Leif Bearclaw Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 It does amuse me somewhat, not being around for these SW arguments which apparently followed the release of Prospero Burns, that in my time here I've seen so much more bile directed at the Wolves and these apparently fanatical Wolf fanboys, than any declarations or bile from those fanboys themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 You're lucky lol, it felt like being on warseer or dakka dakka in the months after that novel dropped. Then it went into a different but related direction when Betrayer was released and ADB attempted to steer the perception back to it's intended crux, which merely spawned fanatical "ADB hates Space Wolves!!!" trolling. Thankfully a lot of the threads were closed and a few of the more vociferous ones found their long home with some of the hardware changes the BnC went through. Nowadays it's a lot calmer but all it takes is a mention in a novel somewhere and it can all kick off again.I'll admit I try my hardest to stay away from it but there's only so much ignorance/arrogance/pigheadedness I can stomach before a response is required. Personally, I love their 30k incarnation and the perceptions both from themselves and other Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 You see the occasional quip or comment from both camps still but it is rare. Personally, I like the flavour of the GC/HH Wolves though they hold no special place in my heart. So what style of uber-Marine/champion would people like to see? What kind of flavour? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I'd like to see Jorin Bloodhowl, Jarl of the 13th. The guy's job is to keep the Wulfen Company, least stable in the Rout, in line. So he should be pretty damn awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 In 'Betrayer', Khârn talks about having faced a Wolf (name escapes me) who was a "Baersark of tra", so I guess the 3rd company champion. . Good catch. I forgot about that...but I believe Khârn killed the guy Khârn killed the :cuss outta that guy, but 1. He is Khârn so it shouldn't tarnish him too bad and 2. Champions just sometimes lose. I'm only willing to really accept Sigismund is the ONLY Astartes to NEVER lose an honor duel/death duel Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I mean I can't think of any premier Salamanders, Raven Gaurd, or Death Gaurd duels man that reaches up there. And I don't count Typhon because he's yet to show any worth, and I sure as hell don't count Sharrowkyn (that needs no explanation). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theis Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I look at legion fanatics the way I look at sports fanatics. Irrational, and their opinions are to be weighted with that in mind. To continue the sports analogy a bit, let's look at football (American). I am a huge fan of the Miami Dolphins. I am old enough to remember their undefeated season, and their best years of the early 70's. They are, without a doubt, my favorite team, by a large margin. To claim that they are " the best" and that no other team can hold a candle to them, would be ludicrous. Sure, there are no other teams that have had an entirely undefeated season, but that was when a season was 14 games, not 16. There a number of teams that have gone 14-0 before losing that fifteenth or sixteenth game, and thus not having an undefeated season. The dolphins, for a large number of years, haven't done at all well. Yet, go to Miami, and you will hear any number of people that the Dolphins are simply the best team ever, and when asked why will usually bring up the perfect season, which occurred forty-two years ago. So, Space Wolves, yep, love the legion, love the chapter, like their fluff, but the basis of their "exceptionalism," their nature as the emperor's "executioners," stems from one book, out of twenty-nine, so far. That it was a book about the Space Wolves, told from the perspective of one of the rememberancers imbedded in the legion, who later on went on to be interred with the legion's dreadnaughts in their cold storage, just further emphasizes that anyone using so obviously biased a source as the basis for the assertion that they are the "best legion ever," is obviously arguing from something other than logic. In both instances outlined above, the hypothetical opinion holder is arguing from bias that has never been critically examined. If it had been, such obvious flaws would have led them to differing conclusions. The most that can reasonably be extrapolated from Prospero Burns is that the Wolves believe themselves to be the emperor's executioners as they are the legion sent to sanction other legions, twice if the books is to be believed, and if we add in Betrayer, then there is evidence to support this belief of theirs being so strong that they take it upon themselves to try it with the World Eaters, despite not having orders to do so. So, at most, given the entirety of the Horus Heresy series to date, filtered through a relatively neutral filter, we only have evidence to suggest that the wolves believe themselves executioners, and have been used to sanction other legions twice, the Thousand Sons and one of the missing legions, and have attempted to embrace that perceived role, on their own, at least once. That, by no means, is enough evidence to support that as their official role and purpose behind their creation. So, given all of the above, it baffles me why anyone takes a die hard Space Wolf player espousing that particular nonsense at all seriously. It has been said, frequently, within the confines of this forum by a notable Black Library author, that no one legion is "the best." At most, there are