Unbound and Chapter Tactics

[Gentlemanloser]

Breaking this away from the Amicus thread.

 

Basically, how do Space Marines with different Chapter Tactics work in an Unbound army?

 

From Codex: Space Marines;

 

 

 

When choosing a Space Marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of
the Chapters listed in this section. Mark the Chapter you choose for each detachment on
your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their
detachment’s Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule. Certain
units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be
taken in detachments of the specified Chapter.

 

 

 

You must let your opponent know what Chapter each detachment is from

 

So a detachment *must* be a single Chapter, and have a single Chapter Tactic.  And the only special characters you can use must have that detachments Chapter and Chapter Tactics.

 

For Unbound armies in 7th edition we are told;

 

 

 

Every army has a Primary Detachment <snip> If you use the Unbound method, then once you choose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction as your Warlord, is considered to be part of the Primary detachment for all rules purposes.

 

It does then mention;

 

 

 

These models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive command benefits

 

So what is a Detachment Restriction?

 

 

 

This section of the Detachment

 

The restrictions are printed on the Detachment in the BRB.  There are currently two Detachments in the BRB, the Combined Arms Detachment and the Allied Detachment.  And these are used *only* in a Battle-Forged army.  Not an Unbound army.

 

As an Unbound army doesn't use any 'Detachments', there are no Detachment Restrictions for an Unbound army to be not restricted by.

 

 

What is a Faction?

 

 

 

The Faction of all the units described in a Codex is the same as the Codex's title

 

So basically, any unit taken from Codex: Space Marines belongs to the Space Marine Faction.

 

 

So here is the issue.

 

We know for an Unbound army, that your choice of Warlord forms a 'Primary' Detachment, and that all units of the same faction must belong to it.  All units from Codex: Space Marines belong to the same faction, regardless of Chapter Tactic chosen, or specified.

 

Therefore, if a Warlord is chosen from the Space Marine Faction, all Space Marines belong to a single detachment.

 

As per the rules for Chapter Tactics, all Space Marines in a single detachment must have the same Chapter Tactics.

 

It would seem therefore, to be unable to use both Clagar and Kantor in an Unbound army led by a Space Marine warlord.  As they both have different Chapter Tactics and *cannot* be part of the same Detachment.  They might not even have the same 'Chapter' as your Space Marine Warlord himself.

 

Unbound armies don't use 'Allies' (they *cannot* use Allied Detachments in way, shape or form), so any instruction on how 'Allied' Space Marines might work can only apply to Battle Forged armies, utilising Allied detachments alongside Combined Arms Detachment.

 

And have no bearing on Unbound armies.

 

 

 

 

[GreyCrow]

Perhaps that means no Chapter Tactics with Unbound Space Marine armies ?

[Eddie Orlock]

I'd need to review the materials, but you may be on to something here.

 

Would it be a work around to including both Marneus and Pedro to appoint a non-Astarte warlord. In this case, if the presence of chapter tactics is an attribute of the detachment, and the marines aren't technically part of a detachment, would they not receive chapter tactics. If we accept this interpretation, how does it interact with unique characters who have specific chapter tactics referenced in their profiles?

[Kristoff]

I have to agree with you on the RAW, as stupid as it is.

 

However, from a more RAI concept, I'd have to say that Unbound is more of a "no-holds barred" so I'd say that it's more of a "give Tactics out how you want to the units as you want", mostly due to how Allied Detachments are "handled" otherwise. Largely because units of other Chapter Tactics are separated from the Primary's faction.

 

Again, that's totally RAI and would let my opponent run it as such.

[Gentlemanloser]

All great points.

 

I have to agree that if you use a non Space Marine (Faction) Warlord, then your Space Marines do not belong to any detachment.

 

As they aren't part of a detachment, they don't get any Chapter Tactics.

 

Chapter Tactics and Unbound armies need a FAQ.

 

Actually, the whole point of Unbound not using detachment, but then arranging a special detachment (Primary), that isn't a detachment (it has no Detachment in the BRB unlike Combined Arms and Allied), is *very* sloppy.

 

And needs to be tightened up / explained.

 

What is a Primary detachment, if you don't use Detachments?

 

Am I the only one who feels that Combined Arms and Allied should have been called types of FoC and not 'detachments'?  And the terms should have been better defined?

[Axagoras]

wouldnt you just pick a chapter tactic for each squad?

[Gentlemanloser]

That would imply that in an Unbound army each individual unit would be thier own individual 'detachment'.

 

Which they're not. :(

 

I'm sure the intention is for you to be able to use whatever Chapter Tactics you want.  That might be messy remembering / letting your opponent know which unit has which.  And also if any of the Chapter Tactics are designed to work only for the 'detachment' they are taken in.

 

It's just currently the rules don't support this.

 

It just needs a FAQ / Amendment / Errata.

