Remembering the 13th Crusade: The End of Time

[A D-B]

Really fun campaign. This thread's at risk of being maudlin to the point of yet more Chaos Forum theatrics - and I think, honestly, we're all aware of that - but it was a great campaign. 

 

I like the rules*, the lore**, and the models*** more now, but the way the campaign evolved over the summer was one of my high points in the hobby. Glad the outcome doesn't stretch into eternity, though. I can't really see many advantages of keeping those results. It's no different from, say, deciding all of Star Wars' lore is changed by people's games of X-Wing. That's cool at the time, but a tiny, tiny, minority of the fandom took part in the campaign even then, let alone the current fandom now, and it's not a great way to manage the lore of an international multi-million pound license. You can disagree, of course, but 40K's always been (with that rare exception) about players filling in the blanks rather than changing the setting itself, and for all the fact it's easy to trumpet how grand and important the results were, it's... what, fifteen years later? And people still get those results wrong, and gravely damage the perception of what Chaos and Abaddon achieve(d). So I'm just as glad to be rid of them, even if it was a fun summer.

 

Worldwide campaigns that affected one world were such a great angle, though. I wish they'd bring those back. Ichar IV and Armageddon? Hell, yes.

 

 

 

* - Loving the return to Rogue Trader / Second Edition vibe of 7th so far. I apologise in advance.

 

** - For all that there's more bad stuff that people complain about, there's way, way, way more good stuff, and much more on offer overall. 

 

*** - Because duh.

[Chaeron]

Oh definitely, fighting over several fictional worlds that have little bearing on the rest of the established and maintained fluff would be absolutely fine - and a great way to manage it in future if they did want to do it. Lose nothing then. 

 

It was truly a golden era - so many good memories. If we had one of those for a summer again...

[Leif Bearclaw]

I like the rules*, the lore**, and the models*** more now, but the way the campaign evolved over the summer was one of my high points in the hobby. Glad the outcome doesn't stretch into eternity, though. I can't really see many advantages of keeping those results. It's no different from, say, deciding all of Star Wars' lore is changed by people's games of X-Wing. That's cool at the time, but a tiny, tiny, minority of the fandom took part in the campaign even then, let alone the current fandom now, and it's not a great way to manage the lore of an international multi-million pound license. You can disagree, of course, but 40K's always been (with that rare exception) about players filling in the blanks rather than changing the setting itself, and for all the fact it's easy to trumpet how grand and important the results were, it's... what, fifteen years later? And people still get those results wrong, and gravely damage the perception of what Chaos and Abaddon achieve(d). So I'm just as glad to be rid of them, even if it was a fun summer.

Worldwide campaigns that affected one world were such a great angle, though. I wish they'd bring those back. Ichar IV and Armageddon? Hell, yes.

* - Loving the return to Rogue Trader / Second Edition vibe of 7th so far. I apologise in advance.

** - For all that there's more bad stuff that people complain about, there's way, way, way more good stuff, and much more on offer overall.

*** - Because duh.

Afraid I have to disagree (at least in part) about the rules, fluff and models being better now.

Rules: This is the simple one, and the hardest to justify (without writing an essay) beyond 'this is what I think'. 4th and 5th represented the rules I had most fun with, and I think 7th is too similar to 6th to change my mind (but admittedly, there is till time for it to change my mind).

Lore: While there may well be more of it now, it's location seems to have switched to BL novels, audiobooks and novellas, rather than Codexes and White Dwarf. While this isn't necessarily bad, it is harder (not to mention more expensive ) to keep track of. So it seems like there's a lot less. Codices especially, seem so much lighter on fluff than they used to be. I miss the days where there would be entire WD articles only containing fluff, and almost every battle report had a little story before and after. To me, these little titbits were superb bits of 'forging the narrative', and were a far better incentive to do it yourself than any number of insert boxes in the rulebook.