a couple who specialize in a particular role, or variety of warfare, and will perform in that narrow area, better than most of the others. They all have rivals in that role or area of specialization though. So, more on topic, Space Wolves champions, I am sure there will be one, and I wouldn't be at all surprised of the lack of one to date has a lot to do with the fans' backlash at this particular set of nonsense. I too don't think there has been a stellar candidate for such an individual so far within the Horus Heresy series, outside of Bjorn, but that is only because we know what he becomes after Russ departs. I look forward to seeing this champion though. Given that the legion champion generally seems to embody the nature of the legion, I think he will be immensely entertaining, seemingly barbaric, quite intelligent, certainly possessed of a good sense of humor, and utterly lethal. To me, that sounds like an entertaining character to read about. For the record, I have about 10,000 points worth of Space Wolves. They were my second army, and the one I played throughout 5th and in most of 6th. I am a fan of the legion by any measurement. I am just capable of looking at my fandom rationally, and would suggest we give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who isn't capable of doing so, with any legion. Some people simply aren't capable of looking rationally at something the love, or of accepting that it being their favorite, does not, in fact, make it more special than others. Ultimately, it is quite difficult to reason someone out of an opinion that wasn't arrived at that way. Sorry for the lengthy post, but the divisiveness of this executioner nonsense really works my nerves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 One would assume that every Legion has someone, a paragon brotherhood of eighteen or so. Or, you know, we could do what some settings do and have at least some of our heroic champions die awesomely heroic deaths in ages long past, their skills being so that none remaining come close to rivalling them. But that would require the setting to be grimdark. Maybe, just maybe, there was once a wolf that followed his primarch's orders and died in glorious battle, instead of choosing to stay at home on Sol because of heathen prophesies. There, don't say I don't pet my dogs every once in a while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 One would assume that every Legion has someone, a paragon brotherhood of eighteen or so.Or, you know, we could do what some settings do and have at least some of our heroic champions die awesomely heroic deaths in ages long past, their skills being so that none remaining come close to rivalling them. But that would require the setting to be grimdark. Maybe, just maybe, there was once a wolf that followed his primarch's orders and died in glorious battle, instead of choosing to stay at home on Sol because of heathen prophesies. There, don't say I don't pet my dogs every once in a while. Hey, nobody said they all had to be around at the same time, or still living by the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I'm hopeful that we get to see Bjorn's transition from just another sword as it were upwards until he's basically the right hand of the Wolf King. He'd have to be something pretty special to be entrusted with stewardship of the Vlka Fenryka. Thats already started. Bjorn is called to Russ's side when he sends his plea for the White Scars to aid him against the White Scars. An interesting conversation between them: Russ: Remember how this happened, One-Hand. Remember it all. The Legion will need you to keep the knowledge alive Bjorn: You will not leave us Russ: I will one day. You, I am not so sure. Your wyrd is unclear to me. But enough of this. We have work to do Russ clearly sees something in Bjorn greater than his axe hand. (hehe) He somehow knows that Bjorn will be the the Wolves when he himself wont. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3710984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 In the Audio Drama hunters moon the SW character introduces himself as the champion of the fourth company and claims to have never met his match in combat. He has no reason to boast at the time, and he is telling a story which to wolves is sacred so I doubt he would lie. I guess that the other companies would have champions as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3712248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 In BotF, Bjorn mentions Godsmote and Jormungr Two-blade with some kind words. Maybe they might make an appearance in the HH book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3712270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 In the Audio Drama hunters moon the SW character introduces himself as the champion of the fourth company and claims to have never met his match in combat. He has no reason to boast at the time, and he is telling a story which to wolves is sacred so I doubt he would lie. I guess that the other companies would have champions as wellWell he did think that he killed Alpharius in close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3712282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
