What is in a Grey Knight Brotherhood?

[Ania Redfang]

As title really, I am trying to slowly build up a brotherhood, and I know that they are roughly equivalent to a Space Marine Company, 100 battle-brothers in a mix of Strike, Purge, Intercept and Terminator Squads, but what else is in a Brotherhood? Rhinos? Dreadnoughts? Do we have command squads aside from the Brotherhood Champion? Any details that are available would be great. Also anything that there is on the make up of the Purifier and Paladin brotherhoods would be awesome too.

Thanks guys.

Best

[Valerian]

Page 12 of the codex, Chapter Organization; that's all there is to know, since all previous fluff on the organization of the Grey Knights was wiped with the publication of the 5e codex.

 

V

[Quozzo]

The Brotherhood Champion is not part of a command squad, but is part of the command structure for each brotherhood, along with the Brother-Captain and Grand Master. The brotherhood champion acts as a bodyguard for the Brother-Captain, so would usually be seen in concert with him.

 

Each of the eight brotherhoods have around 100 Grey Knights, not including the command structure, and each could in theory fulfill any role their brother-captain assigns to them, purgator, terminator or strike squad.

 

The Purifier order is a separate entity that acts much like a brotherhood, but as there are only 8 grand masters I don't think they have one although that is not explicitly stated. They usually only number around 40 at any given time.

 

Paladins are also a separate order but act as the command squad for the Grand Master, as such they don't count towards the number of Grey Knights in any single brotherhood.

 

Rhinos, Razorbacks, Land Raiders and Stormravens etc, are not given exact numbers but as Grey Knights can use what they want then they will always have one available if needed. Unlike regular chapters, any Grey Knight can equip terminator armour so the smaller transports wound be needed in fewer numbers than normal. Although technically if they all wanted to use Purgation tactics then maybe a whole brotherhood would have 10 rhinos on standby. As I said, there are no numbers for them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Brotherhood Champion is not part of a command squad, but is part of the command structure for each brotherhood, along with the Brother-Captain and Grand Master. The brotherhood champion acts as a bodyguard for the Brother-Captain, so would usually be seen in concert with him.

 

Brotherhood Champions don't have any command role, that's the point. They do have a role off the battlefield training the initiates and generally honing the melee skills of their brotherhood. However, in battle, command is strictly relegated to the ranking Captain or Grand Master, and down to the Justicars. Champs focus on keeping their commanding officer alive, hence they are amazing at melee but only carry a storm bolter as a sidearm. 

Each of the eight brotherhoods have around 100 Grey Knights, not including the command structure, and each could in theory fulfill any role their brother-captain assigns to them, purgator, terminator or strike squad.

 

Well no, as each squad is already assigned a role. It's true that in rare circumstances the Knights will all don their TDA and fight-en masse as Terminators, but more commonly they operate as a mixture of squad types (I believe the codex says 3x Terminator, 3x Strike and 3x Purgator is the preferred default, but Captains and Grand Masters can and will mix it up to suit mission needs). That's why Terminators have no unique psychic power (or didn't rather...silly 7th), as they represent either fresh Knights newly assigned to the Brotherhood, or squads being told to go Terminator because their specialist armour or loadouts won't cut it. Each Knight specialist squad requires different training and even psychic abilities (again, used to, now we'll all banishing and hammerhanding...sigh), so its not easy for even a squad member to change. Changing the whole unit to a new style is dumb, if a Purgator Justicar already does a fine job mowing down the enemy, he's better doing that then trying to be a Strike or Interceptor. 

The Purifier order is a separate entity that acts much like a brotherhood, but as there are only 8 grand masters I don't think they have one although that is not explicitly stated. They usually only number around 40 at any given time.

 

Their leader holds the title of Castellan, in the current timeline its Crowe. They don't have a Grand Master or Captain, as they're too small a formation and they are specialised along a different path to the rest of the Chapter. They're usually assigned piecemeal to missions, they rarely fight as one. 

Paladins are also a separate order but act as the command squad for the Grand Master, as such they don't count towards the number of Grey Knights in any single brotherhood.

