opinions on the guard superheavies in 7th?

[hornywingythingy]

Just wondering what people's thoughts were on our Lord of war options? With lords of war likely becoming more accepted in the 40k tournament scene, I was considering adding one to my guard, but unsure which one, or if I'd be better just getting some gk allies for them to shore up some weaknesses?

[Ishagu]

Can a Lord of War be part of an allied detachment?

 

Also, I too am curious as to what people think is now the best variant...

[Thoqqu]

Allied detachment, no.

Second combined arms detachment? Yes, Meaning you need hq and 2 troops to get second low and fort.

Will that be allowed in tournaments? Not likely...

[Frater Cornelius]

In friendly games, sure. They are a lot of fun and a sight to behold.

 

In competitive play? Despite the vehicle buff in 7ed, my answer is still 'no'. Given the firepower of the most competitive armies you will lose it by turn 2, even 1 if you unlucky.

If it blows up you will give the enemy 3VP just like that AND lose approx. 30% of your army. Besides, BS3 on all of those LC and HB are nothing to write home about.

You can park a Techpriest and primaris behind it and increase it's durability. But they still give awah free VP for every 3HP gone and still cost the same as 3! LR tanks.

 

If you have access to Forge World, I'd say get the Praetor Armoured Assault Launcher. For 300 points that thing is insane and will make a greater difference than most BB variant.

 

As for non-FW super heavies I have only 1 thing to say: get a bloody Knight. They are so great in an IG army and I LOVE fielding my walking cathedral of doom. I could spend hours telling you why that thing is worth it.

 

Anyway, that were my 2 cents.

[David Ravel]

I have a Warhound and three BB variant. I don't plan on using them in small games. But after playing with my friends Knight, I ordered 2 of them. Try them out, they rock. 

[librisrouge]

Seems to me that, with Victory Through Attrition gone, Baneblade variants are completely viable. I recommend the Baneblade, Shadowsword, or the one with the twin big ol Gatling guns (it's transport ability is great for an assault blob.)

 

I fully intend to add my Baneblade into play occasionally.

[hornywingythingy]

If it blows up you will give the enemy 3VP just like that.

Errm according to the FAQ they only give away the bonus vp if you are playing the escalation missions, which you don't need to play to use a low now. That's a pretty big change.

[march10k]

My shadowsword is 565 points...that's nearly 1/3 of my points in a single model.  Not really viable in competitive play, especially with the D weapon nerf, although  strength D still represents "four up or die" to pretty much anything that isn't a superheavy.

 

On the other hand, with the "you get a second FOC at 2k" thing out of the way, maybe the standard game size will go up in order to accommodate these centerpiece models without unbalancing the army?  

 

The thing about getting a second lord of war and/or a second fortification with a second combined arms detachment gave me a FANTASTIC idea...two skyshields.  They're terrain, not buildings, there's no armor value to pen or anything, so you can't blow them up...and now I can put two of them in opposite corners of my deployment zone for 4++ invuls for my tanks while guaranteeing flank shots against the enemy....muahahahahaha!

[Frater Cornelius]

If it blows up you will give the enemy 3VP just like that.

Errm according to the FAQ they only give away the bonus vp if you are playing the escalation missions, which you don't need to play to use a low now. That's a pretty big change.

Ah okay, I missed that part. Well, in that case, allow me to use some more in-depth analysis. I am not someone to disagree with other people's opinions (unless they are stupid and not mine) So here we go:

There are 3 BB variants which I consider actually be quite good. Them being the Stormlord, Shadowsword and Banehammer/Stormsword. I will first talk about the general tactics and their benefits to an army before I get to the major flaw at the end, which is shared by every BB variant.

First up, the Stormlord. In a typical 40k game you will most likely face a high numbers of AV12 and less vehicles and 3+ or less infantry. This makes this tank very valuable. While bad against heavy vehicles on his own, he is capable of spewing out 30 s6 ap3 shots in addition to his HB and LC fire (which is token at best). The other big draw is that it counts as open topped for shooting purposes and lets you fire 20 weapons out of it.

