Trying to create a decent Crimson Slaughter Core

[Prot]

I've tried a few Crimson Slaughter lists, but am struggling against the likes of:

 

IG (deathstrikes -blah-), Eldar, Tau, and even Nids (too many Monstrous Creatures).

 

I've flipped through playing some other armies but now with 7th and Malefic combined with Possessed, I'm trying to make this work, but I need a solid foundation to build around.

 

 

 

Core wise I'm thinking: Landraider with Possessed (MoK?), adding the Kranon gear, (Lord, Blade of Relent, Daemonheart, Prophet, Slaughter Horns). This puts him at 170 ish. (Plus MoK?)

 

I'm thinking of joining a Sorc to said unit, and giving him Malefic (give him voices instead of the Lord, OR just going with Divination which is still decent). He can improve the ++ save (malefic) and perhaps start flooding the field with some Daemons in his spare time (earlier if the Landraider goes down).

 

Chosen: I have TONS of them, and only a few possessed. I was going to go all out on Black Legion til I saw the codex. I may try to convert some Chosen to Possessed but I wanted to get feedback on this idea first, because Chosen look really cool and I'm not sure about Possessed as troops.

 

Adding in about 2 squads of 20 Cultists....

 

Is this a valid core unit? What would you back it up with?

 

We are currently playing a lot of Malestrom missions so having cultists that don't run behind an Aegis MIGHT be okay *but* with such a list I feel I need to be on the move and VERY aggressive or die standing in mid-field with my pants down.

 

Any thoughts?

[TheDevourer]

What Crimson Slaughter gives you is a mobile, tanky chaos lord (For our standards).

 

I feel the best thing that CS brings is the "Spawnstar". 5 MoN Chaos Spawn with added chaos lord with 2+ save 4++ fisticlaws and mark of nurgle to make him good at duelling. 

 

To make the spawn work you can then ally in belakor for his godly telepathy buffs or maybe add ml3 sorc on bike to another unit of spawn or bikers.

 

Seeing as you are playing one expensive melee star with support so far. The best way to go is to saturate targets ie purchase more fast moving units such as bikes, maulerfiends. I would also still advise on getting one heldrake. If you want to go the ally path allying in some hounds would work fairly well aswell. Would also give you access to cheap cast dice factories a la 11 horrors or cheap and tough objective campers a la nurglings. Add in minimum cultists and just go straight for the assaults and pressure as well as you can. 

 

I personally would play bela + the spawnstar + 4 maulerfiends if you want to stick to csm. 

[Smurfalypse]

The Devourer hit the nail on the head.

 

Nurgle Lord on bike armed to the teeth. I prefer All of their Artifacts on him other than the Prophet, the Blade is actually pretty decent and in one round of combat usually get you to +1str and AP2, the rest is gravy.

 

I use a Sorcerer (no mark) in the same unit, mostly for buffs and the Force Axe. He is super good at killing stuff cause the Lord can take any challenge.

 

x5 Nurgle Spawn, nuff said.

 

 

Throw them all into one unit and go to town man.

[TheDevourer]

The blade is indeed nasty. Unless you feel that you won't be able to stack it up in your meta or you don't think you will be able to manouver well enough to get him into units that will stack his blade. The fisticlaw set up would be more reliable and not leave you stuck with a power sword if you make a misplay ;)

[Prot]

I see what you're saying.... but, I'm trying hard not to do allies.

 

I confess that in this codex I have not played Spawns. I never bought any and I have proxied them probably...a year ago? It's been a while since I used them, but my hope was to distract with them.

 

Maybe part of my problem is I'm going for 'cool factor' on the models. So for instance I love the Lord model from the box set. I guess I have to drop that idea entirely if I want 'success'?

 

Neither of you mentioned Possessed. Has anyone tried the Sorc/Malefic/Possessed/Lord combo?

 

No one likes the Landraider idea? I used to always run it with a Dirge Caster, but again I suppose you're going to just tell me bikes are better?  (Unfortunately I don't even own a biker Lord anymore.... I was going to use the old Doomrider bike but no idea on what model riding.)

