White Scars Terminators

[malorn24]

I am 3/4 of the way done with Scars and so far so good. But the only thing that feels a bit out of place is Terminators in the Scars. It just seems like polar opposites. The Scars pride themselves on be fast and making everything around them fast. Hell I can see them painting thier bikes red just in case the Orcs got something right!

 

All joking aside. Does anyone else feel like Terminators are a bit of a place within the Scars Legion?

[Emperor's Furor]

Well the Khan's bodyguard the Keshig is made up of Terminators, so it's not as much of a problem now. Although prior to Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars I would of thought of them as unthinkable, now only Dreadnoughts fill that position.

[helterskelter]

I think every legion has a terminator elite thing just because. Some we're yet to see mind

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

I also felt the same way. Then I saw this guy's awesome converted Keshig and, well, rule of cool trumps all! ;)

 

http://aleatorblog.de/horus-heresy-kill-team-event-pt-1/

[Kais Klip]

Felt the same, until someone remarked (pipe up) that there's no technological method of force insertion faster than teleportation. 

[Sevatar]

I really like the idea of teleportation, to be honest. I like the Keshig too.

[malorn24]

Don't get me wrong I agree that the Keshig are cool and teleportation is fast. But again Terminators are basically baby Dreadnaughts so they should be viewed in similar ways. The tactics of the Khan are to strike and fade, wash rinse repeat. Just because you can insert Terminators really really fast with by telelporting you really are now stuck in that spot. So the entire Strike and Fade things goes right out the window. So if Terminators can be inserted with a teleporter and considered fast I would assume that Dreads in a Drop Pod would be considered fast as well.

[Scribe]

I also felt the same way. Then I saw this guy's awesome converted Keshig and, well, rule of cool trumps all!

http://aleatorblog.de/horus-heresy-kill-team-event-pt-1/

Those pics may sell me on buying up those tiles.

[SteelPaladin]

I think people can get hung up on the Legions specialties.

 

Sure, the White Scars may prefer fast moving warfare, but that does not mean that they cannot employ other tactics as the situation dictates. All the Legions started out pretty much identical, they may have evolved over the years, but they certainly retained bits of their previous organization.

 

Every Legion has to be competent in every type of warfare, they may be better at some, but they can sure hold their own in the rest.

[Sevatar]

Agreed. All the Legions could do any war zone. Some could simply do it better than others. 

[Tyrannicide]

I understand the sentiment, but this is a Legion. While I'm behind on my Scars knowledge, size and scope alone would suggest that every single Legion has all the wargear, armor, and equipment to wage war in any method. Don't get me wrong, what they specialize in and how proficient they are in said applications differs from Legion to Legion. We see this showcased in the first Battle of Paramar. The Alpha Legion, whom beforehand would've been called the ultimate weapon of subterfuge and experts of non-conventional warfare, deploy a freaking armored division to deal with the Mechanicum and their allies. And this is just one example. Would we ever thought about the XX^th having a vast armory of super-heavy tanks, taking to the field using blitzkrieg tactics? I know I wouldn't of, and the 30k-verse is better for it. FW has done an excellent job expanding on how the Legiones Astartes waged war.

 

So the White Scars having an elite Terminator outfit isn't surprising, not in the slightest. Imagine a White Scars battalion on foot, luring the enemy into their center while they feign a retreat. Meanwhile, Legion Outriders and Seekers quietly work their way past the enemy's flanks before springing a counterattack maneuver. Terminators teleport behind the enemy to cut off any escape as they lay down mass fire and slug everything to oblivion that's dumb enough to turn and run. Full encirclement.

 

Think bigger picture. One of our tactically minded brothers would be able to word that more eloquently. :)

[malorn24]

I disagree that they were all basically equal. All of the Primarchs and therefore their gene sons were designed to be specialist in certain areas. Otherwise you would have 18 Angrons or 18 Guillimam's and that wouldn't do.

 

No I agree that all Legions should have access to the same gear and all but it just felt a little odd. I am just saying that if you are going to stay away from Dreads because there are too slow then Terminators are in the same boat. At least in my opinion.

 

Edited because I didn't want to double post and yo uare guys are faster at typing LOL

 

OK I completely think that the dropping a terminator company or bunchs of them would be awesom in the whole feint and then cut off and then kill. But then you would discribing what everyone would do.

 

I guess to me the stickig point is fluff that I enjoy actually. In the case of the WS freaking out and refusing to go intoa dread because of thier love of the wind in thier hairs thing. If that were the case a Space Marine elevated to the poistion of Veteran or what not would then look at being put into Terminator armor and think of it as a demotion.