This open up very potent but risky bunker tactics. Load up a platoon with a good number of LC into the Stormlord and then fire away. You can fire separately with the crew so let them focus on AV13 and higher things while the mega bolter can fire at infantry and light tanks, potentially taking out a 1-2 units a turn. With Prescience (also loaded up inside) it can force down fliers and will be a thorn to FMC, which are usually 3+.

The risky part is that if the Stormlord dies, you can bet your a..rmy that everything inside will too.

This combo makes an excellent fortress to camp a certain point on the map with enough firepower to go around.

The Shadowsword. Considered by many the best variant because of the S-D weapon. And to some extent, this is true. Destroyer hits are powerful, even with the recent nerf. They can force an enormous amount of invul saves and when targeting a bigger squad it can outright remove them. This is also the only BB variant to have BS4. So with such a powerful main gun at BS4, why do I rank it below the Banehammer and Stormsword? Because the power of it's main gun isn't as great as you might imagine. Sure, it can do massive damage to a vehicle, but that's about it. A S-D against a regular squad or dudes is just as powerful as a Demolisher hit. They most likely do not have an invul save and they all wound on a 2 and ignore armour. Hell against light infantry the 120 points cheap naked Eradicator does it just as well. Against MC you can only get 1 hit under the blast. After that you need a 6 to outright remove it. Hell, against DP a Demolisher does the same with s10 instant death. A 5+ is hard to make at times. Sure, the 2-5 of an S-D weapon causes D3 wounds, but that still leaves your average MC with 2-3 to go if no invul save is involved. So against everything that is not a vehicle there is a tank that does a very similar job at a fraction of the cost.

I bashed this thing so much, why did I still place it as the 2nd best BB variant in my eyes? Because it is an excellent vehicle hunter. IG can muster enough anti-infantry shooting to balance that out (*cough* Wyvern *cough*). Sure, it can deal with a Screamer Star but c'mon, do you think a screamer star players will bunch up when he sees a S-D large blast? You won't get more than 2 hits, I guarantee that.

As for the BB variant that I have the most respect for, it's the Banehammer and Stormsword. I take those 2 into the same category because they are basically the same tank, one of them being more expensive but has a few more goodies, while the other is a budget version with the same idea. What do I like so much? The Massive Blast (Banehammer) / Apoc Blast (Stormsword) with s10 ap1 ignores cover. This thing is a bit worse against tanks and MC than the Shadowsword (but still effective), but is so much more potent against everything else (except fliers). The thing is, their blasts are so large, that they are literally incapable to miss everything. So if you are aiming for that infantry squad, you are going to hit the one next to them as well as the vehicle behind them. So, unlike the Shadowsword, which has to choose it's targets, this thing can just fire like crazy. Sure, it only has 36" but that is enough in a regular game of 40k.

From here on you can decide which variant you want. The Banehammer has a smaller blast (in relative terms) but has an extra AC and an extra demolisher shot. Given that the s10 ap1 gun is a turret, you can blast 2 targets with s10 goodness (and the token HB fire). That is a lot of destruction. I would think twice before approaching this tank with my army, and I rarely think twice when approaching big tanks.

The Stormsword is cheaper because it lacks the Demolisher shot and AC but has a bigger blast, as such being slightly more effective against non-vehicle spam and saves some points. I can not say which is better, because the Banehammer gives extra goodies proportionate to the increase in points.

Sure, the Shadowsword can take down titans and other super heavies down better but you will not see that many in 40k. In 40k you need to regard the rest of the army and cover as much as possible. These two do and are my top BB variants.

So, I have talked a lot about positives and even admitted to have a lot of respect for the Banehammer/Stormsword, as much that I will not smirk arrogantly when I face one because it is a VERY dangerous tank.

