Witchfire and Psychic shriek

[TheDevourer]

Okay so going through the rules the thought has occured that we may now have to roll to hit prior to using psychic shriek.

 

Page 198

"Psychic shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18"

 

Page 27

"Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Similarily a witchfire power must roll to hit, unless it has the blast special rule ... or is a template weapon ... pyskers can make snapshots"

 

Am i reading this right? Because this would greatly decrease the value of psychic scream especially if you were in a situation where the fmc for example has to snapshot at its target due to jinking or for other reasons.

 

 

[SvenONE]

It's funny because PS in 7th is worded the same as it was in 6th save for the new range.  I remember having the same discussion a few times with a few different players since it's the only one of its kind that has no strength or profile.  The power itself functions similarly to the Necron Cryptek Abyssal Staff but that is a clearly defined item: Shooting attack, Template, S8 AP1, but comes with a special rule that stipulates using Leadership as the strength of the unit.

 

However, that said I've always used it as a witchfire like all the rest, so I've always rolled to hit, despite it not saying it's an assault profile.  It's a good point about the jink though and with the way Jink is written, I think you are going to have to roll that as a snap shot.  Maybe one day an official word will be given by GW in a FAQ, but I doubt it...

[Ushtarador]

It's a witchfire and it always had to roll to hit, right? o0 I never liked it, too many variables for it to work reliably.

[TheDevourer]

I've been questionning some top tier tournie players and apparently it has always been so. I just never had the fortune to play against someone who did so on tournaments and never thought about it myself ;).

 

So thanks for the answers guys. Question has been answered.

[Venemox]

Do we roll to hit for things that don't produce hits?  Psychic Shriek has no Strength because it flat out wounds a model, so there's no need to compare S/T.  It's profile essentially says 'I wound you'.  Following the normal Shooting Sequence (Nominate  Unit to Shoot, Select a weapon, Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties, Select Another Weapon), I ask you, at what point do we insert Psychic Shriek into the equation.  Having no profile, it doesn't 'fire shots'.  Unlike a weapon that would  Assault (3d6-leadership), when we roll to hit is not defined in this power.  Do we roll for the power as a whole, do we roll for each wound inflicted?  Why?  For all intents and purposes, the powers description seems to skip straight to Allocate Wounds.

[Raeven]

You still have to roll to hit.  All PS really does is allow you to skip the roll to wound phase.  You go straight to determining how many wounds you deal.  

[Venemox]

When do you roll.  Is it one shot that does 3d6-Ld wounds, or 3d6-Ld shots that do one wound?

[Gentlemanloser]

But, as bought up from the GK thread on this, what is the profile?

 

How many shots?  Is it an Assault or Heavy shooting attack?

 

How do you resolve it as a shooting attack, when it has no shooting weapon profile?

[Dam13n]

If we think back, Lash of Submission was the same. No weapon profile, yet as a psychic shooting attack it had to roll to hit, which was reinforced via FAQ.

 

The witchfire rules in the current edition are clear, a witchfire power has to roll to hit unless it's a template or blast, which will use their own methods of hitting the enemy.

 

Psychic Shriek is neither a blast nor a template so needs to roll to hit before it's effect can be determined.

[Venemox]

GML, you added the part about rolling to hit before it's effects are determined.  That's not in the rules, at all.  With the other random Witchfires, when you roll for the randomness is inherently obvious as they are presented as a shooting weapon profile.  In the case of number of shots, that's before rolling to hit.  This case is different, as the required specificity is absent.

 

We are told to resolve Witchfires (with regard to saves, Snap Firing, and hit allocation) 'as with any other shooting weapon' and 'in the same way as for any other shooting attack'.  Yet this power neither produces hits, nor allows saves.  In a case where no hits are produced, why are we rolling 'to hit'?

[Gentlemanloser]

In a case where no hits are produced, why are we rolling 'to hit'?

 

Becuase the Witchfire rules specifically tell us that all Witchfire powers have to roll to hit.

