Remembering the 13th Crusade: The End of Time

[incinerator950]

Let me tell you about the time I took out a B-wing with a TIE Bomber later.

 

I do hope they have a global campaign again.

[A D-B]

 

Do you honestly see zero drawbacks for how that campaign ended, what it did to Chaos lore, and the reasons it's not something that everyone is keen to repeat? Saying "well... other stuff has sucked too, since then" isn't a defence. Two wrongs don't make a right. In this case, they don't even make it even.

This is one of the few times where I have to disagree with you:

 

Chaos advances from the eye but becomes embroiled in Cadia, now the front of an eternal meat grinder of war

 

The imperium is tested in the fires of apocalyptic battle and emerge with renewed faith, they open up their archaotech vaults and unleash weapons not seen in 10,000 years as it becomes life and death for them.

 

With they eyes of the gods focused on Cadia, the Eldar are better able to sneak into the eye and reclaim treasures from the crone worlds.

 

With the Imperium diverted, the tau can expand at a prodigeous rate (the only part that hasnt been retconned?)

 

The Tyranids ravage the galactic east. Whoever wins between Chaos and the imperium will have them to deal with afterwards.

 

To be honest, I can't see how re-setting the clock makes the background better. GW want you to forge a narrative? The endless war on Cadia is the perfect setting for any game.

 

Imagine new books: Warzone: Cadia; Warzone: Belial IV.

 

Having a current massive war on Cadia, with the enemy at the Imperium's throat is much cooler than having them constantly in a state of preparation.

 

I guess the trouble with it is figuring the relevance in the forces to the galactic east. But working out things like why those necrons are fighting the tyranids has always been part of the hobby.

 

 

From what I've seen, though, I'm not sure that applies. The lore as it stands now shows the 13th Black Crusade either about to begin in some sources, and underway in others. The difference is that it's not over, which is what we had post-campaign. That's what I don't miss. I'm fine with it being underway. That'd be my preferred stance, in fact. That only adds to the two minutes to midnight feel of the setting.

[Prot]

This is stolen from a google search I did:

 

Examples of these are (From AUS WD287):
Note: same contents as were in UK and US WDs though issue number may vary.

Lost to the Imperium for all time
St Josmane's Hope (Penal World - Cadia System)- Destroyed (Reactor Overload)
Macharia (Hive World - Cadia System) - Destroyed by Abaddon's Planet Killer
Ulthor (Agri World - Agripina System) - Converted to a Deamon World of Nurgle by Typhus. Quote "Stronghold beyond the gate".

Anachy 0-19%: ("All Imperial Authority has Collapsed", "May still be Tiny outposts of Loyalists" AUS WD 287)
(Cadia):
Vigilatum (Naval Training World)

(Scarus/Skar-uz): Green Kroosade hit this sector
Imbrium
Lithe Eleven (Forge World? Or Ulant)
Mordax Prime/Moredakka (Forge World)
Ulant

(Agripinaa):
Albitern (Hive World)
Amistel (Hive World)
Lelithar
Malin's Reach
Yalor (Agri World)

Unreliable 20-39 %: ("Imperial Control has broken down in this warzone, being confined only to some areas or Die-hard supporters. The warzone still hasn't been utterly corrupted but it is on that path and Imperial forces should be very wary of operating in such a zone." p93 AUS WD 287)

(Cadia):
Cadian System (The Cadia system is at 29.4%) hence comments about Cadia System being mostly under Chaos control. Would need to be 40% or better to be "in the balance".
Kasr Sonnen (Fortress World)
Cadia (Frtress World and Primary objective)
Kasr Partox (Fortress World)
Solar Mariatus (Source of much war material - Likely an Adeptus Munititorium Storage depot).

(Scurus/Skar-uz):
Gudrun
Nysa Stromolo

(Agrippinaa):
Bar-El
Dentor (Agri-World)
Finreht
Tabor (Hive World)

In the Balance 40-59 %:
(Cadia):
Kasr Holn (Fortress World)

(Belis Corona):
Subiaco Diablo (Hive World)

 

 

 

 

But more specifically:

 

Note on the Planet Agrippinaa: "Though Agripinaa still stands, without the agri-worlds of Yalor, Ulthor and Dentor, it's populous may still starve to death, and without the vital materials provided by the Hive Worlds of Albitern Amistel, and Taybor, it's Mighty forges may fall silent." p99 AUS WD 287.