But now comes the reason why I will never take a BB variant into my army: putting too many eggs in one basket. This might sound simple, but stay with me, I'll explain.

When it comes to competitive play, it is all about point efficiency. How can I get the most out of my army with a given amount of points. Studying Economics at university I am very familiar with maximization problems, so I feel right at home here.

Let me first say that BB variants will shine in the 750-1250 bracket, simply because there is not enough AT on the field to deal with AV14 9HP SH tank. But at 1500+ (where most tournaments start to pop up), it starts to lose value rapidly. Let us look at the current meta: tripple Riptides, Wraithknights with 2 s10 ap2 shots with the option to twin link the psychic powers, screamer stars, FMC spam, deep striking meltas and AV14 spam. A BB will go down by turn 2, sometimes even turn 1 when you are playing 1850+. Hell, even at 1500 it might make boom if the opponent is lucky or has an anti-list or a lot of DS meltas. By blowing up a BB, the opponent not only takes out 1/3-1/4 of your army, he neuters it. Chances are you skipped on other big guns to bring a BB, thus leaving you with little firepower. Maybe you build around it and added Tech Priests as well as Primaris Psykers. In the end, what you will get at 1500 is 2 troops, most likely platoons, a LR HQ Squad or a cheap HQ and some heavy support to go. That is rather few models on the field.

When facing that, people will direct their heavy fire at the BB while their light anti infantry fire will aim at your troops to prevent you from scoring. You might take out a few of the enemies big guns, but the BB will go down eventually, leaving you with a crippled infantry force.

If you decide to play unbound, then all the enemy needs to do it to keep the BB occupied and rush to secure objectives. You either focus on the troops, leaving the big guns to kill the BB or you kill the big guns and the troops with score. You can not focus everything when so much is put into 1 gun.

And here comes the next problem: you pay 450+ for what essentially mounts up to one gun. And yes, there are LC and HB, but let's be honest, you might as well skip them. Sure, they get the occasional kill but are nothing spectacular either.

One gun can only fire at one target. Well, a few more in the case of the Stormlord and Stormsword, but you can not target everything. This is not efficient. You can get a similar result by having several smaller guns targets the enemies units individually and that need to be taken out individually. When one blows up, you still a few to go. Then the one big gun blows up, there will be nothing left. For the price of a Stormsword I can get 2 Wyvern and 2 LR Demolishers. While the Stormsword can cover a few units back to back, it is not as specific. Something you need to hit units that are further apart. So 2 Wyvern will shoot those units causing a lot of wounds and a pinning check while 2 LR demolishers aim at 2 targets. During the enemies shooting phase, what are you going to shoot at? Stormsword of cause. But at what in the other variant? The LR Demolishers? The Wyverns? You split your fire, thus weakening the blow. If he focuses, you still have 3/4 of firepower left.

Another, albeit very short reason, is that tanks are weak to melee. I do not thing that this requires a lot of explaining.

Lastly, my final reason: the explosion. Face it, if the BB blows up, it will blow up close to the rest of your guys, causing you to lose a lot of additional units. If it does not blow up, you are either rather lucky, or the opponent was no match for you and you just 'won more'.

And this is exactly what the BB is, a 'win more' unit. If the opponent can not match against it, you will obliterate him. But if the opponent has an answer (and most do), chances are that you will lose too much of points and there would be nothing that one gun could've done.

So, this is my short analysis. I consider the BB a VERY fun and fluffy unit. It is a blast to play one of those, but only in friendly games. Once we move into competitive territory, they lose a lot of value in the most popular 1500-1850 bracket due to so many guns designed to take out such units (among other things).

But do not let that discourage you or lose faith in your BB. Firstly, maximum efficiency is only demanded in high end play and I do not think that most 40k do (or want for that matter) to participate there due to cheesiness and bad odor (sorry). Secondly, any unit can work in certain lists. Though it is not the best unit in most lists, I am sure there is a list that turns the BB into a beast. They are not as common though.