[Clone]

Edit: ninja'd (sharrowkyn'd)

[Ramell]

Don't get me wrong I agree that the Keshig are cool and teleportation is fast. But again Terminators are basically baby Dreadnaughts so they should be viewed in similar ways. The tactics of the Khan are to strike and fade, wash rinse repeat. Just because you can insert Terminators really really fast with by telelporting you really are now stuck in that spot. So the entire Strike and Fade things goes right out the window. So if Terminators can be inserted with a teleporter and considered fast I would assume that Dreads in a Drop Pod would be considered fast as well.

I am just saying that if you are going to stay away from Dreads because there are too slow then Terminators are in the same boat. At least in my opinion.

The White Scars' objection to Dreadnoughts is not because of them being slow. It is because confining the warrior's spirit to the sarcophagus is abhorrent to them.

[SFH]

Oh, god, did you have to mention Sharrowkyn? Now the thread will be derailed...

 

Speaking on topic, one thing you need to remember about the White Scars is that they had unprecedented leway in conducting war how they wanted to. Jaghatai Khan trusted his men to make their own decisions in how they wanted to fight. If you want to go all Assault Squads, go all Assault Squads. If you wanted to go all Sky Hunter Squadrons, go all Sky Hunter Squadrons. Another thing is that as far as I've read from Brotherhood and Scars, Terminator armour seems to be reserved for high ranking officers such as Noyan-Khans or their keshigs, which were mostly ceremonial positions.

[malorn24]

 

Don't get me wrong I agree that the Keshig are cool and teleportation is fast. But again Terminators are basically baby Dreadnaughts so they should be viewed in similar ways. The tactics of the Khan are to strike and fade, wash rinse repeat. Just because you can insert Terminators really really fast with by telelporting you really are now stuck in that spot. So the entire Strike and Fade things goes right out the window. So if Terminators can be inserted with a teleporter and considered fast I would assume that Dreads in a Drop Pod would be considered fast as well.

I am just saying that if you are going to stay away from Dreads because there are too slow then Terminators are in the same boat. At least in my opinion.

The White Scars' objection to Dreadnoughts is not because of them being slow. It is because confining the warrior's spirit to the sarcophagus is abhorrent to them.

 

 

 

So now ( just to play devils advocate) you are telling me that the WS would reject this obvious weapon and tool because of the sarcophagus thing but they will gladly risk being one with a rock during a teleportation accident?

 

 

At least in my opinion there is more to it than that?

 

Going off of Darth P's post tactically speaking dropping a bunch of dreads would be more effecient then dropping terminators. Just my opinion though it just didn't sit well thinking of a White Scar in a TDA.

[Stercus]

I disagree that they were all basically equal. All of the Primarchs and therefore their gene sons were designed to be specialist in certain areas. Otherwise you would have 18 Angrons or 18 Guillimam's and that wouldn't do.

 

No I agree that all Legions should have access to the same gear and all but it just felt a little odd. I am just saying that if you are going to stay away from Dreads because there are too slow then Terminators are in the same boat. At least in my opinion.

 

Edited because I didn't want to double post and yo uare guys are faster at typing LOL

 

OK I completely think that the dropping a terminator company or bunchs of them would be awesom in the whole feint and then cut off and then kill. But then you would discribing what everyone would do.

 

I guess to me the stickig point is fluff that I enjoy actually. In the case of the WS freaking out and refusing to go intoa dread because of thier love of the wind in thier hairs thing. If that were the case a Space Marine elevated to the poistion of Veteran or what not would then look at being put into Terminator armor and think of it as a demotion.

As I remember it, it's not about the dreadnought being slow, it's more of a reaction to tradition and superstition. A dreadnought isn't an honour to the Scars, its a trap. Their life has ended, but they are denied their peace and honoured rest, kept like a zombie in an automaton, merely a brain propelling a machine. Their humanity is denied them, leaving them little more of a warrior than a combat servitors.

By comparison, a terminator suit is simply armour that magnifies their capabilities as a warrior. It at no point replaces their human nature, it is only a tool to augment it further.

 

That's my take on it, for what it's worth.

[Tyrannicide]

It's just a fabricated example that uses Mongolian-inspired tactics. I tried to show one scenario where Terminator armor could be used as a piece in their battleline. Even the method in which the Scars use Terminators, as opposed to the VII Legion would probably be different. Point is, each Company (not sure of exact equivalent in the WS) is different in how they go into battle. An entire formation may be armed somewhat incongruously with boarding shields, and by itself, it may appear in disharmony with the Legion's overall mentality, but paired with other support formations, armor, bikes, and skimmer detachments, it would slot into place perfectly. 