 

They're not a command squad, they don't hold an officer rank (although they are held in high esteem and are expected to take over command temporarily should their Grand Master fall in battle). They represent the finest bodyguards the Chapter has. Captains get a single warrior to keep them alive, but Grand Masters get an entire inner circle of chosen warriors. Paladins are drawn from the same Brotherhood to form bodyguard units, and they have to pass a bunch of insane trials to earn it. I believe off the battlefield they also serve as guards to key areas of the Chapter fortress on Titan.

Rhinos, Razorbacks, Land Raiders and Stormravens etc, are not given exact numbers but as Grey Knights can use what they want then they will always have one available if needed. Unlike regular chapters, any Grey Knight can equip terminator armour so the smaller transports wound be needed in fewer numbers than normal. Although technically if they all wanted to use Purgation tactics then maybe a whole brotherhood would have 10 rhinos on standby. As I said, there are no numbers for them. 

 

Their vehicle pool is theoretically unlimited, as they have a small forge-moon around Saturn and their proximity to Mars means they can get new ones built if need be. But as you say, the Chapter rarely engages in mechanised warfare, and their primary infantry unit can't fit into anything except Land Raiders or Ravens. I'd imagine the Chapter has about the same number as other Marine Chapters, they just don't use them as often. Same for Dreads, they could have any number of Brother-Ancients if they wanted, but most Knights hate it and avoid it at all costs. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Champs focus on keeping their commanding officer alive, hence they are amazing at melee but only carry a storm bolter as a sidearm.

 

Why?

 

Ditch that Storm Bolter for a Storm Shield.

 

Then ZOMG LOOK OUT SIR!!  To keep him alive. ;)

[Quozzo]

Wow whats with the hostility.

 

I never said champions have a command role, but they are part of the command structure as they follow the brother-captain around and so do not count towards the 100 Grey Knights.

 

Each Grey Knight has been trained in all roles they may be inclined to take. If they do favour one particular type of fighting style then they simply can't change squads as each Knight in the squad is perfectly attuned to one another. Where does it say that Grey Knights keep to one particular unit unless in dire circumstances.

 

Of course, Castellan! Crowe hold two titles in the order, brotherhood-champion and castellan, so why is he so :cuss.

 

Paladins do act as the command squad. I got that strait from the codex but will check when I can.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Of course, Castellan! Crowe hold two titles in the order, brotherhood-champion and castellan, so why is he so :cuss.

 

Crowe...

 

Back in your stasis field!  Before you take a Lascannon to the knee and release the most potent Daemon Weapon the Galaxay has ever known back into general distribution.

 

Using it as a Pointy Stick...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Why?

Ditch that Storm Bolter for a Storm Shield.

Then ZOMG LOOK OUT SIR!! To keep him alive.

The Emperor decreed only the Supreme Grand Master could wield a storm shield ;)

Wow whats with the hostility.

No hostility man, I just felt like some clarifications were needed, as you were glossing over or misrepresenting certain aspects of the Chapter. I apologise if I caused offence, it was not intended. I was critical of the content of your post, not of you :)

I never said champions have a command role, but they are part of the command structure as they follow the brother-captain around and so do not count towards the 100 Grey Knights.

'Command role' and 'part of command structure' are the same thing. The rank of Champion has nothing to do with command, its all about being a bodyguard to the Captain. Although, as I understand it, they are expected to take over command temporarily (although Joros apparently ascended to Grand Mastery over the 4th after his Grand Master died, so its possible but not common) should their GM fall. I don't think they'd be counted in the roster, they may not be an officer but they're permanently seconded to him. I'm pretty sure the 100 figure is only nominal anyway, like with regular Marines (the Knights most certainly do not follow the Codex Astartes).

Each Grey Knight has been trained in all roles they may be inclined to take. If they do favour one particular type of fighting style then they simply can't change squads as each Knight in the squad is perfectly attuned to one another. Where does it say that Grey Knights keep to one particular unit unless in dire circumstances.