[Raeven]

Sounds like the primary could have a chapter tactic, but any space marine choices afterwards that aren't part of the same chapter tactic, wouldn't benefit from their own.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Primary could have a Chapter Tactic.  But you woldn't be able to include any other Space Marines with a different one.

 

As the Unbound rules would require them to be part of the same detachment, and the Codex rules require a single detachment to all have the same chapter Tactics.

 

Even if you were to site the "doesn't follow restrictions" from the BRB, the Codex restricion about single Chapter Tactics per detachment would over rule that.

 

If Calgar is chosen to be your Warlord in an Unbound army, then *all* Space Marines would need the UM chapter Tactic.  And you would be unable to include any Marine that was chosen to, or forced to have a differen Chapter Tactic.

[Raeven]

Yea, I think you are overlooking a simple part of the Unbound Rule.

 

"You can build your army from any models in your collection."

 

The armies are not bound by any Detachment Restrictions.  I think that would include detachment restrictions from the codex's as well.  So it doesn't matter that the codex requires you to have all the same chapter tactics in a single detachment.  

 

You would only benefit from one chapter tactic and only if your warlord and the particular Chapter Tactic are your primary detachment.  The rest of your space marines would be usable, but would not get the benefit of their chapter tactic, assuming they were of a different chapter.  So you could take all the Chapter Masters in an unbound list.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yea, I think you are overlooking a simple part of the Unbound Rule.

 

"You can build your army from any models in your collection."

 

Not at all.  I'm sure that's the intention.

 

The rules just don't support this, and break down *only* with Space Marines.

 

 

 

The armies are not bound by any Detachment Restrictions. I think that would include detachment restrictions from the codex's as well. So it doesn't matter that the codex requires you to have all the same chapter tactics in a single detachment.

 

Detachment Restrictions are now specific items.  I've shown where you can view them.  They are listed in each Detachment (of which there are two in the BRB, Combined Arms and Allied).

 

Even if (as I say above) you want to go that route, the Codex restriction of Codex: Space Marines would overrule the Unbound rule on Restricitons.

 

Codex > BRB...

 

 

 

You would only benefit from one chapter tactic and only if your warlord and the particular Chapter Tactic are your primary detachment. The rest of your space marines would be usable, but would not get the benefit of their chapter tactic, assuming they were of a different chapter. So you could take all the Chapter Masters in an unbound list.

 

You can't take minis with specific Chatper Tactics in the same detachment.  I've quoted that form Codex: Space Marines in the first post.  (Edit: It's even in bold...)

 

You *have* to take all Space Marines in the same detahcment.  That's an Unbound rule.

 

Therefore you are totally unable to take Kantor in an Unbound army that uses Clagar as your Warlord.

[Raeven]

But why not?  That's a Detachment restriction you are placing on the Space Marines that an Unbound list specifically allows.  I don't think it matters that the restriction comes from the codex itself.  

 

Space Marines are unique, in that they can ally with other Space Marines.  The Chapter Tactic is what allows such an alliance.  Unbound breaks all of those restrictions and throws them out the window.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

But why not? That's a Detachment restriction you are placing on the Space Marines that an Unbound list specifically allows. I don't think it matters that the restriction comes from the codex itself.

 

It's not a 'Detachment Restriction', but a restriction on Chapter Tactics, based on detachments.  GW have muddied this by creating a new speific, and giivng it a name they used elsewhere.

 

You have a 'Primary Detachment', but what *is* that?  It's not a Detachment to be found in the BRB, and a 'Primary Detchament' has no Detachment Restricitons (as defined by the new Core Rulebook).

 

 

 

Space Marines are unique, in that they can ally with other Space Marines. The Chapter Tactic is what allows such an alliance. Unbound breaks all of those restrictions and throws them out the window.

 

Yes, and that's fine with a Battle Forged army.

 

One *Detachment Restriction* is that you can't use an Allied Detachment (with use in a Battle Forged Army *only*) if it has the same Faction as your Primary Combined Arms detachment.

 

Codex: Space MArines rules on Allies gets round this.  Allowing you to use the same *Faction* in both a Combined Arms Detachment *and* an Allied Detachment.

 

Which you would otherwise by unable to do.

 

But *none* of this applies to Unbound armies, that don't use Combined Arms or Allied Detachments.

[Brother Casman]

I think part of the problem here is that GW has used the word 'detachment' twice. Once as 'detachment' and again as 'Detachment'. With Unbound armies, the keyword is clearly Primary and not detachment. In other words, what part of the army leads the whole? Combined Arms and Allied both have the keyword Detachment. Which we can use to build up the Battle-Forged army, adhere to Detachment Restrictions, etc. I agree, GW probably should have used a different term for one or the other. For Unbound, I'd be tempted to refer to a Primary Army, with the other armies making up an Army Group, but that's just me.