I stand by my words. The Knight is superior in a IG army when it comes to competitive play. As to why, I would need to write a 'Tactica - Imperial Knight in AM army' to do the matter justice. Seeing as I have no idea where to post it and that most won't bother to read it, I won't for now

[hornywingythingy]

^ I'd read it, and cheers for that very well thought out discussion of the pros and cons, one small point (the only mistake I spotted!) you were talking about having a primaries in the tank casting prescience on it, now psykers on transports can only cast witchfires! I'd probably run one in a conscript blob to bubblewrap the BBvariant to somewhat protect from melta and stuff.

 

But yeah, you have convinced me, I think I'm gonna spend the cost of the BB and escalation book on some more guard tanks and try a 7th ed leafblower style list with more wyverns and Leman russ tanks acting as av14 cover. Vets in chimera to run interference and be superscoring. Basically all I need is the wyverns and a manticore or two.

[Frater Cornelius]

^ I'd read it, and cheers for that very well thought out discussion of the pros and cons, one small point (the only mistake I spotted!) you were talking about having a primaries in the tank casting prescience on it, now psykers on transports can only cast witchfires! I'd probably run one in a conscript blob to bubblewrap the BBvariant to somewhat protect from melta and stuff.

But yeah, you have convinced me, I think I'm gonna spend the cost of the BB and escalation book on some more guard tanks and try a 7th ed leafblower style list with more wyverns and Leman russ tanks acting as av14 cover. Vets in chimera to run interference and be superscoring. Basically all I need is the wyverns and a manticore or two.

Yeah, I forgot about the psychic thingy. Then just do it like I do now with my Primaris. Let him solo footslog and hide behind the BB to cast Prescience on it. And thanks I have a 1500 list that might interest you in the army list section. It is an aggressive variation of the classic leaf blower.

[Thoqqu]

Reading this in bed before sleep so don't have my books at hand but I thought that superheavies ignore weapon destroyed among other things?

[Frater Cornelius]

Reading this in bed before sleep so don't have my books at hand but I thought that superheavies ignore weapon destroyed among other things?

 

They do. The only thing that can happen is a Chain Reaction instead of explosion. This causes the SH to lose an additional D3 HP. By 'gun blows up' I meant the BB being destroyed and subsequently it's gun ;)

[hendrik]

i recently fielded a stormblade and while it's dammage output was nice, it still wasn't superb, and it had "big juicy target" written all over him. in turn 2 the necrons blew him up in a single volley due to tank hunter. i feel 450 pts of wyverns would have done a much better job, with a lot of increased survivability.

[march10k]

I have a bone to pick with the "might as well skip the sponsons, they won't do anything" bit. I couldn't agree less. The main obstacle to fielding lascannons in an IG army isn't BS3. It's T3 and 5+ armor. Weapons in 40k are costed according to their damage potential with ZERO regard for the survivability of the platform. Hence, a lascannon on a guardsman is extremely foolish. These sponsons are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Not only can they not be destroyed unless the tank itself goes up in flames, they're individually targetable. You can have one side of the tank shooting at target A with two lascannons or two heavy bolters (depending on the target), the D weapon shooting at target B, and the other side of the tank shooting at target C. Even with Heavy 1 shooting, you're getting a hit per turn from a lascannon OR 4.5 hits per turn from a heavy bolter, for 50 points. It sounds expensive, but it's a lot more points-effective than running around with heavy weapons teams that die to a violent sneeze!