Its in the codex. Each squad is trained in a specific role, otherwise there would be no point to having the different squad types and different squad powers. It also mentions heavily that changing to a new squad requires the Knight to un-learn his old squad's specialism and learn the new abilities and mindset of the squad he is now part of. Ie if you were an Interceptor and used to fast charges and rapid movement, if you're assigned to a Purgator squad you are expected to lay down covering fire and use heavy weapons. Its a factor in real armies too, you don't assign the artillery company to front-line assaults. Marines are highly flexible heavy infantry by default, but like the men they're created from, they differ in their individual strengths.

Of course, Castellan! Crowe hold two titles in the order, brotherhood-champion and castellan, so why is he so :cuss.

Well it makes sense, they're a small faction within the Chapter so combining the role is sensible.

Paladins do act as the command squad. I got that strait from the codex but will check when I can.

Yeah they're a command squad but they do not give orders, they are only deployed to safeguard a Grand Master or an Apothecary (as both are rare and irreplaceable assets to the Chapter).

[Gentlemanloser]

The Emperor decreed only the Supreme Grand Master could wield a storm shield

I think it's rather that Draigo sucked the Chapters only Storm Shield into the Warp...

[stephane4985]

The Emperor decreed only the Supreme Grand Master could wield a storm shield

I think it's rather that Draigo sucked the Chapters only Storm Shield into the Warp...

hahaha. That make me laugh!

Thanks

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think it's rather that Draigo sucked the Chapters only Storm Shield into the Warp...

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/UOd3WFn.jpg

[Grand Master Caloth]

^ I just about fell out of my chair I am laughing so hard, not even kidding

[Grand Master Caloth]

Accidental double post

[Gentlemanloser]

:D

 

My job here is done for the day!

 

Time for an Innis & Gunn.

[Quozzo]

Wow whats with the hostility.

No hostility man, I just felt like some clarifications were needed, as you were glossing over or misrepresenting certain aspects of the Chapter. I apologise if I caused offence, it was not intended. I was critical of the content of your post, not of you

I'm not offended, but you brushed what I said aside as though it was wrong, when in fact it wasn't.

I never said champions have a command role, but they are part of the command structure as they follow the brother-captain around and so do not count towards the 100 Grey Knights.

'Command role' and 'part of command structure' are the same thing. The rank of Champion has nothing to do with command, its all about being a bodyguard to the Captain. Although, as I understand it, they are expected to take over command temporarily (although Joros apparently ascended to Grand Mastery over the 4th after his Grand Master died, so its possible but not common) should their GM fall. I don't think they'd be counted in the roster, they may not be an officer but they're permanently seconded to him. I'm pretty sure the 100 figure is only nominal anyway, like with regular Marines (the Knights most certainly do not follow the Codex Astartes).

Brotherhood-champions follow the brother-captain around to guard him. You even stated that they can take command of the brotherhood but are not part of the command structure? What structure are they a part of if not command. I think the confusion lies in the "chapter command" section in the codex, which doesn't mention the brotherhood champion, but the command structure doesn't necessarily mean only those who can command. The commanders, like the GKGM need protection and serfs who are also part of the command structure.

Each Grey Knight has been trained in all roles they may be inclined to take. If they do favour one particular type of fighting style then they simply can't change squads as each Knight in the squad is perfectly attuned to one another. Where does it say that Grey Knights keep to one particular unit unless in dire circumstances.

Its in the codex. Each squad is trained in a specific role, otherwise there would be no point to having the different squad types and different squad powers. It also mentions heavily that changing to a new squad requires the Knight to un-learn his old squad's specialism and learn the new abilities and mindset of the squad he is now part of. Ie if you were an Interceptor and used to fast charges and rapid movement, if you're assigned to a Purgator squad you are expected to lay down covering fire and use heavy weapons. Its a factor in real armies too, you don't assign the artillery company to front-line assaults. Marines are highly flexible heavy infantry by default, but like the men they're created from, they differ in their individual strengths.

