b1soul Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Space Wolves are an very popular legion...I'm surprised there's no mention of a super-hardcore SW champion among the ranks of Sigismund, Abaddon, Raldoron, Azkaellon, Alajos, Corswain, Astelan, Jubal, Qin Xa, Sevatar, Lucius, Sharrowkyn, etc. (off the top of my head) There's Bjorn and though I'm sure he's above average in the Heresy Era, I don't think he's considered a great champion of his legion...yet. I believe he develops into mighty hero after the Heresy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Haha was going to say Bjorn is up their with the rest, its just he hasn't really had as much face time as the rest. To put it into perspective Bjorn only takes centre stage in Prospero Burns a handful of time's where as Khârn basically has about 1/3 of Betrayer dedicated to him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Haha was going to say Bjorn is up their with the rest, its just he hasn't really had as much face time as the rest. To put it into perspective Bjorn only takes centre stage in Prospero Burns a handful of time's where as Khârn basically has about 1/3 of Betrayer dedicated to him Oh yeah...can't forget Khârn. It's a bit weird that TSons and Prospero Burns don't set up any super-hardcore Space Wolves. Bjorn is definitely more than your average marine but he's clearly quite low on the Heresy Era SW legion hierarchy. I get the feeling there should be guys in his legion who'd kick his young a$$ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 That's right i do remember him being referred to as a "young pup" (paraphrasing) which means, you are correct. In the way Prospero Burns is written you dont really see much action from the higher up top dog space wolves, only from the point of view of the pack that Hawser is accompanying, where as Thousand Sons you basically meet all the Captains and Masters of the different Psychic arts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Well, ATS hardly has a balanced view of the Wolves. PB has the arduous task of introducing the Wolves as a whole to the 30k arena, which I think was mostly well done, but I do wish a more focused look as the Legion as a whole was presented. (rather than the direct view of KH, which while it did well for those around him, lacked true scale) I hope whatever the Wolves receive next goes into the Wolves themselves rather then Russ and a few handpicked. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Be quiet b1soul, lest those special snowflakes get a champion or two that can easily beat Sigismund :P Maybe they just don't have any, ya know? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Be quiet b1soul, lest those special snowflakes get a champion or two that can easily beat Sigismund LOL...I think BL is all on board the "Sigismund is #1" train, which is good as at least the loyalists get one dominant bada$$ (though Sevatar did manage to kinda stalemate him by cheating). I don't think Sig will be usurped by a Puppy Maybe they just don't have any, ya know? Wouldn't mind that actually I hope whatever the Wolves receive next goes into the Wolves themselves rather then Russ and a few handpicked. This is...Prospero Burns doesn't really give us a view of Russ and his hand-picked. I'd like for the next novel featuring SW to introduce us to the legion's elite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I can think of only a few authors (a very small few, like 1 or 2) who I would want to see 'legion elite' of wolves written by. Abnetts not one of them. I shudder to think of the damage a 'Wolf Champion' would do to the wider meta of the story when considering the result of Prospero Burns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I would say pretty much all the Jarls are champions (whatever that word means in this thread?). In Prospero Burns there is a phrase where Russ says he keeps Ogvai as a Jarl because he is great and all. So it sounds like Russ has a keen eye on the Jarls to make sure only the most competent is in command. At least Ogvai could be considered a champion I guess. He is pretty badass after all in Prospero Burns. I can think of only a few authors (a very small few, like 1 or 2) who I would want to see 'legion elite' of wolves written by. Abnetts not one of them. I shudder to think of the damage a 'Wolf Champion' would do to the wider meta of the story when considering the result of Prospero Burns. Just remember that 'damage' is one that only exist on the internet. It has been created by some extreme wolf fanboys/fundamentalists and a lot of people that love to bash away at the wolves and their fans just for the sake of it. Prospero Burns is one of the greatest books in the series, but a lot of people could not read it for what is it, but had to take it over the top with their own personal biased interpretations. Don't blame the book but the people that read everything in it literally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3708814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Don't really understand what this thread is about... every Space Wolf is a great champion Maybe it's the pack mentality that stops one rising too far above the rest. I do think they need a Sigismund/Sevatar/Abaddon type character though. Nothing to compete with those others, but just a Legion Champion that would give other champions pause. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 One would assume that every Legion has someone, a paragon brotherhood of eighteen or so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 In 'Betrayer', Khârn talks about having faced a Wolf (name escapes me) who was a "Baersark of tra", so I guess the 3rd company champion. I'm looking forward (obivously) the the Wolves' HH book to have some more light shed on that rank because I haven't heard about it anywhere else as of yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I would say pretty much all the Jarls are champions (whatever that word means in this thread?). In Prospero Burns there is a phrase where Russ says he keeps Ogvai as a Jarl because he is great and all. So it sounds like Russ has a keen eye on the Jarls to make sure only the most competent is in command. At least Ogvai could be considered a champion I guess. He is pretty badass after all in Prospero Burns. I can think of only a few authors (a very small few, like 1 or 2) who I would want to see 'legion elite' of wolves written by. Abnetts not one of them. I shudder to think of the damage a 'Wolf Champion' would do to the wider meta of the story when considering the result of Prospero Burns. Just remember that 'damage' is one that only exist on the internet. It has been created by some extreme wolf fanboys/fundamentalists and a lot of people that love to bash away at the wolves and their fans just for the sake of it. Prospero Burns is one of the greatest books in the series, but a lot of people could not read it for what is it, but had to take it over the top with their own personal biased interpretations. Don't blame the book but the people that read everything in it literally. Please feel free to enlighten me to 'what it is' then, because its one of the worst in the series to me having added little of worth (Bjorn) and actively degraded the setting (Watch Packs, Executiones and Exceptionalism). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I'm not really surprised that the Wolves haven't got that many big names yet. As far as I'm aware, we're still waiting for a book properly about the Wolves themselves. All we've got so far is one book really about a remembrancer and a bunch of cameos in other Legion's stories. Although one of my favourite portrayals thus far as been the Jarl of Fyf, Alhomdi Skarsen Skarsenssen (no idea if I've spelt that right) in ATS. His reaction is pretty epic when the Eldar Titan things turn up, but the main reason I like him is because his name is just pure awesome imo. Do we know yet if he survived Hathor Maat's psychic assault at the end of ATS? Edited for spelling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I would say pretty much all the Jarls are champions (whatever that word means in this thread?). In Prospero Burns there is a phrase where Russ says he keeps Ogvai as a Jarl because he is great and all. So it sounds like Russ has a keen eye on the Jarls to make sure only the most competent is in command. At least Ogvai could be considered a champion I guess. He is pretty badass after all in Prospero Burns. I can think of only a few authors (a very small few, like 1 or 2) who I would want to see 'legion elite' of wolves written by. Abnetts not one of them. I shudder to think of the damage a 'Wolf Champion' would do to the wider meta of the story when considering the result of Prospero Burns. Just remember that 'damage' is one that only exist on the internet. It has been created by some extreme wolf fanboys/fundamentalists and a lot of people that love to bash away at the wolves and their fans just for the sake of it. Prospero Burns is one of the greatest books in the series, but a lot of people could not read it for what is it, but had to take it over the top with their own personal biased interpretations. Don't blame the book but the people that read everything in it literally. Please feel free to enlighten me to 'what it is' then, because its one of the worst in the series to me having added little of worth (Bjorn) and actively degraded the setting (Watch Packs, Executiones and Exceptionalism). Watch packs came in other books. As far as I remember there were no watch packs in Prospero Burns. The thing about executioners and execptionalism is exactly what I am talking about. It is something mentioned by few characters in the book and expresses their views. Nothing more. And people jumped on that and thought that since a character mentioned it in a book it must be right. Prospero Burns is one of the greatest portrayals of a legion so far. It gives enough insight, so that you can get an idea of what a bunch og post-humans think of the universe they are a part of, and how they see their role in it. But it dosen't give everything away and leaves room for others to come and fill in the gabs, and explore them in more detail, through other stories. All this nonsense about execptionalism is coming from the fans that look at a single molehill and declare it a mountain range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Agreed. I (obvs, YMMV) thought it was great. But what annoys me I'd the constant arguing over executioners thing. Just because it came from one character does not make it verbatim. The fact that the same people always bring it up makes it doubly irritating. Anyhow. I hope the SW get some good, classy champions in their next book. Not before the Iron Hands, mind you. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 When you have a novel that focuses on the NCOs and company advisors who are kind of outside the chain of command, with very little screen time given to the senior command staff on the field of battle, no one warrior gets put on a pedestal like Sigismund, or Khârn, or Abaddon, or Velentus Dolor, or Ralderon, or Argal Tal, or Sevetar, or Corswain. I can't see it being Bjorn since he's constantly portrayed as the youngest among the Legion veterans, and someone who's kept close to the primarch out of some sense of the strength of his destiny. If I had to guess, I'd go with Gunnar Gunnhilt just because he's captain of 1st company. Or that could mean he was just the best candidate to replace the previous 1st Company Captain and was only a part of the 1st company because dumb luck saw him assigned there rather than to one of the other companies. Only time, and Inferno, will tell. And, for the record, I think Sigismund needs to remain atop his pedestal as the grand poobah paragon killing machine of the loyal Astartes. The setting as a whole would be diminished by him getting the Lucius treatment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedwaKe Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Bjorn might not be a high ranking officer of the Vlka fenryka but he managed to kick a khorne ''daemon king'' (bloodthirster?) a** in bjorn: lone wolf short story. That makes him a tough badass imo And I remember reading somewhere -think it was here on the bolter and chainsword- that the wolves needed a ''champion'' and ADB agreed. So we might see one someday. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I'm not sure Bjorn would qualify in my mind. I think of the old fluff about Russ' eventual disappearance. If I recall correctly, Bjorn was the youngest addition to Russ' old guard, and for that reason was left behind (not because it was a "failure," but because he felt somebody had to stay and live to lead the Chapter, so why not the one who still had the most to live?). He is an exceptional Space Wolf, because he is the guy who joins said Primarch Guard, which I would assume isn't something just any Space Wolf can do, but I wouldn't put him in the same ranks as the likes of Sigismund, Khârn, Sevatar, Abaddon, and the like. Not during the Crusade/Heresy era at least. If I recall correctly, he mostly comes to shine during the Scouring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactire Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I don't think we need them and I would actually prefer if we didn't get any. The pack mentality would seem to make them unneeded, with the company Jarl's being the alpha males but not super heroes. The wolves seem to work together rather than having stand out super champions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Space wolves don't have any champions like Sigismund, Raldoron, and Alajos because obviously as space wolves they could beat any of the other legions renowned fighters blind folded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 In 'Betrayer', Khârn talks about having faced a Wolf (name escapes me) who was a "Baersark of tra", so I guess the 3rd company champion. . Good catch. I forgot about that...but I believe Khârn killed the guy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 The book Blood of Asaheim (set in 40k mind you) mentions that one of the pack members of the de facto champion of the Grey Hunter pack, who is armed with a rune etched weapon as a mark of his skill. so I can see something like this for the 30k Wolves. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3709900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I think the reason we don't have one yet is because the only known character from that era is Bjorn. Most of the other champion characters have been people that we knew about before, and any that aren't have emerged as part of dedicated novels about the legions. We just haven't had one of those yet. We have only really followed a single pack with other characters appearing as needed, but never for long. Bjorn will no doubt develop over the heresy, but im sure as soon as we get a full dedicated novel then more characters will develop. I won't give any spoilers, but there is definitely a follow on to vengeful spirit coming at some point where im sure the wolves will feature heavily. That would be my guess, as well as some additional character development for Bjorn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3710193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I'm hopeful that we get to see Bjorn's transition from just another sword as it were upwards until he's basically the right hand of the Wolf King. He'd have to be something pretty special to be entrusted with stewardship of the Vlka Fenryka. But then of course is the inevitable band wagon jumping by the extra fanboys proclaiming across the universe that this mean's he's better than all the rest. Yawn. Don't get me wrong I'm not looking to label all SW fans/players like that, indeed I know a few and they're the most rational and unbiased people you could meet. And I wouldn't ever begrudge someone their opinion. However when that opinion directly contravenes the stated aims and direction of the authors then, yeah, shut up, you're wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/#findComment-3710251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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