scouts in 7th

[Ikken]

So I was reviewing a fluffy 1250  pt list I had made for a game in 6th

saga of hunter on a rune priest , outflanking with 15 blood claws

2 GH packs 1 in a DP

2 units of scouts one snipers and a HB , the other a melts squads OBEL

and 3 MM speaders .

 

it is a very fast list that will be ingaging the enamy T1 and assaulting T2

 

when i went to look at it I relised that the same list is viable in 7th maybe even more so now that scouts are scoring .

 

 

so here is the question , are scouts better than they were in 6th , and are they worth a 2nd look . A lot of people , myself included , dropped them from our lists in 6th because of the nerf they took in 6th . plus the metta chnage in 6th where there was less armor to worry  about made them less usefull .

 

now that 7th seems to be geared to bring back armor , and that they will be able to hold objectives , are scouts back on the table ?

 

 

 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Snipers were always somewhat viable (although I never had an elite slot spare once OBEL was nerfed by 6th). Otherwise Not really imo, without the ability to assault on the turn they come in, and only being able to take one special, they don't pack enough of a punch for a squad that will die in the enemy's turn. Maybe if you tool them up with plasma and WGPL with combi weapon, but then you might as well take suicide WG in a pod imo.

[Valerian]

So I was reviewing a fluffy 1250  pt list I had made for a game in 6th

saga of hunter on a rune priest , outflanking with 15 blood claws

2 GH packs 1 in a DP

2 units of scouts one snipers and a HB , the other a melts squads OBEL

and 3 MM speaders .

 

it is a very fast list that will be ingaging the enamy T1 and assaulting T2

 

when i went to look at it I relised that the same list is viable in 7th maybe even more so now that scouts are scoring .

 

 

so here is the question , are scouts better than they were in 6th , and are they worth a 2nd look . A lot of people , myself included , dropped them from our lists in 6th because of the nerf they took in 6th . plus the metta chnage in 6th where there was less armor to worry  about made them less usefull .

 

now that 7th seems to be geared to bring back armor , and that they will be able to hold objectives , are scouts back on the table ?

Rune Priests cannot take Saga of the Hunter - perhaps you meant to type Wolf Priest?

 

Although there is some value to a sacrificial anti-tank small Wolf Scout units (just a Melta gun and Plasma Pistol to shoot rear armor upon arrival), the fact that they're still precluded from assaulting from Reserves means they are much less Survivable, even in 7e, than they were back in 5e and earlier. Without being able to "hide" in an assault, and having only 4+ armor, I still don't see myself taking any now. This is unfortunate because I love Wolf Scouts, and I have two large packs to use, but just can't justify it.

 

V

[tjdudey]

 I use 4snipers with 1 ML in matches vs Monstrous creatures, as wounding on 4+ can be useful. They tend to hang around with the long fangs.

 

I tried infiltrating and outflanking but they just dont last long enough to be viable.

 

T

[Reede]

In my opinion they are much more viable in this edition than the last. The fact that they're scoring (at the very least) makes Sniper scouts incredibly good. All you have to do is drop them off at an isolated point and let them play their role as support. While Snipers in general took a hit this edition, they're still very good at target priority (given that sniper is one of the very few things with precision shots this edition). I've seen a friend eliminate a Chaos Marine bannerman that was giving the squad fearless, ended up failing a morale test for units lost, and watched them run off the board with plenty of men still there. I can't stress it enough, precision shots are invaluable. Not to mention that our scouts get that increased WS/BS which makes them a bit scarier.

 

Now we still suffer from a couple things that haven't been addressed (and hopefully will in the next codex, but until then...)

OBEL - To take advantage of this is to throw your squad to the meat grinder. In this edition, while it has it's uses, you go into it expecting them to die. In my opinion it's not worth it.

Lack of Camo Cloaks - This REALLY hurts scout viability in my opinion. Dropping them in ruins for a 3+ cover can (2+ on GtG) make them incredibly survivable and often provides needed diversion fire for your other units. I am hoping this is something that'll be addressed in our next codex.