All other War zones are either, Dependable/Faithful, or saw gains made my Forces of order. Eg Sentinal where the Necrons (Who fought against Chaos in this War zone) are making more Pylons. Which could mean that there will be a Sentinal Gate in the future.

Finally this quote from Page 103 AUS WD 287 (During the evacuation of Imperial Troops over the Caducades Sea on Cadia).
"We lost..." Said Creed, his voice hollow and flat.

 

 

 

Specific to Agrippinaa:

 

I remember forging alliances using the Iron Warrior list and making narrative sub-campaigns as we rolled together through fire filled skies of the Agrippinaa. This was my way of locally drumming up excitement. So we planned something somewhat globally (Warp only knows how many people actually did this) and locally to push hard into Agrippinaa.

 

I remember thinking.... We (chaos) feel unbeatable.... what could be next? What could we take or simply destroy?

 

But by then the EoT Campaign was shutting down.... and all I felt like was:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OyH9_7pg-8

 

So I was left wanting.... but I had enjoyed hell-forged alliances and friendships locally and abroad. Some still stand today (one is actually our own Insane Psychopath and another is now a mod over at a different 40K forum).

 

Some fellow warlords sadly fell, either to other alliances or the abyss of real life.

 

Nothing compared to it since, and it definitely kindles the war spirit to walk down memory lane. If GW ever had it in them to fire it up again, I'd be there with blood gored axes in hand, frothing at the mouth, in a heartbeat.

[incinerator950]

I disagree with the Crusade being over, Abbadon merely dissapeared and his fleet might have taken a hit, but the war was still raging on. That may be my perspective, but it opens a new door nonetheless and provides just as much wealth and milking for new material. Regardless if it was a reversal I'm sure GW wouldn't have retconned it.

[A D-B]

I disagree with the Crusade being over, Abbadon merely dissapeared and his fleet might have taken a hit, but the war was still raging on. That may be my perspective, but it opens a new door nonetheless and provides just as much wealth and milking for new material. Regardless if it was a reversal I'm sure GW wouldn't have retconned it.

 

The sad truth of that campaign's ending is that the general consensus is that it failed; Abaddon was "left stranded" on Cadia, unable to be reinforced. I know a lot of the lore made heavy mention of the fact that it was a victory - that the Cadian Gate was broken open and Chaos had unprecedented access to the Imperium - but that's not what most people took away from it. 

[incinerator950]

You mean the Abbadon the Armless meme that circulated for a decade? That was hilarious, but someone of your talent could take that and give a whole new spin on from the ashes in story.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

I did get a few games during the 13th Black Crusade with the Iron Warriors but it was not as often as I'd like.  2005 was more when I started to get a lot more games, somthing like 15 games a week & never against the same oppent if you did not wish to, like wise there only one person who people refuse games against.
Just with college & way my time table work out & Games Workshop Glasgow move to the store there at today with the gaming room.

 

But the games I did have during 13th Black Crusade where fun.  One them was back in GW Glasgow when it was in hope street.  It was Thasound Sons, Daemon Hunter & Eldar.  Thasound Sons had the Forge World Warhound Titian, rememeber a young kid who came into the store knock the model off the table. 
I think the Eldar theme board ended up going around the UK as part of the battle with Ahriman & his quest to get to the Black Library, trying to find a =][= (not sure his name) who'd already been taken there by the Eldar.

 

Like wise I rememeber when I went to Warhammer World during the summer holidays there was specil mission & you report back to the staff memeber about how the game went.  I think I still have the mission brief kicking about from the one I was give, it was done as a sort of newsletter for the Imperial.

 

I did however take a fair bit in Medusa V.  I think one my friends got one of our games, his Blood Angels vs my Iron Warriors in one of the story over on the web site that dealt with Medusa V.

 

If another World Wide campaign was done again along the line of the 13th Black Crusade or 3rd war for Armageddon I would be up for that & be a brillaint way add even more theme/story to my army & as always add some great models & get some brillaint games arrange.

I still look back that the White Dwarfs with the world wide camaign for idea.