Yes it takes time to re-master their abilities (sounds better than relearn imo), but they can fulfill any role their brother-captain wants them to. Obviously they're not going to be changing roles as often as perhaps weapons, but they do. Nor does it mention how quick the Emperors finest can suppress other abilities for ones designated for their role.

Paladins do act as the command squad. I got that strait from the codex but will check when I can.

Yeah they're a command squad but they do not give orders, they are only deployed to safeguard a Grand Master or an Apothecary (as both are rare and irreplaceable assets to the Chapter).

I see you've gone back on what you said and now agree with me.

[lt051]

On a somewhat related note: has anyone actually used a brotherhood champion attached to a BC w/ termis? I know no one normally uses champ or BC, but with a hammer on the captain it would seem like an ok combo, especially for challenges

[Gentlemanloser]

Now they have lost Heroic Sacrifice, I see no reason to ever take a Brotherhood Champion.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm not offended, but you brushed what I said aside as though it was wrong, when in fact it wasn't.

I was attempting to clarify and correct. Wasn't my intention to brush aside, I just felt you were oversimplying certain aspects of it.

Brotherhood-champions follow the brother-captain around to guard him. You even stated that they can take command of the brotherhood but are not part of the command structure? What structure are they a part of if not command. I think the confusion lies in the "chapter command" section in the codex, which doesn't mention the brotherhood champion, but the command structure doesn't necessarily mean only those who can command. The commanders, like the GKGM need protection and serfs who are also part of the command structure.

I think we're disagreeing over terminology. To me 'command structure' implies they fit into the chain of command, which is only true in emergencies. Under normal circumstances, the Brotherhood Champion is busy being good with a sword, he never gives a single order because he's not part of the chain of command. Bro Champs aren't trained to be officers, they're selected for their skills at close protection and stabbing. They do possess a great deal of experience and expertise (as evidenced by their statline being superior to even Paladins, the Chapter elite), but giving orders isn't part of their role. Joros is an odd case I feel, more commonly you'd see Knights rise through the officer ranks by first being a Justicar, then a Captain, then a Grandmaster. The Chapter is of course practical above all else and will elevate the worthy even if they haven't gone through that normal progression of rank (Joros and Crowe being examples of that), but normally Bro Champs don't take command and most likely die defending their Captain.

Yes it takes time to re-master their abilities (sounds better than relearn imo), but they can fulfill any role their brother-captain wants them to. Obviously they're not going to be changing roles as often as perhaps weapons, but they do. Nor does it mention how quick the Emperors finest can suppress other abilities for ones designated for their role.

Knights are Knights, but they're still men after all that. Men differ in their skills and preferences, it would be better to work to those differing strengths. Also, even though Knights are highly trained and powerful , suppressing and then expressing new abilities would be a struggle for a re-assigned battle-brother. Asking entire squads to do it would be pretty risky and I doubt they'd do it outside of the most dire conflicts. At Armageddon Justicars questioned the order to suit up in TDA, because its so rare and they'd prefer to die in the armour that is their heritage. The Captain overruled them, but they didn't like it. Arguably, the Captain knew that TDA was the only armour that would have given them even the faintest hope of victory, so it was justified.

I see you've gone back on what you said and now agree with me.

Haha, nah like I mentioned earlier I think we have different interpretations of the same words. I do agree Paladins are a 'command squad', but they do not take part in giving orders and they stand outside the normal chain of command. If you think about it, Paladins are probably the most egotistical and vainglorious members of the Chapter, as they literally choose to give up their squad and Brotherhood. In any other Chapter it would be considered odd that your elite isn't a structured company, but a loose collection of like-minded glory hounds . Very much doubt the Chapter wants Paladins commanding other squads in battle, outside of extreme circumstances (ie somehow the enemy killed the Grand Master but the Paladins are not dead). Same for the Brotherhood Champion, which is an even lonelier path (although in the defense of Champs, at least they function as training masters to their Brotherhood, Paladins have little to do with the regular line brethren outside of active deployment).

Now they have lost Heroic Sacrifice, I see no reason to ever take a Brotherhood Champion.

