Upcoming HH novels/audiobooks

[Millicant]

I will be starting a new thread soon to address this very issue. It is my humble opinion that the Dark Angels have received the worst treatment from Black Library of any of the legions. Unremembered Empire, a book about the Ultramarines, contained the best representation of the mighty First by a margin of inane proportions.

[Saphrael]

I will be starting a new thread soon to address this very issue. It is my humble opinion that the Dark Angels have received the worst treatment from Black Library of any of the legions. Unremembered Empire, a book about the Ultramarines, contained the best representation of the mighty First by a margin of inane proportions.

 

There's a hojillion threads about this already, and as I mentioned earlier it gets brought up Every. Single. Time. we talk about DA in the novels (40k or 30k). While I liked the UE stuff, some of it seemed a little off (especially the Curze v. Lion & Rowboat fight) or contained odd emphasis (like the marching and drill perfection).

 

I'd argue that much of AD-B's treatment of the First (notably in Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows) is more representative and skillful depictions of the essence of our legion. But this has been discussed at length elsewhere, so I won't get into it here.

[Augustus]

A graphic novel on Prospero? Isn't two full-length printed and audio-recorded novels enough? Its like that one movie where the cow just would not die(cookie for reference).

Kung Pow(sp) enter the fist?

[TemujinZero]

 It is my humble opinion that the Dark Angels have received the worst treatment from Black Library of any of the legions.

 

I think the Blood Angels, Salamanders and Raven Guard have come off arguably worse.  At least the 1st got the ADB bump alongside the various indignities heaped upon them.

[Perrin]

Nearly every fan of any Legion will argue that their Legion has been treated badly by the HH series if the Legion depicted doesn't match their personal take on their Legion. No need to start/derail anymore threads on it

[Anvilarium]

It is my humble opinion that the Dark Angels have received the worst treatment from Black Library of any of the legions.

I think the Blood Angels, Salamanders and Raven Guard have come off arguably worse. At least the 1st got the ADB bump alongside the various indignities heaped upon them.

Um.. Iron Hands?? At least the three you mention actually have a full-length Heresy novel each!

[Millicant]

Urza - I would gladly have no novels over the currently existing DA novels. It isn't about lack of representation, which at this point would be preferable.

 

In my opinion the Raven Guard are the only ones who challenge the DA for "worst BL representation" solely due to Deliverance Lost. I'm sorry guys.

 

Okay I'll stop ranting. I've just been losing my faith in what the Horus Heresy Dark Angels will come to be. I really really want to like them - I'm a DA player at heart. But yikes, it's a challenge right now. Know what I mean? I'm sorry for being such a negative nancy about it, I will try to be less irritating in the future.

[Hyaenidae]

Much like my Iron Warriors, you're gonna need to have faith that Forgeworld will give your boys kick ass fluff, because the primary authors covering our Legions... well, let's just be polite and say that McNeil, Scanlon and Lee tried the best they could. *Ahem*. Nothing further to say there.

 

The few times they have mentioned the I Legion in the FW books, they sound awesome. Hang on, son of the Lion. Your patience will be rewarded.

[Millicant]

Much like my Iron Warriors, you're gonna need to have faith that Forgeworld will give your boys kick ass fluff, because the primary authors covering our Legions... well, let's just be polite and say that McNeil, Scanlon and Lee tried the best they could. *Ahem*. Nothing further to say there.

 

The few times they have mentioned the I Legion in the FW books, they sound awesome. Hang on, son of the Lion. Your patience will be rewarded.

 

That is very inspiring.  Thank you.  

 

I will have faith.  Specifically, I hang my faith on Forgeworld and Alan Bligh.  Every legion they have touched so far has been awesome.  The First will be no different.  

[Anvilarium]

Urza - I would gladly have no novels over the currently existing DA novels. It isn't about lack of representation, which at this point would be preferable.

I bet you wouldn't say that if the shoe was genuinely on the other foot!

I actually quite enjoyed Deliverance Lost, apart from Omegon's moustache-twirling villainy. I also thought that Angel Exterminatus was pretty damn good too.

