Witchfire and Psychic shriek

[*Furyou Miko]

"Who can charge?" at the start of the Assault section.

[Ozshock]

where does it say you CANT assault in the rules after using psychic powers? or even shooting? if a weapon has no weapon type (ie salvo, rapid fire, heavy etc) then why wouldnt you be allowed to charge?

 

The rules specifically mention all of the possible things you can do after using a Witchfire power. - Raeven

 

does it specifically mention you are NOT ALLOWED to assault in the following assault phase? no? then you can assault if you so choose

just sounds to me like you wanna pick the rules apart...there may be no end to the amount of conflicts there is...but im pretty sure psychic shriek is as answered as it is going to be...

 

you still have to hit the target according to the witchfire rules...so roll one die and use the psykers BS to determine if the shot hit...

there is nothing in the ruie restricting either snap shots after movement, or assault after firing (no Heavy, Ordnance etc rules)

 

anything else you will have to wait for an FAQ...cause thats as clear as it can be without conflicting MANY MORE rules than you already have...

[Raeven]

If the rules tell you what you can do after using a witchfire power, then how do you come to the conclusion that you can do something it doesn't mention?  

 

Most other witchfire powers have a weapon profile.  PS does not.  So we can only do what the rules tell us we can do, since they took the time to specifically list a few things we can do with witchfire powers.  The rules don't tell us we can charge into close combat unless the witchfire happens to have the assault profile.  Having no profile isn't explicit permission.

 

And yes.  We need a FAQ.  At the very least, PS needs a weapon profile.

[bradstorm]

Being able to assault in the assault phase depends on the type of weapon fired in the SHOOTING phase. As psychic powers are resolved in the psychic phase, it would have no affect on assaulting later in your turn.

 

Please note the full wording in the first paragraph describing withcfires. Yes, under normal witchfire powers you would have to roll to hit. But the paragraph also goes on to explain that models can take saves against wounds caused by the power. It is clear from this that this is only meant to be a basic set of rules for witchfires.

 

However parts of this will get overruled by the PS rules, which specifically and clearly states that what to do when making an attack: 18", 3D6- Ld wounds , NO armour saves permitted.

 

The last part regarding no armour saves shows that the PS profile is meant to overrule to more basic witchfire rules on page 27. much like codex overrules rules on specifics, the more specific rules of PS should overrule the more basic rules of Witchfire

[*Furyou Miko]

THat's really stretching it, Brad.

 

Anyway, the rules only state how manifesting a Witchfire power affect the shooting phase, because it's a shooting attack and that needs clarifying. Otherwise, they're treated like Shooting Attacks. Which means that they follow the normal rules for Shooting Attacks, except where specified.

 

Which means they follow the same rules for what you can do in the phases after Shooting as Shooting does.

 

You can try and twist things as much as you like, but the truth is: Psychic Shooting Attacks are shooting attacks that are used in the psychic phase and do not prevent you from acting normally in the shooting phase. That means that they follow all the normal rules for shooting attacks. Including how they affect the Assault phase, how they roll to hit depending on weapon rules, and how wounds and saves are allocated.

[Ushtarador]

The basic rule is that a model is allowed to make a charge. This is overwritten e.g. by rapid-firing a shooting weapon. Since psychic shriek does not disallow a charge, the basic rule that a model is allowed to charge still holds. That's how I see it.

[Raeven]

The basic rules are models are allowed to shoot, run, move flat out, and turbo boost too.  Why mention only those when using Witchfire's without a weapon profile and not close combat? 

[Ozshock]

if it doesnt specify what type of weapon it is...heavy/ordnance etc...then IF it disallowed assaulting afterwards, then it would explicitly tell you it didnt...but it doesnt mention it at all...

 

If the rules tell you what you can do after using a witchfire power, then how do you come to the conclusion that you can do something it doesn't mention? - Raeven

 

if a rule doesnt tell you that you cant do something, then why wouldnt you be allowed to do it? if the rule doesnt say what profile it is...assume it doesnt have a profile and therefore no restriction on assaulting after shooting...why would you even ask if you could assault? or have to Snap Fire after you moved? it doesnt say you have to then you DONT have to...