Sadly this. I love the design of the Bro Champ, and I think he wasn't so bad in 5th and even 6th where he was arguably most relevant. But losing his signature ability is a huge blow, and sorta invalidates his entire purpose (ie in both rules and background, he's supposed to sacrifice himself to keep his Captain alive). Equally sad is that Brother-Captains were irrelevant from day 1 of our 5th edition reboot.

[Valerian]

I think we're disagreeing over terminology. To me 'command structure' implies they fit into the chain of command, which is only true in emergencies.

You two are definitely getting hung up on terminology. Being in the 'command structure' just means that the guy resides up in the headquarters with the commander, not that the guy actually would do any commanding. Back when I was a Cavalry Troop Commander I had a driver for my HMWWV; he supported me directly, and wasn't matrixed against any of the line platoons, or other sections in the Troop. Our Brotherhood Champion here is in a position analogous to that, although arguably in a much more vital role to the Brotherhood. That's all Quozzo was trying to say about the BroChamp; he wasn't trying to imply that any kind of additional command responsibility is inherent in that position.

 

Sadly this. I love the design of the Bro Champ, and I think he wasn't so bad in 5th and even 6th where he was arguably most relevant. But losing his signature ability is a huge blow, and sorta invalidates his entire purpose (ie in both rules and background, he's supposed to sacrifice himself to keep his Captain alive). Equally sad is that Brother-Captains were irrelevant from day 1 of our 5th edition reboot.

Agree whole-heartedly. The Brotherhood Champion is/was, at least to me, the best concept for a brand-new Grey Knights unit in the whole codex, but was poorly implemented. I'm really hoping he gets a good revision in the 7e codex to make him a worthwhile choice.

 

The Brother Captain sits in the exact same place as Space Marine Captains, and Wolf Guard Battle Leaders; there is almost nothing to drive you to play one, when you can instead chose the better-in-every-way Chapter Master or Wolf Lord. To fix any and all of these, the designers have to make them distinct from their superiors (the Chapter Master, Wolf Lord, and Grand Master, etc.)

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

WGBL have some slightly different stuff they can choose to WL's, don't they?

[Valerian]

WGBL have some slightly different stuff they can choose to WL's, don't they?

 

Only thing they get that is unique is access to Saga of the Hunter, which is why I used the caveat of "almost nothing to drive you to play one."  A Wolf Priest also has access to Saga of the Hunter though, and is also a clearly superior choice to a Battle Leader.

 

V

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You two are definitely getting hung up on terminology. Being in the 'command structure' just means that the guy resides up in the headquarters with the commander, not that the guy actually would do any commanding. Back when I was a Cavalry Troop Commander I had a driver for my HMWWV; he supported me directly, and wasn't matrixed against any of the line platoons, or other sections in the Troop. Our Brotherhood Champion here is in a position analogous to that, although arguably in a much more vital role to the Brotherhood. That's all Quozzo was trying to say about the BroChamp; he wasn't trying to imply that any kind of additional command responsibility is inherent in that position.

 

Ah k, I think we're all on the same page now. Cheers man. 

The Brother Captain sits in the exact same place as Space Marine Captains, and Wolf Guard Battle Leaders; there is almost nothing to drive you to play one, when you can instead chose the better-in-every-way Chapter Master or Wolf Lord. To fix any and all of these, the designers have to make them distinct from their superiors (the Chapter Master, Wolf Lord, and Grand Master, etc.)

 

They really need to reduce the price of Captains and their equivalents. There is only a powerfist between a BC and a GM, and yet the GM benefits from far greater wargear selections, an improved statline, 'Grand Strategy'...I honestly dunno why they bother writing the BC entry after that. 

Only thing they get that is unique is access to Saga of the Hunter, which is why I used the caveat of "almost nothing to drive you to play one."  A Wolf Priest also has access to Saga of the Hunter though, and is also a clearly superior choice to a Battle Leader.

 

Moot point, Rune Priests are generally all you see these days (sometimes you see Ragnar or Grimnar in a Wolfwing list). Especially in 7th, with the psychic phase being so crucial. 

