Any one use Interceptors and yes what configuration

[boreas]

Re-read the rules this mornig and turns out Sigvard is right. The rule is written "before" the actual rules, in the presentation of the Psychic phase (it's even in bold). So, while it's not clearly situated in the whole rules, the rule by itself is pretty clear.

[Gentlemanloser]

In that case, can anyone explain *how* your Mastery Level works out the number of powers you can cast?

 

There's no explaination.

 

Is it ML total?  ML+1?  ML-1?

 

There is no actual rule mechanic to explain any limit.  Bar WC costs (and can't cast same power more than once).

 

I'm happy to accept that your Mastery Level limits the number of powers you can cast, if we use ML+20 as the limit. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nowhere in the 'Psychic Phase' of the main rulebook does it say 'you can only cast a number powers equal to your Mastery Level'. In fact, under 'Manifesting Psychic Powers', the only restrictions are that A: you need enough unused Warp Charges to make the attempt (ie minimum 1 for Mastery 1, minimum 2 for Mastery 2 etc) and B: no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase. 

 

That's it. Nothing about 'you can only cast a number of powers equal to your Mastery Level'. Mastery Level only matters with regards to warp charge generation, and the actual generation of powers before the game starts (ie you get a number of rolls equal to your Mastery level, plus the Primaris for free if you have Psychic Focus of one table). 

 

The bold text under 'Mastery Levels' is not a rule, it is a guide statement. 'The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level' refers to the fact that a Mastery 1 can use two powers (Primaris+rolled power), a Mastery 2 can know either 2 or 3 powers, etc etc, plus Force if they have a Force weapon. You can't cast powers you don't know obviously. That's all that statement refers to. It never restricts your number of powers being manifested, it simply introduces the concept of 'you only know a certain number of powers on a psyker, which relates to their Mastery Level'. 

[boreas]

I disagree. the text is pretty clear and straightforward. It's not a guide statement, It's a rule, written in the rulebook.

 

'The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level'

 

Here you go. A psyker can use a number psychic power equal to his mastery level. No restriction on the mastery level (so a ML1 psyker can use a single WC3 power) or the number of warp charge he can expand (could throw the whole pool).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The statements:

 

A: 'The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level'

 

and 

 

B: 'A psyker can use a number psychic power equal to his mastery level.'

 

are not the same. Also, it's guide text, it is not a rule. Because under the actual 'Manifesting Powers' section, it never mentions such a restriction anywhere. Which is the logical place it would be mentioned, as it directly relates to 'okay so how many powers can I manifest?'. The only two stated restrictions are 'do you have enough warp charge dice to attempt it?' and 'have you already cast this power from this psyker this Psychic phase?'. If you don't meet either of those criteria, you're free to manifest. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Boreas, *how* does it depend?  What's the dependancy?

 

Equal to is the assumtion, only becuase that's how it was in 6th.  But the whole Psychic system has changed.  There's no reason to think that the new Pssychic Phase has anything in common with how Psychic Powers used to work in 6th.

 

So, how does it depend? 

[boreas]

That's the weak point, I admit. A dependance relation is usually 1:1, though. If I tell you the number of attacks a model can make in CC depends on it's attack stat, you'll obviously use 2 attacks for a character that has A 2.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless you've charged, or are using two CCW. ;)

[boreas]

Same for psychic powers: max powers as per ML, but you can have items (like Staff of Ahriman, IIRC) that can boost the number of powers. I expect more of them to appear, as weel a "special" terrain features (warp nexus, or whatever the Narrative will Forge!)

[Gentlemanloser]

Or, you get two Powers with ML1 (that's a minimum), and you can cast 1 WC worth of powers.

 

With casting more powers an option if you get more WC from other places.

[Quozzo]

The statements:

 

A: 'The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level'

 

and

 

B: 'A psyker can use a number psychic power equal to his mastery level.'

 

are not the same. Also, it's guide text, it is not a rule. Because under the actual 'Manifesting Powers' section, it never mentions such a restriction anywhere. Which is the logical place it would be mentioned, as it directly relates to 'okay so how many powers can I manifest?'. The only two stated restrictions are 'do you have enough warp charge dice to attempt it?' and 'have you already cast this power from this psyker this Psychic phase?'. If you don't meet either of those criteria, you're free to manifest.