One thing I really don't like though is how brutally static the fluff now is. While I can sort of see why they did this. I find it a bit grating when combined with the ongoing push to add things to the armies, resulting in heavy backloading retcons, whereas a bit more give in the stasis could allow them to introduce the new models and equipment as new tech, rather than 'they've had it for millennia, honest'. For example 'as m41 draws to a close, the emperor's tarot predicts a resurgence of war and strife across the Imperium. To help its forces meet the expected threats, the Mechanicus rush through the final testing of a new weapon for the Adeptus Astartes: the Centurion Warsuit. Performing well within acceptable limits, plans for the new exoskeletons are distributed among the Space marine Chapters, although only time and the rigours of combat will reveal how this new warsuit will compare to established heavy equipment patterns, including Tactical Dreadnought Armour'. By having new, unproven tech this also somewhat gets around the redundancy creeping into the ranges (such as 'why do assault centurions exist when the fulfill the same niche as Terminators?', or 'why make the Crimson Hunter/Nightshade Interceptor when the Eldar already had the Nightwing?') They do it with the Tau, why not everyone else? I'd love to see at least some fluff progression, instead of just recycling what we already have forever. Look at Captain Tycho, incorporating what happened in some studio battles and campaigns ended up charting the story and fall of Tycho, and the setting changed a little, because there was still some dynamism in it.

Models: This really is a mixed bag for me. While the overall quality has certainly improved over the last decade, all the models in the range I dislike are from the last few years. So they've become a lot more hit and miss for me, whereas back in the day I can't remember a model I disliked. It's probably all in my head, but a lot of the newer sculpts lack a certain 'soul' to me, I think this is down to the switch to CAD.

But overall, I think what a lot of people miss is the attitude of the old days. Now we have Dan Harden and Adam Troke being enthused about every single thing that's released, and we see that they have three Riptides straight out of the box. Whereas it used to be somewhat more specialised, you'd get Adrian Wood/Andy Chambers on Orks, Graham Davey/Pete Haines on Chaos, Matt Hutson on Tamplars/Marines, even Guy Haley with his own guard regiments. Point being it wasn't always the same 2/3 people. Forte said it well, in those days the studio seemed to exude hobby, with the emphasis on 'this thing we did is cool, we hope it inspires you' rather than 'this kit is new, we hope you buy it'.

[Clone]

To be honest I would've liked some change in the fluff, especially moving a little forward with the time line. I could see how the EoT campaign maybe would've been a step too far but there's nothing wrong with having a campaign based on system/planet xyz and the results being added to the fluff. Players would feel they achieved something without changing the major fluff of 40k.

[incinerator950]

I have to disagree with the EoT campaign pushing too far. Abbadon's losses were enough that he would have stalled out before likely taking the rest of Cadia. Yes, there are a few things pushing it, but this isn't anything like killing off squats or vomiting what they did to the C'tan.

 

They could have just as well capitalized on the after effects of the campaign, rather than wishwash it away. New Chapters and Guard armies raised, Eldar retribution fleets, more Chaos raiders pooring through the eye.

[Clone]

I have to disagree with the EoT campaign pushing too far. Abbadon's losses were enough that he would have stalled out before likely taking the rest of Cadia. Yes, there are a few things pushing it, but this isn't anything like killing off squats or vomiting what they did to the C'tan.

 

They could have just as well capitalized on the after effects of the campaign, rather than wishwash it away. New Chapters and Guard armies raised, Eldar retribution fleets, more Chaos raiders pooring through the eye.

Good point. I didn't take part in the campaign so I was assuming Chaos had taken Cadia completely.

 

They could go into a huge amount of detail about all the new chapters that were raised to deal with the 13th Crusade. Not only that but I'd love to read some fiction about Imperium and Eldar actually teaming up to hold back the Chaos tide.

[incinerator950]

I didn't either, but this topic is basically a history lesson.