Overall, I agree that the Banehammer/Stormsword is better suited to regular 40k, and that none of the BB variants is a particularly good idea at 1850 or less (actually, I said it first ), but skipping the sponsons, while it puts fewer eggs into an already overloaded basket, makes the tank less points-efficient, not more. 455 points for a naked Shadowsword is a crummy deal compared to 465 for a shadowsword with four sponsons and a hull heavy bolter that can each be targeted independently (although you'd ALWAYS fire both sponsons on each side of the tank at the same thing, or fire both front sponsons' lascannons at the main gun's target and fire the two rear sponsons singly at other stuff). If you're going to field a superheavy at all, take advantage of the fact that the sponson weapons are the most survivable lascannons/heavy bolters you'll find in the IG arsenal, and then invest in a prescience caster...even if you shoot at six separate targets, the whole damned tank is twinlinked! One more thing...get a flippin' skyshield for a juicy 4++, it's terrain, not a building, so it can't be destroyed. For 75 points, you just doubled the survivability (against shooting) of a 500 point model!

/edit/

STOP THE PRESSES! I just realized that the lascannons and twinlinked heavy bolters, while you have to buy them as a package, are separate weapons. In fact, when you assemble them, the lascannons are mounted in turrets on top of the TLHB sponsons (and labeled that way in the instructions), and they swivel independently of the sponsons...so you potentially have four lascannons, four TLHB, a hull-mounted TLHB, and the main gun...potentially addressing ten different targets! As I said before, it's smart to fire as many weapons as have enough S and have LOS at one target, but the options!!! 110 points to go from just a main gun to NINE extra weapons is cheap!

[Frater Cornelius]

I have a bone to pick with the "might as well skip the sponsons, they won't do anything" bit. I couldn't agree less. The main obstacle to fielding lascannons in an IG army isn't BS3. It's T3 and 5+ armor. Weapons in 40k are costed according to their damage potential with ZERO regard for the survivability of the platform. Hence, a lascannon on a guardsman is extremely foolish. These sponsons are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Not only can they not be destroyed unless the tank itself goes up in flames, they're individually targetable. You can have one side of the tank shooting at target A with two lascannons or two heavy bolters (depending on the target), the D weapon shooting at target B, and the other side of the tank shooting at target C. Even with Heavy 1 shooting, you're getting a hit per turn from a lascannon OR 4.5 hits per turn from a heavy bolter, for 50 points. It sounds expensive, but it's a lot more points-effective than running around with heavy weapons teams that die to a violent sneeze!

Overall, I agree that the Banehammer/Stormsword is better suited to regular 40k, and that none of the BB variants is a particularly good idea at 1850 or less (actually, I said it first ), but skipping the sponsons, while it puts fewer eggs into an already overloaded basket, makes the tank less points-efficient, not more. 455 points for a naked Shadowsword is a crummy deal compared to 465 for a shadowsword with four sponsons and a hull heavy bolter that can each be targeted independently (although you'd ALWAYS fire both sponsons on each side of the tank at the same thing, or fire both front sponsons' lascannons at the main gun's target and fire the two rear sponsons singly at other stuff). If you're going to field a superheavy at all, take advantage of the fact that the sponson weapons are the most survivable lascannons/heavy bolters you'll find in the IG arsenal, and then invest in a prescience caster...even if you shoot at six separate targets, the whole damned tank is twinlinked! One more thing...get a flippin' skyshield for a juicy 4++, it's terrain, not a building, so it can't be destroyed. For 75 points, you just doubled the survivability (against shooting) of a 500 point model!

/edit/

STOP THE PRESSES! I just realized that the lascannons and twinlinked heavy bolters, while you have to buy them as a package, are separate weapons. In fact, when you assemble them, the lascannons are mounted in turrets on top of the TLHB sponsons (and labeled that way in the instructions), and they swivel independently of the sponsons...so you potentially have four lascannons, four TLHB, a hull-mounted TLHB, and the main gun...potentially addressing ten different targets! As I said before, it's smart to fire as many weapons as have enough S and have LOS at one target, but the options!!! 110 points to go from just a main gun to NINE extra weapons is cheap!