[Reinholt]

A few quick thoughts:

 

1 - I think the RG representation in Extermination was quite good. They clearly have a character, that character is an expansion of their traditional background (rather than a complete left-field retcon), and I think it shows the legion in a good light. I also think some of the hand-wringing about them regarding Gav Thorpe is... overwrought... mainly because Gav is not the best writer ever to live (and he would never claim to be), but he knows the background and has not completely jammed the RG. It's not like they went from stealth specialists to raging psychopath berserkers; I have lots of quibbles around the edges and I don't always love the plots, but it's not like I read it and say "that author clearly has zero idea of what the background for this legion or their character was previously". Gav's take may not always rate an A+ in my view, but neither is it an F-.

 

2 - To that end, the biggest issue with some of the legions (and DA is a great example here) is that they don't have any continuity because they are passed around like a hot potato. DA have gone from Scanlon to Lee to Thorpe to ADB to Abnett. I can't say they have a portrayal in the Heresy because, damn, they don't have any consistent thread.

 

3 - The legions that mainly appear offstage or have less background (Iron Hands) can be a huge advantage, in that it also gives the player much more scope to build their own portrayal. To that end, my starting point whenever I am considering legion stories / themes / ideas is the Forge World books (for those legions already covered). I find those leave lots of loose ends and plot holes to be filled, and give lots of rough terrain without a precise iteration on every detail.

 

To that end, I agree with the above: for the DA in particular, I'd be patient and wait for FW. After all, the RG background is pretty awesome in Extermination (in my view). There are literally zero of the FW backgrounds that I dislike, and all of them range from good to great for me.

[sitnam]

I must be the only one here, but I love Swallows work I've read. This includes Faith and Fire, the first two BA books, and especially Fear to Tread. Seems around B&C he doesnt get a ton of apperciation.

 

 

There are literally zero of the FW backgrounds that I dislike, and all of them range from good to great for me.

 

I think FW does their job extremely well in making the details for the different Imperial forces they cover. Not even HH, but the IA books too. Recruitment details, organization, fighting style. BL authors have a tougher time of it since they have to detail things at a more personal, ground level point of view.

[Wade Garrett]

The original Raven Guard fluff:

 

Desperate to rebuild his Legion, Corax uses forbidden genetic techniques which create monsters that he leads against the traitors. Sickened by his actions, after the Heresy, he gave his insane creations the Emperor's Peace and vanished into the Eye of Terror.

 

What Gav Thorpe gave us:

 

Desperate to rebuild his Legion, Corax travels to Terra and asks "Dad, you wouldn't happen to have some secret technology that could create Astartes who are faster, stronger, and reach battlefield viability three times as fast just lying around, would you?"

 

+Of course, son! Take every last sample of this priceless technology that could turn the tide of the war off the most secure planet in the galaxy, and be sure not to share it with your brother Rogal, because reasons.+

 

Then, suddenly, ALPHA LEGION R N UR BASE, BEING UR DOODZ, LOL NEWBZ.

 

Gav doesn't claim to be the best writer in the world? Whoopity-frikking-doo.

 

I'm not the best cook in the world, but that is not an excuse for setting the kitchen on fire, throwing gasoline on the flames, and then attacking the firefighters who show up with a machete!

[gogmagog]

Now that, is funny!

[Molokai]

Thanks Wade, I needed that :D

[helterskelter]

I'm curious, I can't remember the last warhammer 30k/40k thing wade enjoyed since I've been using the forum :p though I agree gav shouldn't be let near certain things. Elves yes. Marines no.

[Knight of the Raven]

I don't know if he enjoyed Rogal Dorn, but he certainly seems to respect him if I understood this post correctly:

 

You understand that we're talking about Rogal Dorn, right? This is a man who does not slink through the shadows, approaching his enemies under the camoflague of cowardice...and he does not ask his subordinates to make any sacrifices he wouldn't make himself. He is not Alpharius or Lorgar, to spend the lives of his sons or those under his protection like a merchant spends coin.

If there's a price to pay, he pays it himself. When the wolf is at the door, the barbarians are at the gates, or a Despoiler class warship is bearing down on a helpless planet, Rogal Dorn plants himself firmly in their path and says "Come on if you think you're hard enough."

