Unbound and Chapter Tactics

[GreyCrow]

I have found a piece of rule hidden in the BRB that will solve the issue.

 

It's right after the Unbound and Battle-Forged methods for selecting your army, under the "Primary Detachment" subtitle.

 

I will not copy the rules here, but what it says is that with Unbound, every model with the same faction as your Warlord is considered to be the Primary Detachment.

[Kristoff]

I believe the OP brings up that point, specifically.

 

Only resolution that I can think of is that any model with the generic Chapter Trait rule would naturally have what the Warlord has, if applicable. Any with a specific Chapter Trait would be the same as if it came from Puppies or Angels and NOT part of the Primary Detachment.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Unbound rules clearly state, in nice bold letters, that you can take any models you own and make an army out of them.  In my opinion, this eliminates all restrictions from the codex' that prevent you from bringing certain models.

 

For example, you can't bring Company Command Squads or Honor Guard without a Captain or Chapter master.  This is a restriction in the codex that is not, according to you, specifically eliminated by the Rule book.  So by being bound by these restrictions from the codex, that I think the rule book specifically says you are not bound by, no-one can take a whole company of Honor Guard, to represent their Chapters 1st company or whatever, unless they also bring a chapter master.

 

You can't have more than three dreadnoughts, unless you bring a Master of the Forge.

 

See where this is going?  You are either bound by these restrictions, or the rule book eliminates ALL of them.  If it eliminates all of the restrictions, then you cannot benefit from Chapter Tactics unless you follow the restrictions that Chapter Tactics follow.  If you mix chapters, you no longer have a single chapter tactic as part of your main detachment, thus lose the benefit.  If you don't, then you may still be able to take advantage of chapter tactics from your Space Marine army.

 

All very good points.

 

But it's still Codex > BRB.

 

If your Codex says only three Dreads (which I'm not sure the Space Marine Codex actually says...) without a MotF, then even in an Unbound Army it's three dreads max if no MotF.

 

Edit: Codex: Space Marine doesn't say that.

 

What it does say is;

 

 

 

Lord of the Armoury: If a detachment includes a Master of the Forge,

Dreadnoughts, Venerable Dreadnoughts and Ironclad Dreadnoughts may be

taken as heavy support choices as well as elites choices in that detachment.

 

Which has no effect on an Unbound army, as there is no FoC to follow.

 

But by all means, take a MotF to give your Dreads other *Battlefield Roles* (Page 119)

 

Edit:  The command squad / honour guard restrictions *aren't* Detachment Restrictions.  So they stay in Place.

 

No bringing 17 Honour Guard Squads without a Chapter Master in an Unbound List.

 

Just like Grey Knights would still be limited on the Number of Henchmen Units they could take, if they didn't take Coteaz.

[Kristoff]

If your Codex says only three Dreads (which I'm not sure the Space Marine Codex actually says...) without a MotF, then even in an Unbound Army it's three dreads max if no MotF.

True in cases like running 2 Calgars or Grimaldus', but where the limit is from FOC slots (like Dreads in a C:SM CAD), than it can be ignored.

[Raeven]

But there is no conflict. Unbound tells you to make your list out of any unit. No detachment restrictions.

 

A conflict would be more specific. Like the rule book saying you can only bring 3 elites, but the codex saying you can take as many elites as you want.

 

I guess what I mean to say is I don't think this falls under the codex > brb clause.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why does there need to be a conflict?

 

You Codex tells you how you can use the units in it.  You have to follow that.

 

Even if the BRB told you that (for Example) Grey Knights could use an unlimited number of Henchmen Squads in Unbound armies, our Codex will still tell us were are bound by the number of Inquisitors.

 

And the BRB *can't* overrule that.

 

 

 

True in cases like running 2 Calgars or Grimaldus', but where the limit is from FOC slots (like Dreads in a C:SM CAD), than it can be ignored.

 

Totally agreed!  The FoC (or slot use) isn't a Codex limitation in any way.

[Lucien Eilam]

I have found a piece of rule hidden in the BRB that will solve the issue.