[daboarder]

 

I have to disagree with the EoT campaign pushing too far. Abbadon's losses were enough that he would have stalled out before likely taking the rest of Cadia. Yes, there are a few things pushing it, but this isn't anything like killing off squats or vomiting what they did to the C'tan.

 

They could have just as well capitalized on the after effects of the campaign, rather than wishwash it away. New Chapters and Guard armies raised, Eldar retribution fleets, more Chaos raiders pooring through the eye.

Good point. I didn't take part in the campaign so I was assuming Chaos had taken Cadia completely.

 

They could go into a huge amount of detail about all the new chapters that were raised to deal with the 13th Crusade. Not only that but I'd love to read some fiction about Imperium and Eldar actually teaming up to hold back the Chaos tide.

 

The thing is, there was no "chaos" control, the measure was how far imperial control was eroded by. the DAKKA post I linked earlier has a very good and indepth explanation of the campaign the chaos forces were never going to erode cadia unless the dragged down the nearby systems, which they did.

[Karthak]

I hadn't found the BnC yet, so I was following along on the Campaign web site. I think I was the 3rd or fourth week, about the time they blew up St Josmane's Hope, that I recognized the trends from the main organized chaos forces. I started checking each week, and piling on to wherever I noticed control dropping. A bit of an opportunist strategy and following for the spoils, but what chaos force isn't?

I definitely enjoyed following along the reports, and I still have some of my cultists from that great LatD sprue bag.

I was 13 or 14 at the time. Didn't have anywhere near the amount of money needed to play the game, but I read the White Dwarf articles in the library. I remember having to restrain myself from swearing out loud (library, after all) when I read that Chaos had breached the gate, but the Tau doing really well was a decent consolation price.

[Prot]

I love what you guys have reflected on here. I've re-read several posts and many have refreshed my own memories of the event. Some areas I totally forgot about.

 

I gotta say though comparing what we did to a 'game of X wing' changing the lore of Star Wars feels almost... insulting, and greatly underestimating the monumental effort that happened on a planet wide scale (for people thoroughly engaged in this hobby).

 

Does this mean it was an event worthy of putting a bolded statement in the middle of 40K fluff? HELL YEA. I don't think anyone here was saying we should have or could have changed the out come of all future/past fiction of 40K but man that was a Platinum Standard of how to involve your fans/hobbiests/enthusiasts on an intergalactic level, and let's be honest it will probably NEVER happen again..... Think about that... it'll probably never happen again.

 

Obviously I'm... over enthusiastic about it. I remember it (as many do) as my favorite moment in 40K. I apologize for that.

[Karthak]

A question to those who fought: How come the Chaos side was well-organized, while the Imperials were an uncoordinated mess? 

[Prot]

A question to those who fought: How come the Chaos side was well-organized, while the Imperials were an uncoordinated mess? 

 

Too many cooks in the kitchen.

 

Don't get me wrong some loyalists were very well organized. Wolves for instance.... every subforum here had -some- form of organization. (LOTS of participation).

 

However, as Chaos we seemed to have an 'us vs. the universe' mentality. As I mentioned earlier we had 'secret' email lists that people with access to playing groups of Chaos could join.

 

It was also a golden era for us from a fluff standpoint and a codex standpoint. We had players that were chaos simply to powergame, or explore the amazing options of the codex.

 

If you are new to Chaos I would say the 'active' Chaos player is a fraction of what he used to be. (I can name no less than 10 off the top of my head locally that gave up on it Gav-dex era). So there's that....

 

We were fairly tight knit, for an eclectic group of Imperium reject/defects!!!

 

Meanwhile I remember even locally there were imperium players disagreeing on what to do. Multiple, focused Chaos attacks seemed to set them reeling. I recall a few focused attacks causing loyalists to divide their efforts between defending, and pushing back Chaos. They had a lot of people pulling their efforts in different directions.

 

I can say this happened locally at our Mega Battles which were recorded within the event offically for bonus points. Chaos never lost. I got to 'general' two of those battles for Chaos and we were ALWAYS far better organized.