 

My takeaway from this is if you're talking about Detachment Restrictions, you are only talking about Battle-Forged armies, because Detachment Restrictions only apply to Detachments. (<- note the capitals!) The intent for Unbound armies is probably that the portion of your army with Chapter Tactics Ultramarines and your warlord forms the Primary army, while the portion of your army with Chapter Tactics Salamanders forms another army, which just so happens to be Battle-brother allies with your Primary. Whether or not we can back this up with the rules, I have no idea. I left my rulebooks at home.

[SvenONE]

I agree it's really murky.  The whole Unbound thing to me is GW's way of saying "we give up, just do what you want."  

 

I don't see why you couldn't run a 13 warriors-esque list of every chapter master using all of their own chapter tactics.   The C:SM says mark for each detachment, unbound then says they aren't bound by any Detachment restrictions.  

 

The thing about the OP's example is that the C:SM book also says that for allying purposes, you can use different chapters, this is to simulate Ultramarines and Raven Guard fighting together while retaining their special rules.  So to me I don't really see an issue, especially since it's Unbound, and you've already thrown all sense out the window in the first place.

[Gentlemanloser]

13th Warrior is awesome. :)

[GreyCrow]

From my understanding, the Primary detachment is the one that has the Warlord, and it must be a Combined Arms detachment.

 

Warlords can never be chosen from Allied Detachment, and Unbound armies do not have detachments, only Battle Forged.

 

The key point here is that if you use 2 Combined Arms Detachments, your Warlord determines which is the Primary Detachment.

[netminder69]

It's true that there's no such thing as a Primary Detachment. It's more a designation for other rules items. However, even though Unbound doesn't use detachments, it still has a primary detachment.

 

So, as you said, does this allow mixed chapter tactics or not? I think the Occam's Razor answer is from the FAQ. Even though it's talking about Allied Detachments, the Primary Detachment has to be one CT and one CT only. So any characters, troops, etc that would be using the same CT as the Warlord would comprise the Primary and anything else would be outside it.

 

As for if the outsiders get any CTs or not, I have no answer for that.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

From my understanding, the Primary detachment is the one that has the Warlord, and it must be a Combined Arms detachment.

 

Currently, for a Battle Forged Army, the Primary Detachment *must* be a Combined Arms Detachment, as there no other choice (the Allied one is restricted).  But as noted, there might/will be more Detachments released in the Future.

 

 

 

Warlords can never be chosen from Allied Detachment, and Unbound armies do not have detachments, only Battle Forged.

 

The key point here is that if you use 2 Combined Arms Detachments, your Warlord determines which is the Primary Detachment.

 

The Key Point is that you don't use either Combined Arms or Allied Detachments in an Unbound list.

[GreyCrow]

Exactly, it specifically says that Battle Forged are organized in detachments, while Unbond is bring whatever you want without formal organization.

 

Which is why I really think Unbound Space Marine armies would get no Chapter Tactics, although they would get a Warlord with a (non rerollable) Warlord Trait.

[Lucien Eilam]

Currently, for a Battle Forged Army, the Primary Detachment *must* be a Combined Arms Detachment, as there no other choice (the Allied one is restricted).

Nope:

 

Imperial Knights Detachment

Legion of the Damned Detachment

Inquisitorial Detachment

 

All have their own Force Org chart and specifically state they can be taken as your Primary Detachment.

[Kristoff]

It's true that there's no such thing as a Primary Detachment. It's more a designation for other rules items. However, even though Unbound doesn't use detachments, it still has a primary detachment.

Incorrect. There is such a thing as a Primary Detachment, even in Unbound, it just doesn't have any specific details of its organization except for 1 Warlord, and relies on others to define it for Battle-Forged lists. Also, some other codices, such as Imperial Knights, do not use a Combined Arms Detachment, but may still be the Primary Detachment in a Battle-Forged list.

 

But it is important to have a Primary Detachment, even in an Unbound FOC. Look at the rules for the Dark Angel Wing Captains and Chapter Master to know why. The difference with an Unbound Primary Detachment and a Battle-Forged Primary Detachment is that the Unbound has no limits or requirements to the number of slots being used, while the Battle-Forged is quite specific.

 

So, as you said, does this allow mixed chapter tactics or not? I think the Occam's Razor answer is from the FAQ. Even though it's talking about Allied Detachments, the Primary Detachment has to be one CT and one CT only. So any characters, troops, etc that would be using the same CT as the Warlord would comprise the Primary and anything else would be outside it.

 

Correct. The problem is when you go to add another model that doesn't have a generic Chapter Tactic such as Pedro or Crusader Squads. OR in cases where you want them to have a different Chapter Tactic (White Scar Bike Troops with Fist Devastators, for example).