 

How do you roll to hit, if you don't have a weapon profile?  How many shots?  Is it a Heavy Weapon?

 

Witchfires can Snap Shot.

 

If you moved in the previous Phase, do you roll to hit with PS as a 'normal' shot or a Snap Shot?  If it's a Heavy Weapons or an Assault one makes a tonne of difference.

 

But we're not told.

 

As I said in the GK thread, all it needs is something like "Any Witchfire Power without a Weapon Prifile is treated as an Assault 1 weapon".

 

 

 

Psychic Shriek is neither a blast nor a template so needs to roll to hit before it's effect can be determined.

 

So as a Snap Shot if you've moved?

[Ozshock]

im not sure any of you are correct...

 

i would assume the roll to hit would just be determining how many wounds you inflict...ie the 3d6 minus Ld...

 

it doesnt actually state in the power itself how many "shots" you make...just how many "wounds"...so one would assume and rightly that you dont need a "to hit" roll

 

there is no assault or heavy profile, no strength so what are you wounding against?

 

if you got 3d shot minus Ld then how do you wound? or if it hits then is that an auto wound?

 

the 3d6 is the amount of "wounds" you cause therefore the 3d6 is already the shot...

 

edit: and because it is 3d6 wounds caused...there is no snap shot as it doesnt take into account the users ballistic skill

[Raeven]

Wow.  I'm not even going to try and track all that.  You guys are all over the place.

 

You roll to hit using the Librarians BS, just once per unit.

 

If you hit the unit, you roll to determine the number of wounds caused by the PS.  3d6 - ld.

 

 

 

Now, it can be argued that you cannot assault after using a witchfire power.  As you guys have said, the power's do not have a shooting profile.  But special exception is made to allow Units that use witchfire to shoot and run/flat out in the following phases.  No exception is made for assault.

[Ozshock]

but the power clearly states...3d6 WOUNDS...not 3d6 shots then wounding on X...

 

read the spell...ill summarise for you

 

witchfire - range 18"

roll 3d6, subtract leadership

the target unit suffers a number of wounds equal to the result

no armour or cover saves

 

yes it does state it is a witchfire, probably an oversight by GW imo, maybe it should be a malediction...but how do you hit the target? is it a single roll? one would assume so, but it doesnt say...merely states the unit takes 3d6 -Ld wounds...how do you hit if the power has no shots?

 

edit: i guess it would be right then to assume that it requires a single hit? then the unit takes 3d6 -ld wounds...but this doesnt make sense to me

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

You roll to hit using the Librarians BS, just once per unit.

 

Your Librairan moved in the Movement Phase preceeding the Psychic Phase.  So PS must be a Snap Shot as BS1 right?  If it's not a 'Heavy' Weapon, can you show where it's a Rapid Fire/Assault one?

 

(Basically, this is a mess.  The rules fail here.  All withfires - if not Blast/Template - require a To Hit roll.  Which is something defined in the rules, and not the powers Ld roll. But Witchfires without a Weapon Template don't have enough information to work.  As I said, all it needs is a line giving all Witchfires without a Weapon Template Assault 1 or something)

 

But PS does require a To Hit roll.  The rules are epmhatic about that.

[Quozzo]

Aren't all psychic shooting attacks treated as assault unless specified?

 

Alot of people are saying that because it lacks a profile it cannot shoot, but the profile doesn't determine if the attack can shoot, the profile is only used after the roll to hits have been made. As PS doesn't need a strength or AP then there is no need for a profile, you determine wounds like it says in its rules. It also doesn't say that it automatically hits a unit so as per the witchfire rules you need to roll to hit.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Aren't all psychic shooting attacks treated as assault unless specified?

 

Nope.

 

 

 

Alot of people are saying that because it lacks a profile it cannot shoot, but the profile doesn't determine if the attack can shoot, the profile is only used after the roll to hits have been made.

 

Not true.  The Profile lists the number of shots you make, and whether you need to roll to hit in the first place (Blast/Template).

 

With no profile, how many times do you roll to hit with PS?