[A D-B]

I love what you guys have reflected on here. I've re-read several posts and many have refreshed my own memories of the event. Some areas I totally forgot about.

 

I gotta say though comparing what we did to a 'game of X wing' changing the lore of Star Wars feels almost... insulting, and greatly underestimating the monumental effort that happened on a planet wide scale (for people thoroughly engaged in this hobby).

 

 

It's not remotely insulting (I was one of the people playing it, incidentally), and it's directly appropriate. However much work went into it is irrelevant beyond making an emotive strawman - 40K has always been about leaving vast swathes of blank for the players to fill in their own stories, and that was a very, very rare exception that GW hasn't done again.

 

I'm all for saying it was a great time (something I said several times) but that's about as accurate a comparison as we're likely to get. And there'd be just as many decent arguments for a global X-Wing campaign not getting to decide future Star Wars lore, either. How would many Star Wars fans feel if a campaign 15 years ago between a few thousand kids on their summer holidays literally decided the defining cataclysmic event in Star Wars lore?

 

That's not insulting. That's what happened. Anyone who was there knows that's what happened. And as grand as it is to stare back through rose-tinted glasses and lament how everything sucks now (a fact that, sadly, the Chaos forum is becoming known for), I'm perfectly fine with the lore pausing at two minutes to midnight.

[Prot]

 

I love what you guys have reflected on here. I've re-read several posts and many have refreshed my own memories of the event. Some areas I totally forgot about.

 

I gotta say though comparing what we did to a 'game of X wing' changing the lore of Star Wars feels almost... insulting, and greatly underestimating the monumental effort that happened on a planet wide scale (for people thoroughly engaged in this hobby).

 

 

It's not remotely insulting (I was one of the people playing it, incidentally), and it's directly appropriate. However much work went into it is irrelevant beyond making an emotive strawman - 40K has always been about leaving vast swathes of blank for the players to fill in their own stories, and that was a very, very rare exception that GW hasn't done again.

 

 

- I don't think writing a blurb, a novel, a short story, a note in the time line would have removed a 'blank for players to fill in their own stories'.

 

- How much work went into it. How much participation, and the breadth of the participation is relevant.

 

I'm all for saying it was a great time (something I said several times) but that's about as accurate a comparison as we're likely to get. And there'd be just as many decent arguments for a global X-Wing campaign not getting to decide future Star Wars lore, either. How would many Star Wars fans feel if a campaign 15 years ago between a few thousand kids on their summer holidays literally decided the defining cataclysmic event in Star Wars lore?

 

 

- Who wants to decide the future of 40K? Who asked for that? This was a good opportunity for fiction, maybe some sales, a couple of novels perhaps? All missed by GW (post event). Which really doesn't bother me but would have been some great cool factor for us to reflect on. It would have been a VERY cool footnote in 40K lore.

- If Star Wars revolved around a game (which it didn't), and they had an X-wing event resulting in a worldwide campaign to blow up a.... 'third death star'? Why not? It's fiction... I'm sure they'll build another death star. I don't see anything wrong with this idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's not insulting. That's what happened. Anyone who was there knows that's what happened. And as grand as it is to stare back through rose-tinted glasses and lament how everything sucks now (a fact that, sadly, the Chaos forum is becoming known for), I'm perfectly fine with the lore pausing at two minutes to midnight.

 

 

I'm not going to comment on the state of the Chaos forums, but this definitely steps outside the scope of the conversation. Excuse me while I put my rose-tinted glasses back on.

[Sception]

Rules: I enjoyed the game most from 3.5 to 5e as well, and feel with 7th that we're on the verge of needing a GM to even play, which is just not what I enjoy in a minis game.  It takes too long, it's too fidgety.  Just imo.

