Statistic comparison request

[War Angel]

Im requesting some mathhammer to compair the following two units, using imperial fist tactics. What is the damage comparison, survivability, and all the other goodies of these two?

 

Currently I'm using a scout squad, 10 man with bolters and a melta bomb.

 

For the same price I could have 6 devistators, with two missile launchers. Or five and 3 missile launchers.

 

 

Thanks for the help.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You're going to have a hard time getting a solid mathhammering out of that, brother.  IF Devs are going to want to be shooting at armored targets to take advantage of Tank Hunter, while bolter-armed Scouts are a purely anti-infantry outfit.  Two entirely different roles. . .

[minigun762]

Agreed. I'm a fan of math-hammering but the difference here is too great to really get a meaningful result unless you're only interested in killing infantry at range.

[War Angel]

Ok, we'll lets say that my opponent only had one tank that is now dead. Or took no tanks. Or his remaining tanks are in reserve. For whatever reason, the tanks are absent, so I shoot at some infantry.

 

 

Sorry if I was confusing

[Quozzo]

Survivability? As in the probability that going to ground would increase their cover save against high AP weapons but reduce their ability to fire back, as opposed to devastators not firing and thus allowing them to charge into a horde of IG. The variables are astronomical. Anything can happen in a vacuum, you might knock models off the table and be unable to find them, probably with the scouts as there are more. It's not feasible to say "which is better in every conceivable circumstance". You need a control when working with comparisons, that control is the opposition but you gave no indication on what that is, just left it completely wide open.

[War Angel]

Did I anger you? Cause that's some intense sarcasm coming from you. Pretty sure a child knew I was asking how often am I likely to drop my model when I bump the table.

 

I get what you mean about the open endedness of it all, but realy? There's no need for that. It's a simple mistake. One that I can correct, and will do so now.

 

 

9 bolter shots and a plasma shot from a tactical squad vs both of my proposed squads. Followed by the proposed squads return fire.

[Quozzo]

Sarcasm and anger do not go hand in hand. I dony know how you could mix them up unless you wanted a reaction from me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Alright, everybody calm down or I'll unlimber my meltagun.  Miscommunications happen, so let it pass and resume your regularly scheduled productive discussion.

[Garath]

  I cannot mathhammer this but I can give my observation ...and some math...

 

  Imperial fists :10 Scouts vs 5 devastators with 3 ML ?

 

   Damage output vs infantry 

 

  10 scouts fire (ideally) 20 shots with bolter drill and will score 10 hits in the first volley ,and re-roll 1 or 2 dice (as those are ones) 

  Total hits = around 11. 

 

  5 devastators fire 3 ML , 2 will most likely hit .  Number of model hit per template can vary greatly.  If you're firing at some dug in spread out dudes , that's only 4-5 total.  On the other hand , if you destroy a transport and some troops drop put bunched up or a  unit teleports in...10-12.   

    I would be carfully optimistic here and go with scenario one.  In case someone leaves their models bznched up in LOS of devastators , he is obviously very green and hasen't learned how to play yet.  This discussion is pointless against such players as they are easly beaten if you know what you're doing...no matter which units you use.:D

    

  Back to topic.  The sheer damage output is hard to calculate, but if you plan on dealing with infantry primarily scouts are the way to go.  Reason for this is weight of fire.  Once you start rolling so many dice , you ARE going to kill something. That in itself there is why scouts are better against infantry. Plus , if you can give them a re-roll to hit with a psyker- all the better.

 

  Devastators  outrange them tho, greatly .

 

 

 Positioning 

 

Scouts are ...scouts.  You not only get to position them up front, you get to position them almoast perfectly.  They get to engage their target early on,and make those bolters count. They are free to move and fire, can move into terrain (and should ).  

 

  Devestators have no move and fire option, and don't really get to pick their target - the targets the opponent presents them with are the only choice.