It's right after the Unbound and Battle-Forged methods for selecting your army, under the "Primary Detachment" subtitle.

I will not copy the rules here, but what it says is that with Unbound, every model with the same faction as your Warlord is considered to be the Primary Detachment.

That's the rule that causes the issue.

An Ultramarine and a Salamander both have the same Faction, so they have to be considered the Primary Detachment. But the rule for how Chapter Tactics interact with Detachments is:

When choosing a Space Marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section. Mark the Chapter you choose for each detachment on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment’s Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule. Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter.

So if you have an Ultramarine Warlord, your green Space Marine has to be an Ultramarine, he can't be a Salamander. He has to go in that Detachment, because he has the same Faction, and the rules say everything in a Detachment uses the same Chapter Tactics.

If your green Space Marine is Vulkan, he cannot be taken in that Detachment because he has specific Chapter Tactics that don't match. Yet his Faction says he has to be in that Detachment.

There is no way to resolve the conflict and include Vulkan, or indeed any model with Chapter Tactics (Salamanders), in an army led by an Ultramarine Warlord without breaking one rule or the other.

(Which is totally fine, almost certainly the intention, and I'm sure what everyone will do. We're just saying: that's not what the book tells you to do, and you need to break a rule to do it.)

[Raeven]

Why does there need to be a conflict?

 

You Codex tells you how you can use the units in it. You have to follow that.

 

Even if the BRB told you that (for Example) Grey Knights could use an unlimited number of Henchmen Squads in Unbound armies, our Codex will still tell us were are bound by the number of Inquisitors.

 

And the BRB *can't* overrule that.

 

True in cases like running 2 Calgars or Grimaldus', but where the limit is from FOC slots (like Dreads in a C:SM CAD), than it can be ignored.

Totally agreed! The FoC (or slot use) isn't a Codex limitation in any way.

Why can't it? Unbound tells us clearly and more than once, you can use any "Units in your collection." This is a blanket override that allows you to bring whatever you want, even if they would otherwise be restricted.

 

Honor guard are a unit. Command squads are a unit. Characters with a specific chapter tactic is a unit.

 

Right?

[Grey Mage]

So... as far as the chapter tactics go, it seems straightforward: You dont pick chapter tactics per unit, you pick them per detachment.

All models from the same codex as the warlord are considered part of the same detachment- the primary detachment.

Thus, they must all have the same chapter tactic.

Its not the rules for warforged or unbound at htat point which are preventing you from taking Vulcan and Grimauldus, but rather the rules for chapter tactics- which do not allow you to mix and match in the same detachment.

 

[Brother Casman]

 

I have found a piece of rule hidden in the BRB that will solve the issue.

 

It's right after the Unbound and Battle-Forged methods for selecting your army, under the "Primary Detachment" subtitle.

 

I will not copy the rules here, but what it says is that with Unbound, every model with the same faction as your Warlord is considered to be the Primary Detachment.

 

 

:lol:

 

That's the rule that causes the issue.

 

An Ultramarine and a Salamander both have the same Faction, so they have to be considered the Primary Detachment. But the rule for how Chapter Tactics interact with Detachments is:

 

When choosing a Space Marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section. Mark the Chapter you choose for each detachment on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment’s Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule. Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter.

 

 

So if you have an Ultramarine Warlord, your green Space Marine has to be an Ultramarine, he can't be a Salamander. He has to go in that Detachment, because he has the same Faction, and the rules say everything in a Detachment uses the same Chapter Tactics.

 

If your green Space Marine is Vulkan, he cannot be taken in that Detachment because he has specific Chapter Tactics that don't match. Yet his Faction says he has to be in that Detachment.

 

There is no way to resolve the conflict and include Vulkan, or indeed any model with Chapter Tactics (Salamanders), in an army led by an Ultramarine Warlord without breaking one rule or the other.

 

(Which is totally fine, almost certainly the intention, and I'm sure what everyone will do. We're just saying: that's not what the book tells you to do, and you need to break a rule to do it.)