 

Models: the models are getting better all the time, although sometimes it's two steps forward, one step back (looking at you, finecast sorcerer model that looks like it should have been released with the 4e or even 3.5 chaos release, and you plastic daemon prince who is nowhere near as awesome as the old metal one)

 

Fluff: I don't know.  I like some stuff, but other bits were were better off not being known (I like the heresy books and all, but really feel this is stuff that was better when it was shrouded in myth and legend).  And while I love, for instance, what the black Legion supplement did for some of the earlier Black Crusades, taking them from "attempts by shredder to get those turtles which were doomed to failure because if they succeeded the show would end" and turning them into targeted missions with discrete, achievable goals, I am more than a little displeased that the 13th crusade has made the exact opposite transformation, going from 'attempt by abaddon to take Cadia and open the eye', which could have succeeded without destroying the setting (even the Cadians would have gone from 'anti-chaos guardsman defending this one planet' to 'anti-chaos fleetbound guardsmen fighting to one day retake their home' - that's not the death of a faction, that's character development; and even that would have only occurred with a complete chaos victory, not the partial victory they actually got) to, you guessed it, 'attempt by shredder to get those turtles which is doomed to failure because if it succeeded the show would end'.

 

 

I don't know.  Regardless, for me the EoT campaign was the funnest time in this hobby.  The setting felt alive, games felt like they mattered, and the rules felt tight enough that the outcome of games could be allowed to matter.

 

 

 

EDIT:  Otherwise, you know what's the worst culprit for removing blanks players could fill in?  The horus heresy novels & FW campaign books.

 

Also, 40k is a game.  It's lore is lore for said game.  40k is not a liscened game for an already existing narrative property.  Allowing a global campaign to modify the 40k lore is a completely different thing from allowing the same thing in Star Wars.  Star Wars was movies first.  40k was a game first.  Allowing actual games of 40k to influence that lore is more akin to allowing new Star Wars movies to influence the Star Wars lore.

 

Doing so may be good or bad for that lore (I'm not arguing in favor of the prequels or the future sequels here), but certainly isn't inherently invalid or foolish as you're making out.

 

 

Further, we live in a world where interactivity in media, even narrative media, is becoming both more prevalent and more important, where fandoms grow and fan participation matters and can even produce content far superior to the source.  And while I love ADB's books in general, I have to say I've read several official bits of 40k lore that I would and have dumped in the garbage, things I would take almost any bit of half-way coherent fanfiction over (Pandorax novel, I'm looking at you).  And, again, this is lore for a game, not an overall narrative with a set beginning middle and end to be protected from errant changes in direction that might arise from audience participation.

 

But whatever.  I have strong feelings about interactive narrative myself, and I fully admit to my own preferences in such things coloring my opinion here.

[Xin Ceithan]

I took my Thousand Sons into the Webway ( because everybody else was basically playing Eldar and Guard in our local gaming group ). And I had a painted Battlefleet to support them. And it was fun .

 

But, while I wish a few nuggets from that time could have found a way into lore and rule book, I guess I am with ADB here.

Especially when half my victories were won over my teenage little brother. That is not soooo epic in retrospective ;)

[Prot]

Rules: I enjoyed the game most from 3.5 to 5e as well, and feel with 7th that we're on the verge of needing a GM to even play, which is just not what I enjoy in a minis game.  It takes too long, it's too fidgety.  Just imo.

 

Models: the models are getting better all the time, although sometimes it's two steps forward, one step back (looking at you, finecast sorcerer model that looks like it should have been released with the 4e or even 3.5 chaos release, and you plastic daemon prince who is nowhere near as awesome as the old metal one)

 

I don't know.  Regardless, for me the EoT campaign was the funnest time in this hobby.  The setting felt alive, games felt like they mattered, and the rules felt tight enough that the outcome of games could be allowed to matter.

 

 

 

EDIT:  Otherwise, you know what's the worst culprit for removing blanks players could fill in?  The horus heresy novels & FW campaign books.

 

But whatever.  I have strong feelings about interactive narrative myself, and I fully admit to my own preferences in such things coloring my opinion here.