 

Where the problem lies is that there is no room, even in the Errata, for another Detachment in Unbound from the same codex as the Primary. And that second Detachment (whether Combined or Allied) is required in order to run a separate Chapter Tactic.

 

Currently, for a Battle Forged Army, the Primary Detachment *must* be a Combined Arms Detachment, as there no other choice (the Allied one is restricted).  But as noted, there might/will be more Detachments released in the Future.

 

They already exist in the Inquisitors and Imperial Knights. 

  

Exactly, it specifically says that Battle Forged are organized in detachments, while Unbond is bring whatever you want without formal organization.

 

Which is why I really think Unbound Space Marine armies would get no Chapter Tactics, although they would get a Warlord with a (non rerollable) Warlord Trait.

They can't not have Chapter Tactics (aside from the Vehicles), as every Infantry and Bike-type unit in the codex has that rule.

[Raeven]

 

But why not? That's a Detachment restriction you are placing on the Space Marines that an Unbound list specifically allows. I don't think it matters that the restriction comes from the codex itself.

 

It's not a 'Detachment Restriction', but a restriction on Chapter Tactics, based on detachments.  GW have muddied this by creating a new speific, and giivng it a name they used elsewhere.

 

You have a 'Primary Detachment', but what *is* that?  It's not a Detachment to be found in the BRB, and a 'Primary Detchament' has no Detachment Restricitons (as defined by the new Core Rulebook).

 

 

 

Space Marines are unique, in that they can ally with other Space Marines. The Chapter Tactic is what allows such an alliance. Unbound breaks all of those restrictions and throws them out the window.

 

Yes, and that's fine with a Battle Forged army.

 

One *Detachment Restriction* is that you can't use an Allied Detachment (with use in a Battle Forged Army *only*) if it has the same Faction as your Primary Combined Arms detachment.

 

Codex: Space MArines rules on Allies gets round this.  Allowing you to use the same *Faction* in both a Combined Arms Detachment *and* an Allied Detachment.

 

Which you would otherwise by unable to do.

 

But *none* of this applies to Unbound armies, that don't use Combined Arms or Allied Detachments.

 

 

Chapter Tactics fit the very definition of a detachment restriction.  It explains how, to take any chapter tactic, you must take all of the same in each detachment.  

 

I think the thing that is confusing is the part where it says, "considered your primary detachment for all rules purposes."  This means in an unbound army, your warlord faction acts as Primary detachment, but it is not actually a detachment.  So this would mean that, unless you take all of the same chapter tactic, you wouldn't benefit from any chapter tactic.  I'm sure there are things that say, "affects primary detachment" or is "restricted by units in primary detachment."

 

I honestly don't think any detachment restrictions apply.  The evidence is, twice you are told you can take any units in your collection.  And in each book, if you can have multiple detachments from the same book, you are given a list of restrictions for each detachment.  I think these fully fit the category of detachment restrictions that you just ignore when running an Unbound list.

[Gentlemanloser]

Chapter Tactics fit the very definition of a detachment restriction.

 

No it doesn't.

 

You would have to show a picture of the Detachment, with it's associated FoC and Detachment Restriction for that to be true.

 

"Detachment Restriction" is a specific term in 7th.

 

You can see an example of it on page 122.  For a Combined Arms Detachment its restriction is;

 

All units chosen must have the same faction (or no faction)

 

 

Also check Page 120 and 121.  That lists what a Detachment Restriction is and also how a Detachment is displayed.

 

Restrictions are part 2, after FoC and before Command Benefits.

 

 

 

 

So this would mean that, unless you take all of the same chapter tactic, you wouldn't benefit from any chapter tactic.

 

How?  Why wouldn't you?  What has overruled the Codex restriction on single detachments having a single Chapter Tactics?

 

Is that not a *rule*, for which an Unbound Primary Detachment is in effect for (for all rules purposes...).

[Raeven]

The Unbound rules clearly state, in nice bold letters, that you can take any models you own and make an army out of them.  In my opinion, this eliminates all restrictions from the codex' that prevent you from bringing certain models.

 

For example, you can't bring Company Command Squads or Honor Guard without a Captain or Chapter master.  This is a restriction in the codex that is not, according to you, specifically eliminated by the Rule book.  So by being bound by these restrictions from the codex, that I think the rule book specifically says you are not bound by, no-one can take a whole company of Honor Guard, to represent their Chapters 1st company or whatever, unless they also bring a chapter master.

 

You can't have more than three dreadnoughts, unless you bring a Master of the Forge.

 

See where this is going?  You are either bound by these restrictions, or the rule book eliminates ALL of them.  If it eliminates all of the restrictions, then you cannot benefit from Chapter Tactics unless you follow the restrictions that Chapter Tactics follow.  If you mix chapters, you no longer have a single chapter tactic as part of your main detachment, thus lose the benefit.  If you don't, then you may still be able to take advantage of chapter tactics from your Space Marine army.