If that means his own demise, what of it? "Duty is a mountain. Death is a feather."

 

And this is is coming from a Word Bearer. There is truly no praise like that from the enemy.

 

(Feel free to sacrifice me to the dark gods if I put words in your mouth, Wade Garrett.)

[Millicant]

Reinholt - I wholeheartedly agree with your 2nd and 3rd points. Those are very well articulated points. I also very much appreciate your kind words of inspiration at the end - felt like you were talking straight to me. :) There is hope for my legion.

 

Wade, I laughed so hard at your post. Holy crap.

[Kriegsmacht]

Don't worry sitnam you're not alone 'cause I enjoyed Fear To Tread as well.

 

So far the only novels/audiobooks that's got my interest this early is Garro: Shield of Lies, Master of Mankind, and Tallarn.

[sitnam]

I'm real interested in Tallarn too. It seems normal humans just routinely get stomped in HH, so a story about normal humans matching Legiones strength is really interesting.

 

I myself also  wanna read Danmation of Pythos. More Iron Hand goodness.

[Wade Garrett]

@Knight of the Raven

 

No, I said that, and I'll stand by it. It's never hard to tell the difference between the Emperor's Fist and a ray of sunshine or a barrel of laughs but when you need a rock to anchor something on, he's your man.

 

To quote a fellow member of the XVII at the battle of Calth:

"We may despise everything you stand for, but that does not prevent us from admiring the fervour with which you defend it."

 

As far as 30/40k things I've enjoyed recently:

 

Unremembered Empire, Angel Exterminatus (bar He Who Is Kin To Sharrows), and of course Betrayer.

 

40k....hmmm. Last 40k book I bought was Pariah. Which I liked.

 

It's just that I find it much easier to wax eloquent when I'm filled with seething bitterness (Wow! Much Word Bearer! So Chaos Marine! Very son of Lorgar! Wow.) than when I have my hands on a book I'm enjoying.

[captain Angel]

First I also loved fear to tread

 

Second, Dorn is one of my favorite primarchs for that reason, death means nothing if you died doing your duty.

 

Third, Garrett funniest thing I have read in a long time

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

the NL get AD-B again while we get saddled with Gav (let them swap for just one piece of work and see how the NL fans like it!)

 

LOL...I bet they wouldn't like it one bit. Thorpe and Swallow are both on my "do not read" list. One day I might give them another shot if one of their future novels benefits from good word of mouth...but as it is, no thank you.  

 

Fear to Tread and Deliverance Lost were completely wasted opportunities because of the authours' lack of writing skill.  

 

 

 

Gav's heresy stuff hasn't been that bad, especially the Raven Guard one.

 

Deliverance Lost is terrible IMO, not just because of the ill-conceived fluff changes but because Gav is simply a mediocre writer at best. 

 

Aye brother, the worst thing is that Ravens Flight was so awesome I picked up Deliverance Lost expecting more of Corax ripping the sides off tanks and being awesome instead all his intelligence seems to leave him on the voyage to Terra and he becomes a drooling imbicile.

 

I will be starting a new thread soon to address this very issue. It is my humble opinion that the Dark Angels have received the worst treatment from Black Library of any of the legions. Unremembered Empire, a book about the Ultramarines, contained the best representation of the mighty First by a margin of inane proportions.

I've not read Unremembered Empire yet though from what everyones saying about it I may have to skip Mark of Calth just to get to it quicker but surely Savage Weapons and The Lion were good representations? Of the Primarch atleast but I thought Corswain was pretty awesome too. I mean come on... 'Then I'm sorry, for such an unworthy blow.' Just that scene alone!

 

 

 It is my humble opinion that the Dark Angels have received the worst treatment from Black Library of any of the legions.

 

I think the Blood Angels, Salamanders and Raven Guard have come off arguably worse.  At least the 1st got the ADB bump alongside the various indignities heaped upon them.