Okay, first of all. While the Skyshield is nice, it is again putting 75 points into a 500+ unit and it comes with a major drawback: it has a dead zone. What are tank most vulnerable to? Melta and melee. Both are short ranged. Now examine the weapons on a BB, they are on the hull, not in front of it. While it does not matter if the target is in front or above the BB, it does matter if it is below it. If a melta transport or melee unit or deep strike managed to get close to the skyshield, is it very likely that either the skyshield itself, or the hull of the BB, will obscure it, making the BB open to an attack. Sure, you can bubble wrap with conscript, but that is another 50-75 points you put into this combo. Dangerous.

As the the sponsons, yes they are ok, but the main reason you buy the BB is the main gun, not the sponsons. At BS3, only 2/4 LC will hit (disregarding rerolls). Then you also need to look at the overall cost, while 50 points for a TLHB and LC is very adequate with 30 going to get TLHB and 20 for the LC (presumably), the overall cost does matter too. Sure a Shadowsword is more effective at 565 than 455, but it is 100+ points more expensive. Add to that all the support and you can easily dedicate 1k points solely to the BB.

The other thing is that the HBs pale in comparison to the main gun, which is going to make the biggest difference in the end. But I still have to agree on the HB, if you are buying a BB then you might as well go all the way and add more dakka to it, especially since it is not restricted to a target. The guns I have a problem with are the LC, there are so many better and cheaper ways to get them, like on the hull of a LR for only 10 points. Forward Sentries Veterans that can accept orders and super-score. Vendettas.

But in the end, yes, I have to admit that the sponsons can be useful because they can not be destroyed or hindered and can split fire. I probably should rephrase myself. The HB and LC fire is not token, it is token compared to the big gun. Taken on it's own it is still potent and a decent addition to a BB, should you take one. But there are, as always, more efficient ways ;)

[WarriorFish]

Since not taking sponsons doesn't improve the side armour to AV14 I don't think there's a reason not upgrade to any more. If you're taking a SH you may as well do it properly and the additional guns to spit out more death are always useful.

[march10k]

 

Okay, first of all. While the Skyshield is nice, it is again putting 75 points into a 500+ unit and it comes with a major drawback: it has a dead zone. What are tank most vulnerable to? Melta and melee. Both are short ranged. Now examine the weapons on a BB, they are on the hull, not in front of it. While it does not matter if the target is in front or above the BB, it does matter if it is below it. If a melta transport or melee unit or deep strike managed to get close to the skyshield, is it very likely that either the skyshield itself, or the hull of the BB, will obscure it, making the BB open to an attack. Sure, you can bubble wrap with conscript, but that is another 50-75 points you put into this combo. Dangerous.

 

 

Shenanigans.  Nothing in the rules says that a vehicle can't depress its weapons to shoot below the horizontal plane. If you can draw LOS from a vehicle's weapon, even down, you can shoot at the target.  Considering that the main gun overhangs the hull by quite a lot, the enemy will lose the ability to target the shadowsword if it gets too close, because it will not be able to see anything but the main gun...which they can't target, although it is perfectly free to shoot at improbable angles at them!  Ah, GW's crummy rules set!  There's no dead zone.  There would be in reality, but in 40k, not so much.

 

 

As the the sponsons, yes they are ok, but the main reason you buy the BB is the main gun, not the sponsons. At BS3, only 2/4 LC will hit (disregarding rerolls). Then you also need to look at the overall cost, while 50 points for a TLHB and LC is very adequate with 30 going to get TLHB and 20 for the LC (presumably), the overall cost does matter too. Sure a Shadowsword is more effective at 565 than 455, but it is 100+ points more expensive. Add to that all the support and you can easily dedicate 1k points solely to the BB.