Its not a guide but a rule, its even in bold so it shouldnt be ignored. Manifesting powers is the criteria required to use a specific power. There is no need to retiterate that you can only cast a power if your PML allows as its not the correct section and it's already been stated.

[jeffersonian000]

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can manifest will always be dependent on their Mastery Level because a Psyker can only manifest powers that they know, the the number of powers they are based on their Mastery Level. An ML3 can roll for 3 powers, gain a Primis via Psychic Focus, and wield a Force Weapon, netting upto 5 powers that can be manifested each turn. Dependent does not mean only.

 

SJ

[tiberius183]

Which kinda sucks, because now we have to decide whether or not we want to use Hammerhand or activate our Force weapons...

[Quozzo]

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can manifest will always be dependent on their Mastery Level because a Psyker can only manifest powers that they know, the the number of powers they are based on their Mastery Level. An ML3 can roll for 3 powers, gain a Primis via Psychic Focus, and wield a Force Weapon, netting upto 5 powers that can be manifested each turn. Dependent does not mean only.

SJ

A librarian who is PML2 rolls for a santic power and a divination power. He also has his force weapon power and so knows 3. A GKGM who is also PML2 rolls twice on the santic table and so knows 4 powers. They both have the same power mastery level but are capable of using a different quantity of powers So PML doesn't depend on how many powers you can manifest if you follow your logic. A psyker (the henchman warband unit) has a PML1 and rolls on the santic table, gaining the power rolled and the primaris so he knows 2. A GKBC who is also PML1 rolls on the santic table and also gains a power +primaris, but also has access to the force weapon power. It too does not depend on it power level to cast a certain number of powers. The BRB states that the number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on its power level. It later goes on to say that the number of power a psyker knows is equal to its mastery level (which is blatantly wrong btw so you need to discard a few :P )

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course the number you can use per turn depends on your PML.

 

Your PML1 Psychic with 1 rolled power, the Primaris and a Force Weapon rolls a 1 on the WC d6.

 

With the 1 WC from his PML he can only cast two powers, and *cannot* use his Third.

 

If he was PML2 with three powers (no Psychic Focus, two random Powers and a Force Weapon), he could use all three.

 

PML can be easily demonstrated to have;

 

1) No limit on the number of Powers a Psychic can know.

2) No limit on the number of Powers a Psychic can cast.

 

The only important thing is the number of Warp Charges you have to use.

[Quozzo]

You've lost me. No-one disputing #1 (well, maybe) as that does say "equals", but #2 is open for debate.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you have 10 Warp Charges, and a PML1 Psyker in your Army with both Hammerhand and Force.

 

Where is the rule that states the Psyker can't use 5 Warp Charges to manifest both?

[boreas]

I agree with Quozzo. Seem clear to me that "manifesting" a power explains how to manifest that one power, independantly of other actions the psyker can do in the psychic phase. The Preamble clearly state though, that this " manifesting" a power can only be iterated a number of times dependant on the PML.

 

Edit: GL: because there is a limited number of powers the psyker can manifest. No limit on warp charge (in the whole text), but specifically on the number of manifestations. Pretty clear to me.

[Gentlemanloser]

What's the limit?

Show that, and I'll happily agree.

Edit: Check the 5 step summary of manifesting powers.

That summary, and the whole section, has not a single mention of limitng the number of power you may attempt to use based on PML.

Not a single mention in the *entire* rule section of manifesting.

you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit

No restriction based on PML.

[Sigvard]

Come on guys its pretty clear what the rule states -  all that is happening now is trying to eke a different meaning out of the sentence.

 

"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use depends on his Mastery Level."

 

To be honest I don't really mind how you read it but it is in the Core Rule Book, in the Psychic Phase section and is printed in bold under the heading mastery levels, it is a rule not a guide statement. If we are using the logic of its a guide statement are we also saying that "Models that are removed before their initiative step can no longer attack." which is written and placed and highlighted in bold in the exact same manner -  is just a guide statement.

 

It is reasonably simple and whilst I know it makes the Psychic Phase for Grey Knights not as powerful as it could be we should be dominating any psychic phase that we come across (apart from maybe against Eldar.) -  the number of powers you can use depends on your mastery level -  My Grey Knight Strike Squad knows - Force, Hammerhand and Banishment and is Psychic Mastery level 1.

