The kit fallacy

[knife&fork]

After reading some posts on quipping various characters and vehicles I thought I'd post this topic to point out a few mistakes that a lot of players, regardless of skill level, occasionally do when building lists.

 

 

If you take specific equipment or wargear it will very likely come in handy at some point during a number of games.

 

 

However, "Oh it worked well that time" is not ​a reliable way to tell if you have spent your points wisely!

 

I'll post one example of my own. I my last game of 6th ed I had a librarian with a force axe, jump pack and hand flamer. In one assault squad I also had a sergeant with power fist and combat shield. These are rather wasteful load outs, built with aesthetics in mind rather than optimal ROI on points.

Incidentally in this game I got to use Hammer of wrath with the librarian, flame a group of scouts, kill two models with 'wall of death' and the combat shield saved my sergeant. The latter won me a challenge vs a Marine captain. Every piece of wargear paid off! 

 

The trick here is to recognize when you get lucky, and be honest in how often you actually get to use the things you pay for. 

 

I'll take another example from this member as well;

 

 

When I do meltas, I give my sergeant a power maul, a combat shield, and plasma pistol. I'm sending this squad to pop vehicles and armored targets, so I want the sergeant to be able to contribute.  

 

 

This is what I'd consider a suboptimal and very expensive loadout, but I have no doubts that ElectricPaladin has found this unit useful! I'm sure he can bring up multiple examples of when this kit has served his purposes well. 

 

Very often the question isn't whether or not a piece of wargear is useful or not (because they almost always are) it's what those points can do elsewhere.

 

Experiment, try new things and always be prepared to step back from time to time and question the choices we make. 

[Dark Legionnare]

For my entire 40k career I have always subscribed to the school of wise investments for most reliable outcome at any given time, facing any opponent. I wanted a narrative of my successor chapter living and fighting with what they could scrounge. Not having access to some vast armory they could pick and choose from. Also because I'm lazy and don't want to repaint/remodel.

Tac squads with HB & Plasma. Devs with Las and/or Plasma Cannons. Assault's with simple equipment except for the sergeant. My meat units, focussed on gun-lining and dishing out damage. 

The only thing I've ever decked out are the focused role units, "scalpel" units as I call them.

DC get some power weapon toys, Furioso dread get's enough goodies to waddle up to the enemy and smash stuff, etc...

I've always had great luck with a basic load-out stretched over many simpler units with one, two, or three "scalpel" units to do the heavy lifting (damage dealing) while big, dangerous things draw fire. The fire stays constant, the threat is spread across the whole front instead of allowing people to just nuke my units that have a higher point investment.  IE, my Death Company are loaded out to do massive damage, but mostly due to their re-roll rules.  They don't cost more than the tac squad with HB and Plasma gun.

Summary: I prefer simply equipped stuff army-wide over focusing on "react to anything" builds on every unit.  Synergy and whatnot. *shrug*
 

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This was prior to a major investment in the 6th/7th Edition way of playing.  With people getting smart about murdering troops (out of necessity now)  I'll have to buff them out a bit more instead of letting other things like Vindicators and the dread draw fire.  I'll still stick to the basic load-out spread over many units to saturate fire.

[Shaezus]

Throwing my two pence in - the main guideline I go by when listbuilding is to look at the initial list and say 'is there something for everything?', so can I hurt MEQs, TEQs, MCs etc. and I will tweak and add here and there, but always keeping a focus or two for each unit. So individually they may impotent against one thing or another, but taken together..you get the gist. Then the rule is, if it works keep it, or try to take more of it.

 

Only exception to specialism is the fraggy dreads. They are being dropped in on turn 1 so they could end up next to anything. So I always take melta and magna, no heavy flamer because if I'm up against hordes the frag cannon is beast enough. If I'm against armour, hello magna hello melta. Insurance against unkind scatter :)

[Demoulius]

Tbh my oproach when list building is first to get in the units that I want. And IF I have left over points (say 20-30) I will buy some bling for my troops but most of the time that just means some extra meltabombs or such... nothing major.