 

Once?

 

Twenty?

[*Furyou Miko]

Snap firing upon movement is a special artifact of the Heavy rule.

 

Psychic Shriek does not have the Heavy rule. There fore it does not Snap Shot upon movement.

 

Now all we need is for someone to tell us whether assaulting after shooting is an artifact of the Assault rule, or if forbidding it is an artifact of the Rapid Fire, Heavy and Salvo rules.

 

You all need to stop looking at things as whole, contained units - it's not "this is a shooting attack with these rules". It's "this is a shooting attack, which is then modified by weapon type and specific special rules."

 

Basic shooting attack rules: Roll to hit at target within line of sight and range. All models in the same unit must shoot at the same target. Consult your weapon profile. Unless your weapon allows you to fire it multiple times, you may only fire one shot.

 

Witchfire rules: This shooting attack is used in the Psychic phase. The unit may fire at a different target in the following shooting phase.

 

Psychic Shriek: This is a witchfire. It does not allow you to fire multiple shots, so you may only shoot once. It is not a Heavy weapon, so you are not restricted by the Heavy Weapon rules (Snapshot unless Stationary, Assault after firing). It is not a Rapid Fire weapon, so you may not fire twice at half range, and are not restricted by the Rapid Fire weapon rules (assault after shooting). It is not a Salvo weapon, so [... and so on]. Its profile is replaced by specific rules, which override the rolling to wound and armour save rules.

 

A weapon's profile only overrides the basic shooting rules under specific circumstances - for example, if it is a Template, a Beam, or has its own special rules.

[Raeven]

All shooting prevents assaulting afterwards, unless they have the Assault profile.

[*Furyou Miko]

Then you can't assault after using Psychic Shriek (unless you're Relentless or Slow and Purposeful). I've edited my prior post to reflect this.

[Dam13n]

All shooting prevents assaulting afterwards, unless they have the Assault profile.

Or pistol profile. In fact being unable to charge is listed in all weapons except assault and pistol.

So one could make the case that as Psychic Shriek is not Rapid Fire, Salvo, Heavy or Ordnance then you can still charge after using it, as you are not pointed to any weapon type that contains the wording "models that shoot with ____ weapons in the shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing assault phase" (reference - page 41-42)

Just like you aren't pointed to Snap Shooting as psychic shriek lacks the Heavy/Ordnance weapon type.

[*Furyou Miko]

OK, upon examining the rules as written, the only forbiddance on assaulting is if you have shot with "weapons with the Rapid Fire, Salvo, Ordnance or Heavy" types.

 

So yes, Witchfires without those types allow you to assault.

 

Also, Pistol rules say "A pistol is an Assault weapon that can be used as a close combat weapon". ;)

[Raeven]

All shooting prevents assaulting afterwards, unless they have the Assault profile.

Or pistol profile. In fact being unable to charge is listed in all weapons except assault and pistol.

So one could make the case that as Psychic Shriek is not Rapid Fire, Salvo, Heavy or Ordnance then you can still charge after using it, as you are not pointed to any weapon type that contains the wording "models that shoot with ____ weapons in the shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing assault phase" (reference - page 41-42)

Just like you aren't pointed to Snap Shooting as psychic shriek lacks the Heavy/Ordnance weapon type.

That seems a stretch to me. The rules specifically mention all of the possible things you can do after using a Witchfire power. If Close Combat was meant to be one of those things, it would have been mentioned. I feel it was left out on purpose. A lack of permission to do something by the rules is not by default permission.

This would also include ramming as being disallowed by psyker vehicles as well.

[Quozzo]

You are allowed to assault by default, its in the rules. Weapons with the rapid-fire, heavy, salvo and ordinance prevent you from assaulting. Psychic Shriek is neither of those.

[Raeven]

You are allowed to assault by default, its in the rules. Weapons with the rapid-fire, heavy, salvo and ordinance prevent you from assaulting. Psychic Shriek is neither of those.

Where does it say that?