 

It's funny I was thinking about the Rules thing myself. I actually really like 7th edition, but it does feel a lot... larger now, and less tight as you put it. I really enjoy the tactical objectives but noticed our games are running longer now than I think they ever have (taking into account we are learning a new edition.)

 

The models are definitely better! But bigger too! I always have to remodel the old characters and put them on higher bases. :)

 

I hate to admit it, but I think EoT was my favorite time in the hobby too. But sometimes I wonder if it's because Chaos was at its height, or that the game has shifted to such a shooty design?  The game 'felt' more colourful... but the stuff I liked in that era was the Chapter Approved Index Astartes articles, lost and the damned, 13th Company Wolves, and stuff like that.... they don't seem to do it as much anymore. Not sure why?

 

That being said I still love Chaos, I think a new Campaign (never gonna happen) would be just as powerful today as it was back then. I really believe that.

[Sception]

While I like some of the bigger models, they and the longer game times are a problem for me.  I don't play in my own house, against other family members, I have to go to a friends house or a store to play, and all these huge, awesome, but awkward models are difficult to get from place to place, and the longer games mean that instead of getting a couple games in in an afternoon, I'm often stuck getting to about turn four of a single game before having to pack it in with the game unfinished.

[Yogi]

Damn man what year was EOT campaign? I can't remember. 

 

I do remember having a tau army and attempting to assist pushing the sept borders, I think. EOT was really cool though. 

[Akylas]

I'm a long time Star Wars fan, much more than 40k until the last few years. 15 years ago I could not tell you what a "Warhammer 40k" was. If a large scale campaign of a very popular Star Wars game affected the setting at the "present" of the Expanded Universe, I would not be offended. Then again, perhaps it's because cataclysmic events and the odd clone of the Emperor are fairly common in SW canon.

I can certainly understand the excitement of taking part in such a huge event, organizing with compatriots, watching as things slowly come together and seeing things turn in your faction's favor. At the end you have a stalemate that can lead to some interesting stories and gives the setting an illusion of advancement without drastically changing the setting. I mean, somehow Chaos armadas manage large invasions of places like Ultramar or bring ruin on the White Consuls without Cadia being in ruins. With the route out of the Eye wide open, maybe those Chaos armadas leaving would be bigger, and the Imperium would be trying to stick their finger in the dam. However, in the end at most you'd have gone from 2 minutes to midnight to a 1 minute 59 seconds or so. The Imperium would still be a brutal regime, ruling over a million worlds but constantly on the edge of collapse, the Eldar would continue to be enigmatic, the Orks would continue to be awesome. Life and fluff would continue, and new models continue to be sold. Maybe a few cool stories would come out of it.

Instead of telling those cool stories GW has rolled everything back. I like 40k at it is now and as it's been since my joining in the "long ago" years of late 5th edition. I feel like there's a lot of excellent background now in the form of books that continues to get better and better and, odd miss aside, I like the models. But I can still understand the gripe some people have with this event. If I had been a part of the buildup and excitement of the campaign and having a chance to have a small impact on the setting for my faction, only to have it disappear I'd be upset. There may be some hyperbole and rose tinted glasses but it does look like it was a very cool event, the results of which to me seem to have not been handled well.

[Lay]

Damn man what year was EOT campaign? I can't remember.

2003. So it's been over ten years millennia now. They say time flows different on the Internet though, and I can still remember it like it was yesterday...

[A D-B]

 

 

Also, 40k is a game.  It's lore is lore for said game.  40k is not a liscened game for an already existing narrative property.  Allowing a global campaign to modify the 40k lore is a completely different thing from allowing the same thing in Star Wars.  Star Wars was movies first.  40k was a game first.  Allowing actual games of 40k to influence that lore is more akin to allowing new Star Wars movies to influence the Star Wars lore.

 

Doing so may be good or bad for that lore (I'm not arguing in favor of the prequels or the future sequels here), but certainly isn't inherently invalid or foolish as you're making out.