 

 

Damn man what year was EOT campaign? I can't remember.

2003. So it's been over ten years millennia now. They say time flows different on the Internet though, and I can still remember it like it was yesterday...

 

 

It is scary to think how long ago the 13th Black Crusade was or how long a lot of us has been in the hobby, I started back 1996, that been almost 18 year in the hobby.

 

IP

 

 

 

[Iron Skull Mask]

The campaign clearly sounds like it's been a really great thing, but I agree 187 % with A D-B that it's definitely good that it didn't change the fluff in a major way. I can understand that this feels counterintuitive for those involved and invested in this big thing back in the day, but the campaign setting a precedent in this direction would have killed 40k. If you ant to know why, just remember what happened to Battletech with its progressing background. With the big models pouring in, 40k gets the Battletech-on-a-larger-scale-feel anyway, but the big advantage 40k had & has (besides the models looking awesome), is the static background (which is in no means changed in anyway by any HH novel or FW publication, since the heresy took place like 10 millenia before the 40k setting; just saying) with it's huge spaces for narratives and narrative campaigns. We're bitching about the rules every now and then, but those can be completely changed with each new edition. But once the lore is progressing down a certain road, and this is recorded in official publications, there is no way getting the child out from under the truck again. Hope I'm making any sense. Had like 2 hours o' sleep the last 72 hours.

[incinerator950]

I understand you, I just don't agree with you, at all. I personally believe the static environment undermines the backround. Infinite possibilities isn't infinite in a definite setting hamstringed by sales choices and perspective favoritism. I'm not familiar with the BT timeline outside of the jihad.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The campaign clearly sounds like it's been a really great thing, but I agree 187 % with A D-B that it's definitely good that it didn't change the fluff in a major way. I can understand that this feels counterintuitive for those involved and invested in this big thing back in the day, but the campaign setting a precedent in this direction would have killed 40k. If you ant to know why, just remember what happened to Battletech with its progressing background. With the big models pouring in, 40k gets the Battletech-on-a-larger-scale-feel anyway, but the big advantage 40k had & has (besides the models looking awesome), is the static background (which is in no means changed in anyway by any HH novel or FW publication, since the heresy took place like 10 millenia before the 40k setting; just saying) with it's huge spaces for narratives and narrative campaigns. We're bitching about the rules every now and then, but those can be completely changed with each new edition. But once the lore is progressing down a certain road, and this is recorded in official publications, there is no way getting the child out from under the truck again. Hope I'm making any sense. Had like 2 hours o' sleep the last 72 hours.

But there was already a precedent of such things changing the setting, if anything the retconning of EoT broke with the precedent. From the small (Captain Tycho's fluff and eventual death) to the large (Ichar IV, 3rd Armageddon War), older events had already changed the fluff. But they decided that was bad, because reasons. Instead we just retcon after retcon, with a sprinkling of contradictions (such as who fought as Tarsis Ultra, C:SM says Cassius, C:Nids says Ventris, yet C:SM has Ideaus back in command of the Ultras 4th company).

 

For the record, what happened top battletech that was so bad (bear in mind I know nothing about battletech, other than it involves robots)?

[incinerator950]

They had a galxy wide jihad by a movement of crazies, they baically destroyed everything of value.

[zyl-]

In a galaxy universe where you can do basically anything on any number of worlds possibly not even discovered, there is in NO WAY a drying up of story when one part of one world is lost and a couple billion people die. GW could easily easily easily even let Terra fall and it wouldn't compromise the story or end it in any way. Would killing the emperor end 10,000 years of war? Absolutely not! If you honestly believe in your heart that the Emperor is the only thread holding 40k together by being barely alive on Terra, then it would leave us wondering why killing Saddam Houssein didn't end the Iraq war. The truth is that almost no amount of strongholds, worlds, devices, or leaders destroyed will be enough to end the war in the 40k universe so long as the writers in charge remain even barely creative.

 

As a matter of fact, I would welcome the changes because it allows differences between editions that matter to the codexes. No more Abaddon? Well we can just make a new neat model and give it cool rules and that's the new BL guy. We can always have new tech, new leaders, more worlds discovered.. the fact that it is a fantasy universe literally means that nothing can ever endanger the status quo we want. The idea of "two minutes to midnight" is just a view that puts all the stress on the single idea that the Emperor is the end all to mankind. It could very well be that his death just allows for a new [better] leader.