 

Two problems with that.  First, in a well-designed army, everything supports everything, it becomes very difficult to say what can and can't be called "strictly for the support of X."  Second...you could blow up a bunch of points on a blob to wrap around the tank and so on to pile up a thousand points, if that was your goal, but I think the tank, a skyshield, a prescience caster, and a techpriest with servitors is about where efficiency ends.  Taking four servitors and ML2, that's 795 for two chances at perfect timing (in addition to prescience) and it's AUTOMATIC repair of a hull point per turn.  You don't need to buy a 50 man blob to keep the bad guys off the tank, you can do that with the stuff, inclucing vehicles, that you already have, until after the drop pods land, then move out to accomplish the task of the day.

 

 

 

The guns I have a problem with are the LC, there are so many better and cheaper ways to get them, like on the hull of a LR for only 10 points. Forward Sentries Veterans that can accept orders and super-score. Vendettas.

 

I'm not a believer.  LR hull lascannons only snap-shot if you fire ordnance (or, in most cases, move).  Forward sentries should have autocannons, the best all-rounder in 40k.  They can take lascannons, but just throwing that out there while ignoring opportunity cost...?  Vendettas...are awesome.  They're also expensive, fragile, and guaranteed not to shoot until at least turn two.  The one HUGE plus for vendettas is that, being fliers, they're going to be excellent at killing other fliers.

 

I continue to share your opinion that BBs are too many eggs in one basket for a competitive game of 40k, but you're wrong about the sponsons!

[Ishagu]

Guys, the rulebook states that we should count D strength weapons as being strength 10 after a wound is caused.

This means that the Volcano Cannon will still remove things like a DP from play after inflicting a single wound.

D weapons got a nerf in the way that they allow cover and invul saves, however they can now cause instant death to t5 units and below...

[Frater Cornelius]

Guys, the rulebook states that we should count D strength weapons as being strength 10 after a wound is caused.

This means that the Volcano Cannon will still remove things like a DP from play after inflicting a single wound.

D weapons got a nerf in the way that they allow cover and invul saves, however they can now cause instant death to t5 units and below...

Which puts it en par with a demolisher shot or the Banehammer and Stormsword against single models like DP. The only difference is that D can force more invul saves with D3 wounds instead of one. But against t6 it comes less relevant in the big picture since the SS will only be able to shoot at one target if the enemy is smart.

[WarriorFish]

Maybe a a change for the best though?

[Frater Cornelius]

Indeed. It tones down the SS in character killing and adjusts it very well to the 40k rule set where ignoring saves has become very powerful. Removing on a 6 and allowing invul on 2-5 is still very strong but not far beyond other things in 40k.

S-D has been hit as well but not as much seeing as the amount of wounds caused is usually greater than a large blast thus forcing more saves and greater chance to remove on a 6. Also S-D melee weapons are usually attached to things that can stomp. Another reason I think the Knight has the edge.

[march10k]

I still say D weapons should have been written to ignore cover and cap invuls at 5+.  I mean, seriously, standing in a treeline is going to protect you from a weapon designed to perforate strike cruisers???  A storm shield gives you the right to laugh at turbolaser destructors and shrug off that stupid chainsword on the knight?  C'mon, man!  As a deathwing player, I should be in favor of the D weapon nerf, it lets my crusader-mounted thundernator squads hunt superheavies...but it's just not credible.

[PureFodder]

The Malcador Infernus with Chem ammo may be the most useful superheavy for IG in regular 40k games. It's not prohibitively expensive, coming in under 300pts if you don't upgrade the sponsons and excels at wiping out masses of troops with an AP2 poison 2+ hellstorm torrent flamer.

 

It's useless against vehicles, but IG don't really have any problems in taking out enemy vehicles.

[cypherthefallenangel]

With the D nerfing im leaning towards the stormsword with its 36" S10 AP1 ,10"blast, ignore cover cannon for a support roll.

With battle brother able to ride in allied transports the stormlord also has some great potential. I was thinking of a 30 man blob, a DA pfg toting techmarine and 4 servitors (4++ and auto repair), 2x priests, ezekiel (+1ws ), a primarus psyker, and a interrogator chaplain riding in style till I want to erase something.