes a rider much like the exalted alluress and exalted flamer always have been.

[Seahawk]

That's why I was figuring he could join units. Reading further into it, it says it's a dual profile for the rider and vehicle. Characteristic modifiers that affect one will affect both. Here's a couple other differences:

- A transported unit cannot be hit. A chariot rider can.

- A transported unit cannot fight in close combat. A chariot (and rider) can.

- A non-walker vehicle cannot charge. A chariot can.

There are other differences as well that point this class of vehicle to be very, very different to normal ones. The one problem is that it also says "A rider cannot disembark from his chariot." This would imply that he's embarked, except that no words ever say that he is. Given the many differences, it stands to reason that his occupancy is treated differently, and that if he retains his IC status he can join units.

he is not a vehicle, he is transported ("riding") in a vehicle. but while at it, may I now join my hammernators with lysander inside a landraider to my warlord titan?

No, because:

- Lysander is in a vehicle, the unit is outside it.

- The Warlord Titan is not a character.

technically, since he himself is a vehicle (and ICs are not allowed to join units containing vehicles), he is not allowed to join any unit that contains him.

No, that's circular. Would you argue then that a unit can't shoot, because once it shoots it will have shot, and a unit that shot cannot shoot again?

The chariot rules, like the psychic phase, terrain, buildings, and etc are quite messy. If only they'd produced the full set of rules at the release, instead this half-set...

[Gentlemanloser]

Seahawk, the obvious design is "who cares aobut these little wrinkles.  Do. What. You. Want!"

 

GW don't care they've thrown out sloppy rules, when it's obvious they just want us to do whatever with them.

 

Sadly. :(

[netminder69]

 

 

 

Chariots don't have Sweep attacks in 7th.

 

 

Necrons have still sweep  attacks on their onw, in page 52, dont know what you mean they dont havy in 7th.

Where do you see this? Just went through my Necron codex and didn't see it. I have the iBooks version, so page numbers don't mean anything to me. What section?

Command Barge page of the Necron codex under Special Rules between Living Metal and Symbiotic Repair.

Also, in the Necron FAQ, first page, right hand side, 4th entry.

Interesting. It's not in my digital codex.

[Captain Idaho]

Do the rules state the model counts as an embarked passenger of any type? If so the that's conclusive. I'll check when I get home.

 

It's also conclusive that a vehicle cannot "move into coherency" since coherency is applicable to units and not vehicles, except vehicle squadrons. Being an independent character becomes an obsolete rule in this case.

 

If we want to have this discussion further then perhaps take it to the OR?

 

Moving back to the discussion; what can we do to hurt said Barge? I'm thinking multiple high strength AP1 & 2 hits are the way forward.

[Seahawk]

He is never stated as being "embarked", as that would mean it's a transport, and not following the rules for chariots. Does being an IC not matter? Which advanced rule overrides the other? Madness!

 

High strength AP1 and 2 has always been the answer for vehicles. Lascannons and multi-meltas are a go!

[Nehekhare]

that's circular. Would you argue then that a unit can't shoot, because once it shoots it will have shot, and a unit that shot cannot shoot again

 

That is not circular, that is a temporal fallacy and has nothing to do with my argument.

 

the barge overlord is defined by having a dual profile - one of which is a vehicle. It is simply by the logic of this definition of a chariot that he cannot join other units because those units would then contain vehicles, which are prohibited for ICs (vehicle or not) to join. It is not illegal per se, but creates an illegal situation and thus is illegal to do.

[Seahawk]

But there are no vehicles in the unit he's joining.

 

because those units would then contain vehicles

 

Just like a unit that can't shoot because when it shoots, it will have shot.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm of the opinion, firmly, that if a model takes an action or is upgraded and the final result is illegal, then it doesn't matter if the technicalities allowed us to go down this road, unless an explicit exception to the rules has been stipulated.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Rider of a chariot is Embarked in a Vehicle.