 

Again with the Sorc: In 7th ed there has to be a way to make the Sorc work with CS?

 

Sorry for scattered thoughts... just fleshing out ideas.

 

++++Edit++++

 

Taking the ideas from above, while trying not to proxy too many things, this is a 'core' I've come up with:

 

Lord, bike, Blade of Relentless, daemon Heart, Slaughter horns, Bike, MoN. (175)

 

5 bikes, 2 plasma guns, MoN, Champ with P.Axe.

 

So those two obviously go together.

 

Secondary unit is:

 

Sorc, Prophet, Malefic

w/ 8 Possessed in a Landraider with Dirge, Dozer blade, XA.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

To support this at 1850 it leaves me enough room to sprinkle in some fast units:

 

-2 approx 20 man Cultists units

-BaleDrake

-2 x Maulerfiends (2 x lasher tendrils)

-4 Spawn MoN

- 3 Termiecide unit x2 combi meltas

 

That is almost 1850 on the nose.

[TheDevourer]

You could of course run a possessed bomb, but I believe that also relys on spamming cheap effective units from the daemon codex. You would have to ask smurf about that. I think he tested some possessed bombs. 

 

Erm a lord on foot just doesn't really work to be honest. Malefic in itself probably won't work well without spamming cast dice with daemons because of the sheer amount of successes you need to activate a summoning. (6 dice per cast)

 

Chaos land raiders are still kind of meh at best. And aren't really worth their points and yes bikes are better. Although spawn are even better imo.

 

Sorc does of course work as a buffer wor the spawn unit in this case, maybe rolling on biomancy or telepathy or divination depending on the rest of the army set up.

 

But the lord is mandatory, I feel.

 

Edit: I would run something like this if you want to play some possessed.

 

Hauptkontingent: Chaos Space Marines

***************  1 HQ  ***************  

 

Chaos lord

- MoN

+ - 1 x Lightning claw

   - 1 x Powerfist

   - The Slaughterers Horns

   - Daemonheart

+ - Nurgle Nades

   - 4++

   - Chaosbike

 - - - > 215 pts

 

 

***************  4 troops***************  

 

5 Possessed

 - - - > 130 pts

 

5 Possessed

 - - - > 130 pts

 

10 Cultists

 - - - > 50 pts

 

10 Cultists

 - - - > 50 pts

 

 

***************  3 Fast ***************  

 

5 Chaosspawn

- MoN

 - - - > 180 pts

 

5 Chaosspawn

- MoN

 - - - > 180 pts

 

Baledrake

 - - - > 170 pts

 

 

***************  3 Heavy***************  

 

Maulerfiend

- 2 Tents

 - - - > 135 pts

 

Maulerfiend

 - - - > 125 pts

 

Maulerfiend

 - - - > 125 pts

 

Allied Contingent: Chaos Space Marines

***************  1 HQ  ***************  

 

Sorceror

- Ml 3

+ - Spell familiar

+ - 4++

   - Chaosbike

 - - - > 170 pts

 

 

***************  1 Troop ***************  

 

10 Cultists

 - - - > 50 pts

 

 

***************  1 Heavy ***************  

 

Maulerfiend

 - - - > 125 pts

 

 

Total Points: 1835

 

--> Still has some points to play with. Probably for a few more cultists

[Urauloth]

Kranon is a nice mini, I agree, but a lord on foot in power armour is probably the least useful kind of lord you could possibly field, and unfortunately our land raider is a barely functional trasheap for its points* so I tend to think of it as a bad delivery solution. It's not unworkable, though, if you're prepared to build your army around it.

 

Sorcerers are fantastic with or without CS upgrades imo. Again, I'd look at spawn as a great potential synergy unit for your sorcerer because biomancy can make them hit like a freight train, but I'm an advocate of spawn in general. A divination sorc is certainly a potent tool, but you need a plan for him. If you plan to go melee-heavy, a standard biomancy sorc might be more useful (then again, if you plan on using a bunch of chosen, prescience is great for them). As for the possessed sorc with daemonology... he's a nice trick, but he's going to be stuck in a possessed unit, wasting either their melee potential or his summoning powers depending on what the unit's doing, surely?