 

Careful. I'm not saying it's foolish. I'm saying there are many reasons it's not been done again, and that it was an exception in itself, which is why the fact 40K evolved from a game rather than movies is itself irrelevant. It was a new and unprecedented direction that was tried and discarded. It could have evolved from a particularly exciting form of skydiving, but what's relevant is that it wasn't something commonly done. It was a new way of playing the game. It was, in fact, a whole new aspect to the game. And as awesome as it was, I think it had an unpleasant effect on the lore.

 

You can totally say X, Y, and Z has also had unpleasant effects. Plenty of things have, to plenty of people's ways of thinking. Bear in mind I'm limited in what I can say because of my position. If I don't like something, I usually don't mention it. That doesn't mean I like everything. But similarly I'm not so bound to seeing the past as a glorious golden age where everything was perfect just because it happened way back when. Just like music wasn't really better in whatever decade we each happened to be teenagers. 

 

(That said, as much as I like 7th - which is a great deal - 2nd Edition is still my fave edition so far. 7th feels a lot like 1st and 2nd, especially compared to 5th and 6th, but still.)

 

It was a great, fun campaign. Seeing as it was one of the main inspiring moments in something I dedicated my career to, I think it's fair to say I've got the nostalgia bug as hard as anyone else. I'm glad, however, that its effects aren't stretching out forever, especially given the effect it's had on people's perceptions of Chaos. Honestly, as much as it was a great summer, I'm glad we're not beholden to a campaign over ten years and four editions ago as binding canon, and I prefer the timeline dialled back to the build-up to the prophesied End of Days. And if, in the future, they dial it forward to a post-Cadia dealio, I'll find stuff I like in that, too. But I won't prefer it, that's all.

 

Do you honestly see zero drawbacks for how that campaign ended, what it did to Chaos lore, and the reasons it's not something that everyone is keen to repeat? Saying "well... other stuff has sucked too, since then" isn't a defence. Two wrongs don't make a right. In this case, they don't even make it even.

 

I was there. I loved it to pieces. I can see a few bad aspects to it, too. Shades of grey.

[A D-B]

The more I think about this thread, the more painfully nostalgic I get about it. I'm think I'm starting to hate Prot for reminding me about how much fun this really was. 

[HJL]

This just made me think of the Medusa V campaign, Man i wish GW would do another one of those

my nerd-gauge just hit 10... I got a like from ADB!!!

[Xenith]

Do you honestly see zero drawbacks for how that campaign ended, what it did to Chaos lore, and the reasons it's not something that everyone is keen to repeat? Saying "well... other stuff has sucked too, since then" isn't a defence. Two wrongs don't make a right. In this case, they don't even make it even.

This is one of the few times where I have to disagree with you:

 

Chaos advances from the eye but becomes embroiled in Cadia, now the front of an eternal meat grinder of war

 

The imperium is tested in the fires of apocalyptic battle and emerge with renewed faith, they open up their archaotech vaults and unleash weapons not seen in 10,000 years as it becomes life and death for them.

 

With they eyes of the gods focused on Cadia, the Eldar are better able to sneak into the eye and reclaim treasures from the crone worlds.

 

With the Imperium diverted, the tau can expand at a prodigeous rate (the only part that hasnt been retconned?)

 

The Tyranids ravage the galactic east. Whoever wins between Chaos and the imperium will have them to deal with afterwards.

 

To be honest, I can't see how re-setting the clock makes the background better. GW want you to forge a narrative? The endless war on Cadia is the perfect setting for any game.

 

Imagine new books: Warzone: Cadia; Warzone: Belial IV.

 

Having a current massive war on Cadia, with the enemy at the Imperium's throat is much cooler than having them constantly in a state of preparation.

 

I guess the trouble with it is figuring the relevance in the forces to the galactic east. But working out things like why those necrons are fighting the tyranids has always been part of the hobby.