 

The rejection of the results of the campaign was just one more monument to the ineptitude of the imagination of GW.

[incinerator950]

It is what it is. We'll just adapt like we normally do. Just like my Wartorn, ceasingvto exist because of a retcon.

[Akylas]

It's been fascinating hearing everyone's recollections of the 13th Crusade. Sounds like it was an amazing experience. It makes me wish there was another worldwide campaign (even if more limited in fluff scope).

[Sception]

There have been since, but they were on a much smaller scale.  They didn't feel like they mattered as much, didn't have the fancy online campaign control tracking site, and certainly didn't have the same effort put into them on GWs front in terms of actually giving everyone something to do, updating weekly progress, etc.

 

Even if GW did put the extra work into one, I'm not sure it could work the same.  Hanging any kind of result on individual games puts pressure on to play more competitively, and I really just don't think the game today supports that kind of play.  If the outcome of a game matters, then you'll try to win, and my experience of 6e (and my expectation for 7e) is that if players are actually trying to win a game instead of just goofing around with models, that it all just breaks down and stops being fun.

 

But maybe that's just me being a decade older and more jaded than I was when EoT happened.

[daboarder]

The only campaign we had since eye of terror was the medusa campaign, and that was terribly run. it basically ammounted to a story with the thinnest excuse for everyone to be included and buy more miniatures, and then at the end of the day I think almost everyone got an out for achieving what they set out to do or something.

 

That and we never got to affect anything, We were told the world was doomed from day 1

 

 

Even if GW did put the extra work into one, I'm not sure it could work the same.  Hanging any kind of result on individual games puts pressure on to play more competitively, and I really just don't think the game today supports that kind of play.  If the outcome of a game matters, then you'll try to win, and my experience of 6e (and my expectation for 7e) is that if players are actually trying to win a game instead of just goofing around with models, that it all just breaks down and stops being fun.

 

Says more about the game than the players if you ask me

[Hellios]

My problem with the Medusa campaign was... It felt like it was trying to please everyone, but failed.

 

I think we can all accept that any Global campaign will be Imperials VS someone...I don't think there is a need to give every faction a purpose, allow 'minor factions' to support one side or another. My main army is Eldar... So I normally end up on whatever side Chaos isn't on... With the Orks being released... I wouldn't mind seeing a global campaign with the beast of Armageddon returning (I know this won't happen) to plague the Imperium.

[Nehekhare]

campaigns like the 13th crusade let the player actively participate in deciding the future of the hobby. They are so popular because they provide a feeling that your actions matter, while GWs buisness policy usually ensures the exact opposite.

[Chaeron]

In a galaxy universe where you can do basically anything on any number of worlds possibly not even discovered, there is in NO WAY a drying up of story when one part of one world is lost and a couple billion people die. GW could easily easily easily even let Terra fall and it wouldn't compromise the story or end it in any way. Would killing the emperor end 10,000 years of war? Absolutely not! If you honestly believe in your heart that the Emperor is the only thread holding 40k together by being barely alive on Terra, then it would leave us wondering why killing Saddam Houssein didn't end the Iraq war. The truth is that almost no amount of strongholds, worlds, devices, or leaders destroyed will be enough to end the war in the 40k universe so long as the writers in charge remain even barely creative.

 

As a matter of fact, I would welcome the changes because it allows differences between editions that matter to the codexes. No more Abaddon? Well we can just make a new neat model and give it cool rules and that's the new BL guy. We can always have new tech, new leaders, more worlds discovered.. the fact that it is a fantasy universe literally means that nothing can ever endanger the status quo we want. The idea of "two minutes to midnight" is just a view that puts all the stress on the single idea that the Emperor is the end all to mankind. It could very well be that his death just allows for a new [better] leader.

 

The rejection of the results of the campaign was just one more monument to the ineptitude of the imagination of GW.

 

Absolutely this. I would naturally prefer for those "big things" not to happen (Emperor especially) - but creating sub-set universes to fight over is perfect.

 

It's fiction, right?