It is the Psychic Phase and I have rolled 4 for my Warp Charges -  then I had 2 for my 2 Strike Squads, another 2 for my Rhinos with Psychic Pilot and a final additional dice for Brother Hood Champion -  I have 9 dice.

 

I am want to have Hammerhand on my Strike Squad but I am also going into combat with a Monsterous Creature without Eternal Warrior so I also want Force - but the number of powers i can use depends on my mastery level which is one -  ergo I can use one power per psychic phase. In this situation it gives you a clear tactical dilemma which it should do! But as I have my Brotherhood Champion in the unit he can be used to cast the power I couldn't cast with my Strike Squad.

 

I don't mean to sound like a d-bag and stuff because you guys have helped me with more rules queries than I can shake a stick but in this situation the rule is clear and I have had this debate with one the staff in my local Games who has great experience with the rules (which makes a nice change to be honest) and eveyr way I tried to find around I was wrong.

 

EDIT - The one thing I will concede is that the rule could more explicitly state that you cannot use more powers than your psychic mastery level -  but I believe it was said above that items such as the Staff of Ahriman allow you to manifest more than your mastery level - I would fully expect when the GK Codex drops that there will be such as item as a Chapter Relic.

[Gentlemanloser]

But that sentence *is* correct.

 

The number of powers you can use does depend on your PML.

 

But *no where* is it used, or listed, as a limit on the number of powers you may (attempt) to manifest in a round.

 

That is holding on to an old ruling, from an out of date edition.

 

Here's another question.

 

Does a power that you fail the roll for, or is denied by your opponent, count as a manifested power that counts against your PML limit?

 

Yes?  No?  The rules don't cover this.

 

Because there is no limit based on PML...

 

"The number of power a psyker *can* use".

 

Does that mean successful?  Unsuccessful?  Denied?  What does it mean?

[boreas]

Agree with Sigvard... You're reaching GL! Depends is directly related to the number, like number of attacks. The rule is clearly written under "Mastery levels" because that's part of what Mastery level determines (with the number of warp charge generated).

[Gentlemanloser]

Reaching?  :P

 

I'm obviously not reaching when no one can actually explain how the limit works.  Or what's classed as a 'use'.

 

The rules do not support, in any fashion, a limit on the number of powers 'used' based on PML.

 

When you have to hand wave away the non existence of the rules, you've got to admit there's something wrong with the interpretation you've taken. ;)

 

Unless someone can show whether a successful, unsuccessful or denied manifestation are all 'uses'. :)

[Valerian]

A dependance relation is usually 1:1, though.

That is a rather bold assertion, actually. How do you intend to demonstrate that "a dependence relationship is usually..."? 

 

If I tell you the number of attacks a model can make in CC depends on it's attack stat, you'll obviously use 2 attacks for a character that has A 2.

There are actually tons of examples in the game of when a model's attacks are not, in fact, 2 in a given situation, despite that model having an Attacks characteristic of 2. Yet it is still correct to say that the number of attacks that a model can generate in close combat is dependent upon the Attacks characteristic.

 

If, in fact, the games designers did intend for a Mastery Level 1 model to only be able to cast a single power in a psychic phase, regardless of how many powers he actually knows, and how many Warp Charges generated in his pool, then they have just made psychic powers completely irrelevant for games of 40k. This runs completely counter to what the Jervis Johnson video explaining this intent of the incorporation of a psychic phase to 7e is.

 

 

Regardless, this exact rules dispute has already been discussed over in the Official Rules sub-forum (which is the proper place for such things).

 

EDIT: I'll happily shoot off a note to the rules reps at the Black Library after dinner, as well.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Regardless, this exact rules dispute has already been discussed over in the Official Rules sub-forum (which is the proper place for such things).

 

Has it?

 

How did I miss that? lol!

 

Well I'll be....

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291599-manifesting-psychic-powers/

 

As the linked thread mentions, look at the Witchfire rules on page 27.

 

Rule permission to use (unlike shooting) "serveral different withcfire powers".

 

Again, with zero mention of a limit based on PML.

 

Have a guess what limit *is* mentioned though?

 

;)