Taking little bling to begin with ensures that you dont overprice your own troops...some of which are already quite pricey when you look at the new marine dex

[ElectricPaladin]

 

 

When I do meltas, I give my sergeant a power maul, a combat shield, and plasma pistol. I'm sending this squad to pop vehicles and armored targets, so I want the sergeant to be able to contribute.  

 

 

This is what I'd consider a suboptimal and very expensive loadout, but I have no doubts that ElectricPaladin has found this unit useful! I'm sure he can bring up multiple examples of when this kit has served his purposes well. 

 

Very often the question isn't whether or not a piece of wargear is useful or not (because they almost always are) it's what those points can do elsewhere.

 

Experiment, try new things and always be prepared to step back from time to time and question the choices we make. 

 

I'm really tickled that my off-handed - and apparently bad! - advice has spawned an entire thread! Also, I'd like to say that you are quite erudite and open-minded. I've never before had someone say "your idea is wrong, but I totally acknowledge that your experiences thus far have led you to your conclusion that it works ok."

 

By the way, what would you recommend as the sergeant for an assault squad intended to go after harder targets (ie. the version with the meltas)? I'd be happy to proxy it in and see what I think of it... and if I like it, I'll take my own advice and get a new assault marine to make another version of the sergeant!

[Joasht]

I think everyone goes through that phase. Back in 3rd I used to overload quite a bit, but nowadays all my characters run with an extremely trim loadout. For example, most of my Sergeants barely get more than a  Melta Bomb and possibly a combi (for more static units like Tacts).

 

With the way challenges work nowadays, I expect to get challenged a lot, while at the same time I do not think Sergeants are particularly good at winning them.

[Demoulius]

I dont think the advice is bad. What the OP is trying to mention is that the same points could be doing identical usefull things in other locations (and sometimes several locations if you spread them out) other then the one mentioned above.

 

A powermaul, combatshield and PP mean for example that your sargeant can pose a threat to any foe. Has both a ranged attack and a close combat one and he has an invul save. its also alot of points on a single wound model with a (compared to specialists) mediocre WS,BS and initiative.

 

He might perform very nicely, or he might not but the whole point is that by spreading the points (or by taking different upgrades) you create a different effect which might suit ones style better. I personally prefer spreading the upgrades across my army so that no 1 unit or character is holding onto a majority of my points. It serves me well by spreading the risk and it suits my style.

 

At the end of the day, to each their own. What works for 1 person doesent need to work for another.

[Bartali]

The problem with upgrades to units has always been GWs points pricing for them, and the refusual to revist and re-assess them.

The points for close combat weapons and pistols in particular are far too high, and GW doesn't reduce the points of upgrades depending on the context.

Should a Tactical Sarge pay the same price in points for a Powerfist as a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf ? Should a Tactical Marine pay the same price for a Missile Launcher+Skyfire as a Devestator Marine ?

 

Because of this pricing, upgrades for most units are a no-no outside of fluff and modeling reasons

[bushman101]

When I kit out a unit, my general plan is to give them gear for the task I'm taking then for. That's not very profound, but it works.

The catch is, sometimes the reason you bring a unit never comes up in game, especially against IG were the lists can skew to lots of tanks or pure infantry blobs. For that reason, I usually hand out gear to balance a unit. A pow sword for a dev Sgt or a flamer for a tank hunting unit. But I rarely give a model in a unit more than one piece of purchased gear (ic's and hq's are different), as I don't want to lose all my paid gear when I lose a single person

[knife&fork]

 

By the way, what would you recommend as the sergeant for an assault squad intended to go after harder targets (ie. the version with the meltas)? I'd be happy to proxy it in and see what I think of it... and if I like it, I'll take my own advice and get a new assault marine to make another version of the sergeant!

 

 

Nothing fancy actually, just a power fist or even a single melta bomb. Maybe both if there's a chance they need to deal with a AV13 walker or land raider.

 

I would actually be interested in hearing how that power maul has been working out for you in specific situations.