[Prot]

Have you done these character conversions?

 

I'm trying to figure out if this is even viable for me. (I'm sort of in the stage of my gaming where army appearance is big for me.) Just curious if you've done it yourself.

 

- Possessed on foot... I wonder if that could work considering the new rules? If the Sorc had Daemon, he could simply run along with them summoning. But I see what you're saying about the summoning dice. In my original 7th ed test list I had a flying Psyker Daemon Prince.

 

- Landraider. I have used 1-2 landraider lists in my Dark Angels over the past few months. The results have been very interesting. Mixed, but some times if someone isn't expecting AV14 it can really do something.

[Slave to Darkness]

atm im running a unit of 20 possessed with a lord with all the shiny gear (inc that thingy that makes him a possessed) and a dark apsotle, and a unit of havocs with autocannons with a sorc (using the power that lets you re roll misses), a unit of 35 cultists and a few csm squads and vindicator support. i shield the possessed unit behind the cultists and run towards the enemy, not a subtle list but :cuss me its fun

[TheDevourer]

The possessed on foot apply pressure and bring a "resilient" troop choice. Personally I wouldn't run them and I would opt for daemons to get decent troop choices. But if i were to be running possessed I would run them in small squads and hope they can keep up with the spawn and maulerfiends and take on small or decimated units. 

 

No I haven't made any of the characters yet. At the moment I have no biker models nor do I have enough spawn, due to myself maining daemons for the entire last edition.

 

I have however playtested a lot of similar lists, however funding is on the short side as a uni student and I'm going to try to paint up the rest of my collection before I delve into more figures.

 

The thing with chaos raiders is:

1.) No potm

2.) Crappy weapons

3.) No bolter banners

3.) Bad synergy with other csm units

[Prot]

atm im running a unit of 20 possessed with a lord with all the shiny gear (inc that thingy that makes him a possessed) and a dark apsotle, and a unit of havocs with autocannons with a sorc (using the power that lets you re roll misses), a unit of 35 cultists and a few csm squads and vindicator support. i shield the possessed unit behind the cultists and run towards the enemy, not a subtle list but me its fun

Okay, this kind of reminds me of a post in the World Eaters forum where someone is using the Black Legion codex to take Chosen Troops. Very similar concept, except here we are talking about something potentially more resilient AND faster on foot with Possessed.

I do fear with the crud I face on a weekly basis, it would be -massively- risky for me to try this. But I like the spirit of the list.

[incinerator950]

I had considered small possessed squads myself. The problem is finding synergy as I don't want Demon allies. Also still waiting... to see if my models turned up.

 

I assume Possessed need larger numbers to make impact.

[TheDevourer]

Small units increase saturation of fast units. But no they won't make much of an impact and you have to be careful what you throw them into.

[Kilofix]

What issues are you having with Eldar?

 

 

IMHO, with Tau and Tyranids you need two things:

 

1. Plasma to kill MCs - lots of Plasma. Because its AP2 to get around some of their 2+ saves and with Rapid Fire, there's volume to get around their ++. Don't use Missiles or AC because they are not AP2

 

2. Flamers to kill swarms and Drones. Because it is AOE and it ignores cover that the little guys tend to rely on

 

Personally, I'd use a squad of Draznicht - with 10 Chosen - 5 of which with Plasma. Because with Draznicht, you get Preferred Enemy that allows you to reroll 1s. Thus avoiding Plasma self- death. Also Chosen with 2 Attacks base can stand their ground against CC with swarms.

 

Then either get Abbadon and a whole bunch more Chosen with Plasma and Flamer or Nurgle Chaos Lord and Plague Marines with Plasma and Flamer. Yes I realize that's expensive but it works against Tau and Tyranids.

 

I find that vehicles tend to get blown up quickly against Tau and Tyranids, but a Vindicator or tri-Las Pred can sometimes get a lucky hit.

 

 

Edit - the problem with Possessed and Spawn is that they cannot get past the 2+ Armor Save that Tau MCs (like Riptide) and Tyranid MCs (like Tyrannofex) have. Though Maulerfiends might work if you can get them into CC with the MCs

[Prot]

Ugh... I'm wondering if I should just go back to Black Legion?