 

I think most of the loyalists have been screwed over a little, largely due to lack of page time for some (I want more Imperial First beating traitors bloody!) but I do agree only in so far as the two Dark Angels books have been some of the worst of the series after Battle for the Abyss, Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost in my oppinion.

[Reinholt]

Wade - I think the issue with your view of Deliverance Lost is based around how one views the Emperor, in the end.

If you think he's just secretly a drooling idiot Chaos Spawn and denying the greatest weapon they have to Dorn because REASONS THAT ARE IMPORTANT, by which we mean he's a jackass, then of course you think the book is terrible.

Given everything that BL has written about how the future works and who the Emperor is, that's like claiming your doctor has no specialized knowledge when he makes a suggestion you don't understand, so f that guy, I'm avoiding these vaccines because they are evil and cause autism and celebrity told me that once! Of course, I am unsurprised a Word Bearer fan might hold that view about the Emperor...

My point is this, however:

BL and GW has repeatedly emphasized the point that divining the future using psychic powers and the warp is an inexact, probabilistic science. Taking the decision to give Rogal Dorn the geneseed secrets, what if the Emperor saw that 20% of the time, it wins the war, 70% of the time it doesn't, and 10% of the time it leads to the extinction of humanity because Dorn becomes a bigger monster than even Horus? Do you give it to him? What if the odds with Corax are 10%/90%/0%? What is the right decision?

Also, how do you deal with the fact that giving other people knowledge might change the probabilities? As in, you discuss the options with your best buddy Malcador, or maybe Dorn himself, and you both decide the 10% risk is worthwhile, only now that you have talked about it, you go back and look and it's 10%/10%/80%?

You can see this in the contradictory, weird, and unexplained actions of the Eldar all the time. Farseers know that even telling other people about what they have seen can change what is going on by changing the actions those other people will take, and are often left in the unenviable position of having to say "do this weird thing, and don't ask questions" if they want to influence things, or just taking actions that appear genuinely bizarre to outsiders.

If you view the Emperor as simultaneously very powerful but also trapped by the laws of the universe (as in, revealing what you know about the future causes the future to change, and thus invalidates what you know about it, which was only probabilistic and never completely certain to begin with), then the contradictory actions cease to be contradictory. Instead, it's someone with very powerful but imperfect knowledge attempting to navigate as best they can (though the open question of what their goal is remains...) and thus making decisions that necessarily appear confusing to everyone else.

This can either serve to make faith in the Emperor all the more important (you have to trust him!) or all the more tragic (bad news, he was just using you all to become a god and couldn't care less). Also, I'm not sure the retcon is bad in that it actually makes Corax all the more tragic: he got it right, but because Omegon duped him, he thinks he created a bunch of monsters and hates himself for it. It's like the guy who makes the game-winning goal in soccer, only to have it waved off because he was offsides, spends decades blaming himself, and then in the end it turns out the ref was paid off by a Singaporean gangster and the guy was actually onsides.

Edit: yes, it literally took me a month to get back to this thread, sorry.

[Saphrael]

A well written response Reinholt, and your 'the Emperor works in mysterious ways' theory is certainly a reasonable explanation.

 

However to me it is about as compelling as the 'God works in mysterious ways' explanation offered in theological debates in defence of morally perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent god who allows untold suffering to be exacted on all the species of our planet.* Which is to say that it's just an intellecually lazy device used to cover up an unconvincing narrative.

 

The difference is religious scholars don't have the luxury of being able to write their own prose, they have to make do with the texts they have (though I suppose that depends on who you ask). Black Library does have that luxury, so they shouldn't need the 'Emperor works in mysterious ways' excuse to cover for nonsensical prose, characters or actions... they could just write them sensibly in the first place. Maybe Gav deliberately wrote Deliverence Lost that way to emphasise the unknowability of the Emperor's designs, but given his track record for interally inconsistent prose I doubt it. For me the simplest (and more likely) explanation here  is that Gav once again as tripped over himself and failed to realise the dramatic potential of the establisehd lore.

 

*Note I'm not trying to start a debate on the moral perfection of the Abrahamic God, just reference the intellectual weakness of that particular explanation for the perceived inconsistencies of His moral behaviour.