[Raeven]

You can't see where that logic backfires on itself?  

 

The rule didn't have to tell you that you can shoot, run, move flat out, or turbo boost.  You can do so normally unless something prevents it, right?  So why mention those specific things?

[Morollan]

if a rule doesnt tell you that you cant do something, then why wouldnt you be allowed to do it?

 

Too....many....negatives!

 

*head explodes*

[Dam13n]

 

if a rule doesnt tell you that you cant do something, then why wouldnt you be allowed to do it?

 

Too....many....negatives!

 

*head explodes*

 

 

The first OR kill of 7th edition... Cookie for Ozshock!

 

Though, probably best to try and keep things on topic, thanks.

[Teetengee]

The reason that witchfire powers specifically list all the shooting phase activities is because witchfire powers in previous editions prevented these activities. They are a reminder that the old prevention no longer exists. GW often does this sort of thing when new rules allow something by omission. They add an explicit allowance to make it clear.

[thepowerofwar]

What I remember all powers in general tell you step by step on how to resolve the power/shooting profile(when I get a chance to check the book I will).  So the way we have been it has the shooting restrictions  like LOS for it but it Never states like other powers an "if it hits" type thing to resolve the rest of the power.

[bystrom]

I want to point out that there are at least two other witchfires that also require to-hit rolls but have special effects: Haemorrage and Purge Soul.

 

Since they are both focussed witchfires, which do not hit automatically (they use the normal witchfire rules, which require to-hit rolls), and since neither effects specifically mentions hitting automatically, they do require to-hit rolls.

 

On the other hand, they, along with psychic shriek have inadequate rules, since they do not specify if you should make one to-hit roll or roll something different to resolve the Hit part of the witchfire. Personally, I would have preferred it if all three hit automatically, but since they don't, I roll a to-hit die to see if I can apply their effects.

[Ozshock]

i think its fair to assume that if you need to hit a squad to do X effect to that squad...you need the minimum shots required to have "hit" the squad...and since witchfires need you to roll to hit...its pretty safe to assume you need one shot to "hit" your target, then finish the spell effects

 

i know the rules are ambiguous but its a safe assumption

[GreyCrow]

I'm not sure if that helps in any official fashion, but I asked the GW store manager of the flagship store for the brand in France and he said that there was no need to roll to hit since it doesn't have any weapon profile.

 

I have no idea if that holds any kind of official value, but he said it that way.

 

EDIT : On a side note, there's the case of the "Crush" or "Haemorrhage" powers, which would seem to auto hit too.

[dosiere]

The rules for this are not 100% clear, but here is how I would play it:

 

1) After manifesting the power on a legal target, roll a single to-hit roll with the Psyker to see if it "hits" as required by the Witchfire rules.  I don't think this is 100% required, but considering it's not clear I would recommend just using the least powerful interpretation for now. 

 

2) Resolve the remainder of the power as described under Psychic Shriek.

 

3) The Psyker should not be disallowed making an assault because of Psychic Shriek.  Here is why:

 

a) page 45 lists the reasons you cannot assault

b) can you show me where Psychic Shriek qualifies for any of these things?

c) no?  awesome, so I can charge you.

 

This is in no way breaking the permissive rules system we have, as some have suggested.  To argue that psychic shriek should keep you from charging would be like arguing that a unit cannot charge because it didn't do anything in its previous shooting phase.  "Did it fire an assault weapon or a pistol?  No?  Hahaha!  Then you can't charge, since you didn't do anything that says you can make a charge attack now!"

 

Hopefully you see that charging is available to all units by default, and is disallowed by doing specific things, of which Psychic Shriek is not one of them. 

[Ming]

I'm with Dosiere on this one. Manifest power, deny the witch, role once to hit, determine number of wounds created (3d6-ld), apply wound results.

 

None of the current psychic powers in the book seem to have heavy or other restrictions applicable to later game phases - the psyche can even play PS on one unit, play other powers on other units, then in the shooting phase hit a different unit, then assault the one he shot at.

 

The only restrictions for witchfires seem to be LOS and range.

 

But thanks for reminding me PS is a witchfire.