[RapatoR]

Ok so if I get it correctly the lore was changed from: Cadia is taken, the crusade is over.

to: Cadia is taken, the crusade is underway, projected course Terra.

So where is hurt in that?

 

And about advancing the storyline: W40k is a setting. A fictional setting but it is the setting nonetheless.

Asking to advance the storyline is like asking to advance the storyline of Flames of War. You can't advance the storyline of W40k in the same way you can't advance the storyline of World War II. You can't replace Abaddon with another main antagonist in the same way you can't replace Hitler. However in contrast with WW2, there are huge empty spaces you can fill in with events of your own. So in addition to recreating "historical events" with known outcome like Armageddon wars and others, you can put your campains/battles/other lore events in those empty spaces and create outcome of your own. For me an option to set my battle or campain into 856.M41 or let's say M39.125, or to fill the empty spaces is much more to my taste than "being in the present".

[Chaeron]

Although, my knowledge of FoW is that it's set in the time period of an actual conflict, namely World War II, which cannot be changed. It's very different thinking of hypotheticals and what can be in the future - rather than as part of a distinct timeframe that cannot be altered.

 

It's the empty spaces that can, and should be filled to a certain extent - but there are limitless possibilities.

[RapatoR]

Although, my knowledge of FoW is that it's set in the time period of an actual conflict, namely World War II, which cannot be changed. It's very different thinking of hypotheticals and what can be in the future - rather than as part of a distinct timeframe that cannot be altered.

 

It's the empty spaces that can, and should be filled to a certain extent - but there are limitless possibilities.

 

Yes WW2 is real setting and W40k is fictional setting but is meant to be setting, not a story. It starts and ends at some point for WW2 it (invasion of Poland and capitulation of Germany) and it starts and ends from W40k. You can tell your story within this setting, try to recreate famous stories from it, have different outlooks and conflicting information on some parts of the setting. But wanting to go beyond the end of the setting is missing the point. What happens after the setting is entirely different story that is of little concern, to the setting, much like the Cold War was of little importance to the setting of WW2.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I see people saying that No Campaing ever, had any influence on the Fluff...

 

Wrong...

 

Armageddon 3..., read the Orks codexe, and also maybe the BA, SW, BT and IG codexes, and you would see that there is parts of the Fluff that have been changed after Arma3.

 

I dunno, if in a campaign book as Pandorax, they can go and say " the sector is still under war since the last 3 decades" and stuff, what was different with Cadia?

 

The thing is that Millions of people participated in it, and all they've got was the middle finger flipped at them.

 

Thats showing the respect GW has for its fanbase...

 

I'm not saying that Chaos should have bargged into the Throne room and kick the Emperor out of it, just that the fights gets fiercer and more desperate, like some others pointed out.

 

Now i see a lot of people saying that, its was a test, and they discarded it, wich is, sorry to say this, stupid, if you want to test things and piss on it if it doesn't suit your expectations, you do an inhouse campaign with all the studio staff and all the vendors Staffs from each GW around the world, i mean a t the time they could've had a nice number of tests and references, when you had 3-4 people running a GW shop.

 

But going global, with Subtitles in dwarfs or posters at GW shop with "Forge/Change your destiny" written all over it, and then just go" nah, lets retcon it to :cuss just for the giggles"...

 

I mean why retcon it into oblivion, when they could've retconned it simply like this" Cadia is under heavy pressure, more and more chaos Raids are coming out of the eye, all the neighbooring Systemes are on alert, but any tip of the balance could mean Victory or eternal Damnation".

 

Even though its not complete Victoryn it would still have a huge and positive impact on the poeple who participated in it, and not this dull feeling of getting yourself bend over and taken to brown town...

[Lay]

Ok so if I get it correctly the lore was changed from: Cadia is taken, the crusade is over.

to: Cadia is taken, the crusade is underway, projected course Terra.

So where is hurt in that?

We lost everything that happened during the crusade - which is actually a lot of stuff, if you look beyond Cadia.

 

The thing is, the 13th BC never really had an impact on the setting. (Depending on who you ask that's either a good thing or a bad thing - in fact, it's where a lot of the initial disappointment over the campaign stemmed from)

As a story however, it had some great, if overlooked fluff going for it.

[Vesper]

That book from Andy Hoare was cool.