Bingo. This sums it up perfectly, I think.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

This is a blanket override that allows you to bring whatever you want, even if they would otherwise be restricted.

 

If BRB > Codex.

 

But it isn't.

 

Without Coteaz, the Grey Knight Faction is limited, by it's Codex, on bringing a number of Henchmen Units no greater than the Number of Inquisitors.

 

There is *nothing* in the BRB that can change this.  The BRB could literally say "Ignore the limitation caused by Inquisitors on the number of Henchmen Units Grey Knights can bring", and we would still be bound to use the Codex rule and Codex restriction.

 

As ultimately silly as that would be (and of which no one would...).  I really had high hopes 7th would move from Codex > BRB to Specific > General.  But alas...

 

What a GK player of an Unbound Army could do (if they didn't want to use Coteaz) is bring an unlimited number of Inquisitors.  Which would allow them to bring a number of henchmen up to the number of Inquisitors.  But not more.

[Lucien Eilam]

Its not the rules for warforged or unbound at htat point which are preventing you from taking Vulcan and Grimauldus, but rather the rules for chapter tactics- which do not allow you to mix and match in the same detachment.

 

Kind of. It's the interaction between the Unbound rules and the Chapter Tactics rule that stops you. Chapter Tactics alone is fine.

 

You can put them both in a Battle-forged army.

 

You can put them both in an Unbound army with a Warlord who isn't chosen from Codex Space Marines.

 

You cannot put them both in an Unbound army with a Codex Space Marines Warlord.

 

By the letter of the rules, anyway. The intention seems to be clear: take whatever you want, go wild. There's just this one weird little technicality that stops you doing it for one army.

[Dam13n]

Surely the point of unbound is to create whatever army you see fit.

 

This should therefore throw out all restrictions and allow the player to create whatever (god-forsaken abomination of an) army they want.

 

If this means mixed Chapter Tactics - fine

If this means throwing out unit restrictions - fine

 

The whole point of unbound games is to throw such restrictions under the bus.

 

Does this work for competitive play? - of course not.

Does this work when someone places the dreaded army of bare grey plastic down and says that two identical looking units have different chapter tactics? - no.

 

However if my opponent had a painted unbound army where each unit was identifiable as belonging to it's parent chapter - that should be fine.

The moment we agreed to an Unbound game, it should be just that - unbound.  BRB and Codex restrictions, as they pertain to army selection, are dumped in a hole and forgotten.

 

It's not RAW, but it's the only way of interpreting unbound that makes sense to me.

[AnvilofFenris]

I wouldn't be surprised to see this FAQ'd as something along the lines of "for Unbound armies, choices from Codex: Space Marines using different Chapter Tactics count as being from different Factions" which would clear things up pretty well. Have Calgar as your Warlord leading Ultramarines, then use the Allies matrix to bring Salamanders, Black Templars and Raven Guard to the party. One thing we need to remember is that we're using a 6th edition Codex with 7th edition rules, so there will be some inconsistencies at first.

[gazmac]

So if i use Bray'arth Ashmantle as a warlord (in unbound army) I can use any dreadnought in the army-(chaplins, Librarians and Contempters etc)for they are spacemarines

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see this FAQ'd as something along the lines of "for Unbound armies, choices from Codex: Space Marines using different Chapter Tactics count as being from different Factions" which would clear things up pretty well. Have Calgar as your Warlord leading Ultramarines, then use the Allies matrix to bring Salamanders, Black Templars and Raven Guard to the party. One thing we need to remember is that we're using a 6th edition Codex with 7th edition rules, so there will be some inconsistencies at first.          

 

That would only solve the issue for the Primary Detachment.  Which isn't an issue anyway.

 

Even if all other Space Marines were counted as belonging to different factions, it still wouldn't matter.

 

As they would all belong to no Detachment, and still couldn't benefit from a Chapter Tactic.  Or still require all the same Chapter Tactics.

 

The problem is tying the selection of a Chapter Tactic to a *Detachment*.  With Unbound only having a single one.  The Primary.