 

 

Taking hits

 

10 bodies vs 5 bodies .  Scouts can have cammo cloaks. That makes their cover save 4+  in any terrain.  If your army includes a techmarine ( or a thunderfire cannon manned by one) suddenly their cover save is 3+ .  2+ if they go to ground. This is an option...useful in

 

Scenario play

 

  Scouts are "super scoring" .  If you're playing maelstorm missons , scouts are golden.  Not only do they score, they can also combat squad !

 

 

 

    To summ it up . If you want a combination of anti infantry and anti tank / transport fire - devastators.  Everything else...10th company 

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, can't recall the IF Chapter Tactics, so some mathhammer without it.

 

All three units are shooting at enemy Chaos Marines, not in Cover (T4, 3+ Save).

 

1: 10 Bolter Scouts;

Sarge: 1*(4/6) = 0.667 hits.

9 Scouts: 9*(3/6) = 4.5 hits.

5.167 hits: 5.167*(3/6) = 2.58 Wounds = 2.58*(2/6) = 0.86 Casualties

 

2: 6 Devs, 2ML (Krak);

Bolters: 4*(4/6) = 2.667 hits = 1.334 Wounds = 0.445 Casualties

ML: 2*(4/6) = 1.333 hits = 1.333*(5/6) = 1.111 Wounds = 1.111 Casualties

Total Casulaties: 1.556

 

3: 5 Devs, 3ML (Krak);

Bolters: 2*(4/6) = 1.333 hits = 0.667 Wounds = 0.222 Casualties

ML: 3*(4/6) = 2 hits = 1.667 Wounds = 1.667 Casualties

Total: Casualties: 1.889

 

This does, of course, favour the Missile Launchers.  And results would differ if you were scything down Warrior Accolytes rather than Chaos Space Marines (and you'd need to estimat the number hit by Frag Blasts).

 

But I hope it somehwat helps.

[War Angel]

Thanks that does help. Both of you.

[Azash]

OK, can't recall the IF Chapter Tactics, so some mathhammer without it.

 

All three units are shooting at enemy Chaos Marines, not in Cover (T4, 3+ Save).

 

1: 10 Bolter Scouts;

Sarge: 1*(4/6) = 0.667 hits.

9 Scouts: 9*(3/6) = 4.5 hits.

5.167 hits: 5.167*(3/6) = 2.58 Wounds = 2.58*(2/6) = 0.86 Casualties

 

2: 6 Devs, 2ML (Krak);

Bolters: 4*(4/6) = 2.667 hits = 1.334 Wounds = 0.445 Casualties

ML: 2*(4/6) = 1.333 hits = 1.333*(5/6) = 1.111 Wounds = 1.111 Casualties

Total Casulaties: 1.556

 

3: 5 Devs, 3ML (Krak);

Bolters: 2*(4/6) = 1.333 hits = 0.667 Wounds = 0.222 Casualties

ML: 3*(4/6) = 2 hits = 1.667 Wounds = 1.667 Casualties

Total: Casualties: 1.889

 

This does, of course, favour the Missile Launchers.  And results would differ if you were scything down Warrior Accolytes rather than Chaos Space Marines (and you'd need to estimat the number hit by Frag Blasts).

 

But I hope it somehwat helps.

That does suppose the scouts start shooting from 12+ inches. In rapid fire range they actually perform comperably to the Dev squad against MEQ. Given scout, infiltrate, and outflank it shouldn't be to difficult to get them to optimum range.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just double the Bolter results for everyone.

[War Angel]

Is it better to fire the sgts bolter rather than give a missile launcher the extra BS?

[Gentlemanloser]

Depends on who/what you're shooting.

[minigun762]

Is it better to fire the sgts bolter rather than give a missile launcher the extra BS?

Against anything where AP3 matters, the difference in BS4 vs BS5 is approximately 0.14 wounds. A single Bolter shot vs a Marine will give you 0.11 wounds so boosting the BS is better.

[Garath]

To my experience...

 

 An opponent will rarely leave a  unit in plain LOS without  any cover.  In that case, frag is the way to go - even against PA