Lack of Objective Secured - While this can certainly be a pain, it's not the end of the world. What kept me from taking Scouts in 6th (or even being slightly interested in doing so) was the lack of scoring ability. They were wholly delegating to a damage squad which, while they're not bad at, can be fulfilled elsewhere. While they may not be able to secure an objective, the fact that they can score it is a big bonus. With this it just comes down to positioning. Get them somewhere out of the way and let them do their work while giving you free points (especially in maelstrom missions).

 

With this edition I actually intend to build a few sniper squads as they now seem like a viable choice. Still you have to do it right. They're roll right now is quite clearly support / quick-capping. While we have the ability to tool them otherwise, I feel like this is the area they'll excel at.

 

My 2 cents on the matter.

[Squark]

The issue with sniper wolf scouts, from a purely competitive standpoint, is one of price. A wolf scout with a sniper rifle is 18 points. A codex scout with a sniper rifle is 12 points. Is +1 WS and BS worth 6 points (Since sniper rifles don't exactly work with behind enemy lines)? Not really, especially since you're giving up access to objective secured, and codex marines already have a number of other attractive units worth allying in (Thunderfire cannons, cheaper psykers who get telepathy*, Fliers). Plus, most chapter's tactics, or even stubborn, are better for sniper scouts than counter attack and acute senses*.

 

 

 

*But not divination unless they're Tigrius. The reference card in the psychic powers cards includes a discipline in the list if even one unit in the army, or one of its supplements, can take that discipline. Just because it says Codex marines and Chaos Space Marines have access to divination (They do, in Varro and a Black Legion relic, respectively), doesn't override the in codex/errata restrictions any more than it allowed spirit seers to take divination in the previous edition.

*The two big ones are probably Ultramarines (re-roll 1's to hit one turn, and re-roll snap fire rolls another, plus you get two great characters in Tigrius and Telion) and Salamanders (Master-crafted sniper rifle for the Sergeant), but Iron hands and Imperial Fists both offer some stuff as well (Imperial fists only for bolter scouts, but at 110 points, they're out-shooting grey hunters point for point).

[skeletoro]

Personally I am strongly considering building one large unit of wolf scouts to go OBEL, as well as one or two units or SM scouts in land speeder storms to give me access to cheap librarians and other space marine units (quite possibly white scars: 2 biker librarians to give swift claws buffs and hit & run, maybe 2 techmarines and 2 storm ravens to accompany 2 packs of blood claws and 2 space wolf contemptors (repairs for storm ravens and contemptors, hit and run for blood claws, and bolster defences for all those scout models).

[skeletoro]

Personally, the value I see in OBEL is that wolf scouts can support Bran Redmaw's OBEL grey hunter pack. Ten extra bolters alongside a pair of gunslingers and a plasma gun makes a big difference in terms of dominating a patch of your enemy's deployment zone.

 

I really really wish I could deploy wolf scouts in land speeder storms...

[DanPesci]

aye im with skeletobro in that if you are using redmaw, and an outlflanking wolf priest, they can be useful...if you get things to arrive at the same time. The risk you run is that stuff arrives piecemeal and can be dealt with one at a time, however having a grey hunter unit and wolf scout unit appear on your table edge, the same turn another gry hunter unit appears outflanking...thats not nice :D

 

I really like my BS4 snipers too, the fact they are now scoring is a nice bonus, but i would like to see them maybe drop a point in the next codex if we cant assault from reserves. camo cloaks would be nice but i doubt we'll get them.

[Baulder]

Quick question Dan (off the top of your head), can you remember if it is OK for Redmaw to join the unit of GH that arrive OBEL? Or is he just stuck with outflanking as normal?

[Reede]

Quick question Dan (off the top of your head), can you remember if it is OK for Redmaw to join the unit of GH that arrive OBEL? Or is he just stuck with outflanking as normal?

 

I believe the rules state specifically for him that he can only join a squad of Fenrisian Wolves and only outflank. (though the second point i'm not 100% on)

[skeletoro]

It doesn't say *only* fenrisian wolves. He has outflank, but not OBEL. So he can outflank with any unit (but they won't be able to use OBEL with him attached)

[Baulder]

 

Quick question Dan (off the top of your head), can you remember if it is OK for Redmaw to join the unit of GH that arrive OBEL? Or is he just stuck with outflanking as normal?