 

The question seems to be: Are Possessed even worth it?

 

My ideal 'core' was to have a 'daemon' HQ running with Possessed troops.... a large squad. If this happened to be my Sorc for example, with him giving Biomancy (which sounds like a good idea). IF I ran the sorc with Malefic it appears he has to have perhaps a Daemon Prince Sorc or even a Termie Sorc with another 3 charges in hopes of getting off one Summoning a turn. Is this an accurate assessment? (I haven't played Malefic powers myself yet)

 

So if all the examples you guys are giving me don't use Possessed as part of the core, then I'm questioning using Crimson Slaughter since I thought that (and their ability to mark a sorc with Daemon) was the advantage they had!?

 

I've probably made about 4 lists but I can't get past the core value of the list without tearing it apart. It seems when I'm happy with the troop/assault element I feel like I'll get shot to crap.

 

If I go too shooty, well I'm back to my Iron Warriors...lol. Which I did play with great success in 6th, but I was trying to get away from that since I sold them and wanted to move on.

 

Does Black Legion do what I'm trying to do better than Crimson Slaughter? I mean, again, if I take possessed out of the mix, and don't use a Malefic/Daemon sorc, why would I bother with CS? 

 

++++++

 

As an aside I do have the models to do Black Legion easily as it was my original intent when I sold my Iron Warriors, and I went out and bought about 30 Chosen! But I have 'chosen' to box them up and then went and bought the CS supplement.

[incinerator950]

CS advantage was the balestar and demonheart and, debatably, the botr. Fear was a bonus, Possessed a gimmick. With everyone scoring, troops counting as is only so far useful as super scoring goes.

[RolandTHTG]

I'm planning on trying out a big blob of Possessed and a Malfic prophet sorcerer this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

[incinerator950]

Please do.

[Dallas Drake]

I'm running Possessed using CS and having fun doing it, I've also won all 4 games I've played (Nids, SMx2, IG).

 

The way I've been doing it is by running a large unit of 15 Khorne Possessed led by the Prophet Sorcerer taking Telepathy and backed up with either a Telepathy Sorcerer or Belakor. Basically, Invisibility ensures they get there relatively unscathed & frustrates the hell out of your opponent. When a few 6s hit your 3+ save is good and rolling up Beasts or the 3++ is gravy incase you get hit by plasma etc. Personally I'm not mad on getting Shrouded (rather have one of the other two) but whatever, it can be useful. Also, WS1 in combat properly hurts your opponent in melee, you hit with 4xS6 (possibly Rending) attacks per model, trust me, they shred units. But they also (sometimes) tend to leave 10 man tac squads/large broods of Gaunts etc. in tact enough to kill them off in your opponents turn. Don't bother running this unit unless you are pretty sure you can get Invisibility on them, aside from rolling up Beasts 1/3 you are footslogging it and at the end of the day you are just really expensive MEQ stats, T4 with a 3+ will die, fast... Also, Sorcerers do not want to be in transports, so this is the way you do it. Either that or bikes. Do not do Possessed in a LR (and if you do don't do CS Possessed in a LR, C:CSM are more killy but I'd rather take a beefed up Sorcerer & 4 more Possessed than take a crappy LR).

 

Can bikes or Terminators do what blob Possessed do but better? Yes, but they're not troop options for us. (EDIT: as pointed out by someone on another forum - Plague Marines are probably a better choice for this, but we want Possessed right!?). Possessed as elites is not viable, but as troops they're pretty good. Most regular stuff dies to them on the charge (including TH/SS Terminators) and they are pretty tough with their 5+ or 1/3 of 3++. Buff them to your hearts content, basically only uber MCs and a DC charge are stopping them.