 

Page 86;

 

 

 

A rider cannot disembark from his Chariot

 

Thus, an IC is embarked in a vehicle and cannot join any other unit.

[Seahawk]

Ah, but nothing ever says he's embarked, the vehicle does not have a transport capacity (so he can't embark), and many other rules interactions make him being "embarked" not possible. I mentioned that line before, but all it does is make things more confusing because of its impossibility. In fact, it specifically states "A character mounted on a Chariot is referred to as the rider." Not embarked; mounted, just like a bike, or steed, or etc.

 

Let's just chalk up this one to "GW can't write anything correctly ever", and return to the discussion of how to take down chariots before they get to you.

 

In the case of daemons, you point an autocannon at it, considering its negligible armor. The problem becomes then that they are very, very cheap, ranging from 40 to 125 points. Someone can simply overwhelm you with targets. 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I believe there are lists out there with like 9+ chariots in them! Such things need decisive destruction.

[Fibonacci]

The Necron chariot needs a S10 weapon (or psychic power) pointed at it.  That way he either takes the very likely penitrating hit on the chariot and lose the shielding or risk Instant Death from one hit on the rider.  Either way, good things happen and the model can be finished off with plasma and autocannons.

[Captain Idaho]

The rules allow for an all or nothing approach. Kill one and the other falls too this is good!

 

A 3+ invulnerable is good but it's not a guarantee. Ultimately it's hard to bank on, but a hard counter if you have multiple cracks at it.

[Seahawk]

That 3+ inv is quite the devil to deal with. S10 is hard to come by, and anything less will either be tanked by the rider or bounce off entirely.

 

AV13, 2+ armor/3+ inv on rider, 4+ Jink on vehicle (because the twin-linked tesla will still get lots of hits), phylactery to come back (on a 4+ with res orb!) with multiple wounds, able to get protected in combat, able to fly and chop without getting bogged down, can go real fast...

 

All for a mere 285 points! :lol:

[Sn4k30r]

add some tesseract or scarabs, for challenges, or MCs... easy.... needs a bit nurf i think....             

 

You hve chances when you charge it, cause u choose  where hits taken

[Captain Idaho]

It can get bogged down. That's the saving grace I suppose. Against Orks it could be fairly vulnerable to power claws so it's a case of being sure to shoot the Nobz squad or Warboss.

 

My Overlord is just going to sport a Weave, Warscythe and Phase Shifter on his Barge. 240pts but saves points for elsewhere. Though a beautiful set of Mindshackle Scarabs wouldn't go amiss so it can target bigger beasties and win.

[Seahawk]

Exactly. Just keep challenging with the character until the nob is dead or runs away. 'e ain't gonna krush da shiny robot!

 

Massed fists/klaws that aren't characters (which currently doesn't exist outside of terminator squads) will get him; single models will not, with the mindshackle and everything else.

 

Ooo, guardsmen Veteran squads with Demolitions will make light work of it, once the sarge is dead!

[Captain Idaho]

Oh they just might actually. I'm sure the Park Punisher make a dent on even AV13. A few HPs at least.

 

Exorcist tanks are also a solution if multiple tanks concentrate on it. After all, 3+ S8, AP1 wounds to save takes its toll, so allowing them to hit the Barge becomes an option that could very well mean curtains.

[Dam13n]

Blasts look to be pretty useful as well as they always hit the Chariot and can't be taken on the Rider.

 

So, looking at AV13, you'll want S9+ (ideally with ordnance) to have a good chance of getting a pen and breaking the shielding.  Plus, with Chariots being open-topped, you'll get an additional +1 on the damage chart.

 

So, Vindicators, Medusae, Basilisks, Manticores would all be decent, as would anything with a Str D Blast weapon.

 

Once the shielding is gone, it's a lot less survivable - AV11 is easily glance-killable.

[Captain Idaho]

Awesome information matey. I forgot about that! So an orbital bombardment with the help of the Tactical Doctrine (clever deployment before hoping into a Land Raider) will see an ordnance S10 AP1 hit on an open topped vehicle!