 

 

I believe the rules state specifically for him that he can only join a squad of Fenrisian Wolves and only outflank. (though the second point i'm not 100% on)

There's another thread where this was covered, in short he can join units as a normal IC the fenrisian wolf thing is a relic from 5ed I think.

 

 

I think skeletoro is right though, he can't OBEL.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

Bran can not join scouts prior to deployment as he doesn't have the Infiltrate USR, and the Grey Hunter pack he can make OBEL just as if they are wolf scouts he still wouldn't be able to join because that Grey Hunter pack gains the Infiltrate rule. 

[skeletoro]

Correct, Sturm. He can outflank with the OBEL GHs though - I think. The rules say:

 

"An independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment"

 

It's quite unclear because I highly doubt GW intended to prevent him from outflanking with infiltrators that choose to outflank rather than infiltrate. BUT, I guess it could be argued that when ICs join reserves, it's during deployment. If so, then I guess RAW is that Bran cannot outflank with infiltrators, so cannot ever deploy with wolf scouts or OBEL grey hunter under any circumstances. I'd say by 'infiltrators' they mean units deployed using the infiltrate rules, but that's my opinion.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

Yeah, it seems FW made some sort of error writing up Bran. As much as I would like to have him obel it is just seems to be written very poorly and cobbled together. However, we apparently can now stick it to Dark Angel players and take Cypher obel with some wolf scouts...

[skeletoro]

there's a few things id like to see them do with Bran!

 

Give him and any unit he joins OBEL (plus one GH pack)

Change his axe to 2 handed, +2 strength, shred, unwieldy (i.e. make it count as an axe, not a sword, stats-wise)

Give him an appropriate warlord trait (master of ambush?)

Make his formation 40k legal rather than apoc only (would need toning down)!

[Baulder]

Correct, Sturm. He can outflank with the OBEL GHs though - I think. The rules say:

 

"An independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment"

 

It's quite unclear because I highly doubt GW intended to prevent him from outflanking with infiltrators that choose to outflank rather than infiltrate. BUT, I guess it could be argued that when ICs join reserves, it's during deployment. If so, then I guess RAW is that Bran cannot outflank with infiltrators, so cannot ever deploy with wolf scouts or OBEL grey hunter under any circumstances. I'd say by 'infiltrators' they mean units deployed using the infiltrate rules, but that's my opinion.

 

Outflanking Bran is not so much of an issue. He has saga of the hunter which gives him outflank and then confers it to the unit he joins. You can then just select a different unit to be the infiltrators. Pretty sure you're spot on about the OBEL unit since I'm sure the rules say the unit is treated the same as wolf scouts in this instance.

 

Anyway I think we're getting a little bit off topic we've discussed Bran in some detail a month or so back and I don't believe anything in the 7th (bar the Smash changes) have effected him.

 

Here are some of those posts:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287732-on-the-topic-of-redmaw/ 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269700-bran-redmaw/

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288919-who-in-the-name-of-the-emperor-is-bran-redmaw/

 

 

Still never tried scouts myself, they were pretty low on my purchase priority list due to the lack of scoring. Now that they've got this I think I'll give it a go but I'm still not sure how effective they can be. That said if you build your list to outflank then it gives you more units for target saturation. Also I highly recommend the strategic warlord trait that gives a +1 to reserves, at least then you have a better chance of them all turning up at the right time. 

[Sturm Moonwolf]

For playing outflank style and getting a reserves bonus I have been using an Imperial bunker and taking the comms relay upgrade instead of relying on a warlord trait. Besides, the bunker makes a perfect fit for my Long Fangs who generally always get shot the hell up quickly if in any kind of regular cover. 

[carnosaur93]

it generally seems like sniper scouts for SW are not exactly worth their points cost for what you get... 18 points a piece for +1 BS sniper scouts, with no access to cloaks and the like, by comparison, a longfang with a heavy bolter is 20 points (25points for a missile launcher, which is argurably worth it), if you just want something to sit on an objective and pew pew at stuff for support from decent range, though you have to pay the 15 points tax for the splitfire battle leader, but that might to a point be worth it really. furthermore, these guys give you access to a razorback.

 

My point is that it looks like the sniper scouts are just plain not worth it, really, even though they can now objective camp, other units will be able to do so now, too