 

I then back that 650 point deathstar up with loads of Cultists (maybe a Helcult) and the usual assortment of Heldrakes/Oblits/Spawn etc. From next weekend I'm dropping my L3 Prophet Sorcerer to a L1 or 2 Malefic & adding in some bikes - I still hope to get Invisability on my L3 (who will be on a bike) or I auto get it obviously if I take Belakor. Malefic on the Prophet is the most sensible use of points, he's pushing up the table with the Possessed but he isn't hard enough (and never will be despite how many points you throw on him) to get tasty (Sorcerers only having 2W & mediocre stats/offensive options just kills their melee potential), since he's up the board the best thing for him to do is summon Daemons to help the Possessed out and contest objectives.

 

If you want a beatstick then take a tooled up Lord on a bike like TheDevourer says. Having said that, I LOVE Sorcerers, I'd never take a Lord because the psychic phase is just so much fun & Chaos aren't half bad at it!

 

Bottom line, if you like Possessed use them. You won't win tournaments (who cares!?) or set the mini wargaming world on fire, but they can be good and they are definitely great fun. If you enjoy yourself and get to play the units you love & nerd over the fluff then it's win win mate.

 

Good luck!

 

Dallas

 

EDIT: I nearly forgot, never leave home without a Spell Familiar!

[daboarder]

Personally I think an unmarked ML3 Chaos sorcerer with prophet (rolling on maelific) and then a combo of possesed, obliterators and daemon engines is the way to go with crimson slaughter. The sorc nabs 4 powers off the maelific chart (so good chance of getting cursed earth) and can really boost the daemon engines and daemons in our book.

[Trevak Dal]

You have probably been playing much longer than I have Prot.  To Win with assault, you need bodies.  Lots of (relatively) cheap, tough bodies.

 

If you go with Possessed...you're paying a lot of points for what you get-troops or no.  Now, possessed make excellent bodyguards for Sorcerers...but if you want to build an assault army, you need Lots of Space Marines to be WAAAAAAGHing forward.  10 man units of Khorne Beserkers (very few upgrades if any) in barebones rhinos going as far forward as possible, with lots of "oh :cuss" stuff up in their grill (Maulerfiend x 2) and spawn to tarpit Wraith Lords/Knights/avatars while you bully weaker stuff with your assault troops.

 

That said I don't like the looks of 2 HQs (one which is the Warlord) and 200+ points of possessed, in a 200+ points landraider.  That's going to be a FIRE MAGNET and is a lot of points in one unit of not too many guys.

 

 

ALSO, since you're taking two HQs and have 4 Troops...perhaps consider running another Detachment if there was something you wanted that you didn't have enough slots for (though from your updated list, it seems like you got all you want with the standard FOC/Combined Force thing)

[incinerator950]

I'd rather use MoK chosen at that point.

[Prot]

Okay looking at this advice, I've come up with the following Crimson Core using Malefic:

 

(This is at 1850)

 

Sorc w/Prophet (160) (3 charges + Familar)  in a squad of...

15 x possessed w/MoK (435!) Using Malefic hopefully summoning/keeping the squad alive with a bonus invuln.

 

21 Cultsts (blob in front)

 

22 Cultists (blob in front)

 

4 x Chaos Spawn MoN (front blob moving fast)

 

Helldrake

 

2 x Maulerfiend with tendrils x 2

 

Deep strike element with extra Warp Charges:

 

4 Termies (combi meltas/plasma... I've always liked both) (Biomancy) Deep striking with:

Chaos Sorc Termie 3 charges/plasma/familiar

 

2 Oblits MoN

[Trevak Dal]

I'd rather use MoK chosen at that point.

Indeed, at least they get 2 attacks base. Thank's again Phil Kelly-stay awesome

[Dallas Drake]

Chosen change the list totally. You're going to use Black Legion & you're going to stock up on plasma.

 

In melee MoK Chosen aren't bad but Choswn are better shooty. Mainly because they aren't Fearless.

 

Chosen have no Fleet or opportunity to get Beasts or improve their move so unless you want to die footsloging up the board then they'll need dedicated transports, which is likely Rhinos further reducing their assault potential. They have no 5++ or opportunity to get 3++ or opportunity to benefit from Cursed Earth etc.

Not to mention, Possessed are Fearless.

 

Edit: I like your list Prot!

But Biomancy on a Sorcerer is probably better switched out for Telepathy to try & get Invisibility on the Possessed. Just play it & see how you like it.