Lord_Urbonov Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 So, picture this comrades: You want to play CSM marines, but you want to also use the new Malefic powers. This can be dangerous, as sorcerers are not deamons and thus will be at greater risk due to the rule saying ANY double roll will cause a perils. An obvious solution this this, for one sorcerer at least, is to give him the Prophet of the Voices relic from the crimson slaugter supplement, making him a deamon. Problem is, Prophet of the voices has a stipulation, that the only unit the user can join is a unit of crimson slaughter possessed. Now, crimson slaughter possessed are decent troops choices, so taking a unit of them as a bodyguard is not such a big deal, but they are a close combat unit. Sorcerers are not the most hacky slashy characters out there, with only 2 wounds and other stats of a lower grade than a chaos lord. In addition, best case scenario, your possessed are going to be tucked in a transport to get them intact to their squishy, blood filled targets. Conjuration powers cannot be cast from inside a transport. So here is the dilemma. Either let your sorcerer run around alone and likely vulnerable to concentrated enemy fire, or put him in a unit of possesed where he might be unable to cast his most summon-esque spells for a few turns, and be in combat where he is not the most suited to be, even with some possessed bonus from his relic. If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd greatly appreciate hearing them. I've considered giving the sorcerer another crimson slaughter relic, the deamonheart, which would give him a 2+ armour save and it will not die, but I'm still not sure if this is the proper solution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Take a prince. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Can you summon from inside a building? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Urbonov Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Take a prince. Couple of problems with that, is that they have to take a mark, and thus have to take a least one spell from their gods lore, and thus looses the free primaris from themalefic powers. Also, I'm assuming you don't mind to have the prince slog across the field, so he'd be given wings, and the mandatory mark (I'm going to pick slaanesh here, as its the cheapest) and the 3 mastery levels to get the most power dice, and that totals 270 points, A sorcerer, with no mark, 3 mastery levels and the prophet of the voices, is 140, and can get 4 powers, all of which are from malefic. The prince is just a little expensive for me. Can you summon from inside a building? I'm afraid I'm not terribly familiar with how buildings work. If you can cast conjuration powers from inside them, yes, summoning would be possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Then take the squishy sorc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 It's only a 7 turn game, max. Run the normal sorc and let him burn himself out summing demons. You'll get more demons out of him than he's worth, more often than not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 It's only a 7 turn game, max. Run the normal sorc and let him burn himself out summing demons. You'll get more demons out of him than he's worth, more often than not. As long as he isn't your Warlord, I think this is the best option. Also depends on how the familiar works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Urbonov Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 I wonder how viable it would be, giving him the 2+ save and it will not die, putting him on a bike, and just letting him zip around and hide behind rhinos and stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Keep him unmarked, but mark the Possessed and run them on foot. MoN makes them T5 and MoT increases their I-save to 4++, both of which can increase their durability against various types of attacks. Now you've got a not-squishy bodyguard and you can summon away to your heart's content. Conversely, don't take a bodyguard. Stick in out of LOS and just get to the conjuration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3705708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Fulgrim Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 No summoning from inside buildings - they're treated like transports (page 110, "Firing From Buildings") so it's Witchfire powers only from them too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3708955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Probably the best option I can think of is: Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer - Mastery Level 3 - Prophet of the Voices - Spell Familiar - (Gift of Mutation) Now as far as the possessed bodyguard go: - I'd avoid Tzeentch as it limits the ++ save. You'll want to combine the Voices 3++ (when you get it (33:66 chance)) with Cursed Earth for a 2++ (if you have it (50:50 chance)). Tzeentch actively prevents this. - I'd go Nurgle if you want to tarpit, it'll also help the unit get where it needs to go. - I'd go Khorne if you want to hit hard - I'd avoid Slaanesh as you'll be Initiative 1 if you're charging into cover, which - if your opponent is smart - you will be. So +1 to base Initiative isn't useful. Regarding transports: - I like Rhinos, but this is likely to be an assault based unit - so the Rhino isn't the best choice, you also can't summon from inside it. - A Land Raider seems the better option, but you can't summon from inside it (or even use witchfire powers as there are no fire points). This means you're probably best off foot-slogging. In which case an unmarked Sorcerer and a unit with the Mark of Nurgle is probably best. I like the idea of having the Sorcerer on his own, and hiding him... even if it seems a little craven to do so. In this case, I might be tempted to give him a Bike for the +1 Toughness and/or give him the Daemonheart for a 2+ save or go for Terminator Armour. He'll be a fire magnet, as soon as the enemy get Line of Sight to him, so keeping him alive will be important. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3709016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Urbonov Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Thank you Dam13n for you nicely thought out analysis. You're thinking is scarily close to what I've been thinking, save for one detail. I've been going over the way the new psychic phase works, and it occurs to me, that my Crimson slaughter sorcerer would very much benefit from some more warp charges. Assuming I get an average roll of like, 3 warp charges, combined with the 3 created by his mastery level, that's only 6 dice per turn. To get the most out of the psychic phase, I've been contemplating adding another generic sorcerer, and that also brings a bit more strategy. As you pointed out, you cannot summon from inside a tank, but I'm still not wild about the idea of running my possessed across the field. My plan is, not to even try to get summonings off early. Load the possessed and my crimson sorcerer into a rhino, and while they are advancing for at least a turn, let the generic sorcerer play with the warp charges (likely going to take telepathy with him) for the first turn at least. Since with Rhinos you are going to have to disembark them the turn before you assault, this is when I think summoning some deamons and/or cursed earth will come in most handy. Assuming the deamons don't scatter wildly, you can place them between your assault target and the possessed, making a potentially lethal screen. Also, while I will almost certainly leave the sorcerers unmarked, I'm still fond of the Mark of T for the possessed. While I know it cannot improve a 3+ inv, i found it is unwise to rely on that, as it is a random D3 result, and I don't want to rely on getting cursed earth off either. M of T insures that my possessed have, at all times, at least a 4+ invulnerable save. Basically, I'd be running an army with my crimson slaughter lord (having good results with the power-up sword and the slaughterer's horns), a crimson slaughter sorcerer with prophet of the voices who would run with the possessed, and ally in another generic lvl 3 CSM sorcerer (possibly with a jump pack so he can fly around with my lord and his raptors) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3709603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Take the Malefic Possessed Sorcerer and take the Possessed (Troops Possessed with a decent roll most turns are better than people think, they just cost a bomb!). Then take Belakor or a Telepathy Sorcerer and try to get in the enemies face ASAP. Opponents will have to decide between stopping your Malefic or stopping Invisability. It's what I have moved towards after running dual Telepathy. Dallas Edit. You can run your Sorcerer unmarked and still give the Possessed a mark. Also, if you have the points to beef up the Possessed Sorcerer he can be quite good but he's never reliably going to beat beefed up Chapter Masters/MCs, if the worst comes to the worst & he's stuck in a challenge he's going to lose or he's down to one wound then there's always Possession to ruin your enemies day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291833-the-conundrum-of-the-csm-deamon-summoner/#findComment-3709611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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