[Valerian]

They really need to reduce the price of Captains and their equivalents. There is only a powerfist between a BC and a GM, and yet the GM benefits from far greater wargear selections, an improved statline, 'Grand Strategy'...I honestly dunno why they bother writing the BC entry after that.

The thing is, reducing the points futher isn't going to cut it. After observing the game for so many editions it has become completely clear to me that the designers absolutely must make each HQ/Independent Character selection completely unique, with their own abilities and gear to distinguish them from another. When you do what GW keeps doing to Marines, which is to offer what is essentially two versions of the exact same unit (examples given above), but with one scaled up a bit, players will always find the points to take the better selection; leaving the weaker version as an always predictable redundant choice.  As you said, "I don't know why they bother writing the ..entry," is exactly it.  These units would only ever see play in small games (500-750 points, for example), but even then, they are usually out-classed by other choices that actually buff units.

 

In order to make it work, specifically for Brother Captains, they need to get some sort of command-based buff to really provide that force-multiplier to their units, which would better represent their status in the fluff as commanders of the Brotherhoods, while helping them compete with alternatives.  Giving them "The Grand Strategy Junior" isn't going to suffice. 

[Quozzo]

The BC and GM have the same statline, except one has better BS. The other BS, not that BS, the only thing going for the GM is TGS. I'm going to be scolded for suggesting this, but I think GMs shouldn't have TGS and that it should be given to the captain as he is the tactician and reduce the BC wounds to 2 so he doesn't become the auto include. The GM should then be given a buff in combat, maybe increase his toughness to signify his long years on the field of battle, although that probably wont be enough. The BHC should then be given two wounds since the only reason to take him is now gone, or give him his damned psychic power back. See what I did there.

I've just seen Val's post on a wish-list (of sorts) for our next codex. I'll give it some sort and post my ideas in there.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

In order to make it work, specifically for Brother Captains, they need to get some sort of command-based buff to really provide that force-multiplier to their units, which would better represent their status in the fluff as commanders of the Brotherhoods, while helping them compete with alternatives. Giving them "The Grand Strategy Junior" isn't going to suffice.

I think it's a very easy solution to just give him that. It scales for smaller games, and it at least makes him relevant. 'Rites of Battle' or some other Leadership modifier would be nice, but not essential.

The thing is, reducing the points futher isn't going to cut it. After observing the game for so many editions it has become completely clear to me that the designers absolutely must make each HQ/Independent Character selection completely unique, with their own abilities and gear to distinguish them from another. When you do what GW keeps doing to Marines, which is to offer what is essentially two versions of the exact same unit (examples given above), but with one scaled up a bit, players will always find the points to take the better selection; leaving the weaker version as an always predictable redundant choice. As you said, "I don't know why they bother writing the ..entry," is exactly it. These units would only ever see play in small games (500-750 points, for example), but even then, they are usually out-classed by other choices that actually buff units.

Point costs do matter, however I agree that GW doesn't understand how to make each HQ choice relevant. I guess they expect people to use the rules to match their models character, not just go for the powerful option.

The BC and GM have the same statline, except one has better BS. The other BS, not that BS, the only thing going for the GM is TGS. I'm going to be scolded for suggesting this, but I think GMs shouldn't have TGS and that it should be given to the captain as he is the tactician and reduce the BC wounds to 2 so he doesn't become the auto include. The GM should then be given a buff in combat, maybe increase his toughness to signify his long years on the field of battle, although that probably wont be enough. The BHC should then be given two wounds since the only reason to take him is now gone, or give him his damned psychic power back. See what I did there.

It's more than that though. Grand Masters can be Mastery 2, and they have an expanded list of wargear selections (including those sweet rad and psycho grenades). Grand Masters have 'Grand Strategy' precisely because they are only deployed when a Captain is judged unable to carry out the mission. I feel if you take 'Grand Strategy' off Grand Masters, you just make them expensive beatsticks, which is bad design itself.

Agreed on the Bro Champ, but they'll never do it, they have ret-conned all our unique powers :(