 

We have the ability to showcase units that would usually be seen at odds with a Legion's preferences. That's the beauty of 30k and one of the main features that pulled we away from the 40k universe. 

 

Do you want to represent World Eater Artillery Batteries, Death Guard Skimmer Cavalry, White Scar Heavy Support Specialists, etc, etc, etc? Go ahead. Even things used out of necessity or circumstance, such as Ultramarine Calth Veterans using rad-tech, a la faux-Destroyers. Nothing is 'wrong' or out of sync during the Heresy, because every Legion would've deployed the wide array at their disposal at least once. Some things might even stick.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

 

So now ( just to play devils advocate) you are telling me that the WS would reject this obvious weapon and tool because of the sarcophagus thing but they will gladly risk being one with a rock during a teleportation accident?

 

 

You can't really play Devil's Advocate, (or to put it in High Gothic, Promotor Fidei) because there's nothing to argue against. White Scars don't do dreadnoughts because of their traditions and pseudo-religious beliefs, and they do make use of terminator armor. There's no wiggle room here. 

 

It's canon. Fact.

 

Similarly, it's also canon that all of the Legions are known to make use of every tool available to them to accomplish their objectives with very few exceptions - WS dreads being one of them - and while each does have some area they may do better than another, those differences pale in comparison to what they all share: They're all Legiones Astartes.

[GreyCrow]

In any case for any army, it's not because one of their formation or elite unit is famous for that they did not have any other units that worked completely differently to support that role.

 

In real life, the Mongols mainly used light cavalry, but also numbers of conquered allies infantry and heavy infantry (knights) forces. They also use siege weapons for attacking cities as well as human shields of prisoners for protection, but as opposed to other armies where the main formation was foot infantry, mongols base troops were squads of 10 cavalrymen.

 

The real life Kheshings from the Mongols would not engage in battle, but act as real bodyguards for the Khan. Mongols protected their officers, who were valued more for their military mind than their battle prowess, and most did not partake in the fight. In a defended camp, mobility is of no use, and it's better to have very heavy infantry to provide sustainability ;)

[Phoros]

So now ( just to play devils advocate) you are telling me that the WS would reject this obvious weapon and tool because of the sarcophagus thing but they will gladly risk being one with a rock during a teleportation accident?

 

You don't "become one with a rock", though. You die. That isn't really the same thing as being locked into a sarcophagus, alive but cut off from the world, for all eternity.

(Incidentally, the Scars do, according to the Damocles book, have some Dreadnoughts - very few, but they do have them. No idea if this applies to the Legion, though.)

[battle captain corpus]

I also think that the argument of a veteran warrior refusing Terminator Armour is flawed.

 

The counter point would be:

- He has served hundreds of years and is given the opportunity, nay honour of ranking as the foremost warriors of his Legion....treading in the literal footsteps of his father, the Khan.

- A warrior must adapt and be able to strike quickly whatever the circumstances, it is a true testament then that a warrior can adapt to a new form of warfare.

 

BCC

[Greyall]

Kais Klip pointed the best argument in favour of TDA armour by a mobile force: insertion by teleportation is as fast and direct as possible. Failing that, a squad of Termies taking a Land Raider (especially a WS-modified one) won't drag anyone behind.

 

Also, Terminators, while slowish on their feet (unless a certain Legion's techmarines do a few modifications *wink wink* - or, you know, go Tartatus), aren't actually supposed to be as fast or even faster than PA as far as arms go. So once they reach a site, Termies will actually deliver your Enemy Shish-Kebab faster than a PA squad would - not least of it because fewer of them will fall to enemy shots, as well.

[Daddywarcrimes]

Don't get me wrong I agree that the Keshig are cool and teleportation is fast. But again Terminators are basically baby Dreadnaughts so they should be viewed in similar ways. The tactics of the Khan are to strike and fade, wash rinse repeat. Just because you can insert Terminators really really fast with by telelporting you really are now stuck in that spot. So the entire Strike and Fade things goes right out the window. So if Terminators can be inserted with a teleporter and considered fast I would assume that Dreads in a Drop Pod would be considered fast as well.

 

Terminators can also be teleported OUT just as fast.  And the veterans in the Cataphractii can take the massive armor off, strap their lighter warplate on, and mount their jetbikes to ride with The Horde needed.  Dreadnoughts can only ever march to war as dreadnoughts.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Also, Scars were renowned for their void combat prowess - particularly ship to ship boarding actions. You have to use the right tool for the job.