svane jotunsbane Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 easy to do ,all you have to do is kill 1 alpha legionnaire, seeing as they all claim to be alpharius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3712858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 In BotF, Bjorn mentions Godsmote and Jormungr Two-blade with some kind words. Maybe they might make an appearance in the HH book. They both appear in Prospero Burns. Then in Scars they are both in Bjorn's pack. Scars also has a throw away line in which Godsmote asks if Bjorn even needs two hands. After Bjorn does a number on some Alpha Legion. So Bjorn is not a champion of renown... Yet. but I'm sure he will be when it is time for Russ to leave. Also Russ calls him Bear to Malcador. It is entirely posible that the 40k Saga of the Bear is based on Bjorn's saga more then any tale of "Bears". Since fluff wise Bjorn is known for being hard to kill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3712910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I would be pretty sure that Lord Gunn of the First Great Company would be a pretty tough cookie in a go. Godsmote is a good fighter and axeman but in PB it is Twoblades who is the champion of Tra, even being an escort for Ogvai with Longfang at one point. Skarsi seems to have his own retinue (the dumb Mohawk[?] guy) and I would suspect each lord has their Jarls, Axemen and shieldbearers; men they could rely upon to be their champions and the champions of their fellowship. Pretty sure that Wolf who told Angron 'to stand down/its over' in Betrayer is admantium ceramite dipped double hard. You have to be a pretty bad mofo to make that kind of boast to that monster and expect to carry it out in the middle of that chaos. As to the guy that Khârn kills, the 'Baersark of Tra *beats chest*' dying a "bad" death, that was just an artistic look at it from Bloodspitter. I mean, its Bloodspitter. Even Khârn is like 'all deaths are bad deaths' or something to that effect. Definitely agree with the guys saying that Bjorn is not a champion quite yet but is well on his way. I havent read Scars yet so I am excited to see a bit more of the Bear and his cohorts from Tra. I dont know if fluffwise that Bjorn is hard to kill. I mean, he is (un)dead in the 40k timeline. He pretty much had to have died to get into that big ol' deathnaught he has become. edit: Stonerhino: Yeah! I always have argued that Prospero Burns should have been titled Saga of the Bear Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3712932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 As far back as the 2nd ed codex Bjorn has had rules to allow him to survive hits better then other dreadnaughts. His survival is not mere chance. Perhaps it is his natural cunning and fortune that protects hims, or maybe the spirit of Russ cintinues to watch over him as many believe. This fortune is reflected in the following special rule. ~ 2nd ed SW codex page 68 PS: Prospero Burns = Saga of the Bear: would have been awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3712970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valdus Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 A Champion? You mean the one who is most well know for his skill at arms, strength and courage? An Alpha? They've already got one.... He's called Russ... Seriously though, it does seem more that the pack mentality would preclude a solitary warrior archetype. There's only been one Long Fang so far and we've yet to see a Lone Wolf equivalent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3713783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Seriously though, it does seem more that the pack mentality would preclude a solitary warrior archetype. Seriously though...plenty of legions highly prize teamwork and brotherhood. The Ultramarines would be an obvious example. That doesn't prevent them from having champions or champion equivalents. I find it hard to believe that Fenrisian culture doesn't exalt individual skill-at-arms as long as its employed to the benefit of the pack Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3714010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Seriously though, it does seem more that the pack mentality would preclude a solitary warrior archetype. Seriously though...plenty of legions highly prize teamwork and brotherhood. The Ultramarines would be an obvious example. That doesn't prevent them from having champions or champion equivalents. I find it hard to believe that Fenrisian culture doesn't exalt individual skill-at-arms as long as its employed to the benefit of the pack I would say however that in game play the Wolves never have had an Emperor's Champion. It has never really been a part of the game play that seems to echo in their fluff as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3714108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Can't remember where it was printed or by which author but there's a pretty good quote to sum up the point I'm trying to make. Amongst soldiers there will be warriors, amongst warriors there will be princes, among the princes will be kings, and from those kings will be an Emperor. That's the nature of a warrior culture, the cream always rises to the very top. I agree that a pack mentality would be of more obvious benefit, that doesn't preclude some supremely talented killers from being among their ranks. You could really count Russ in with that. If you added him to the logic above he would be God Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3714192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Can't remember where it was printed or by which author but there's a pretty good quote to sum up the point I'm trying to make. Amongst soldiers there will be warriors, amongst warriors there will be princes, among the princes will be kings, and from those kings will be an Emperor. Said by Ulric, of the Nadir, at Dros Delnoch after the death of Druss the Legend - at least that's where I know it from! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3714199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 I would say however that in game play the Wolves never have had an Emperor's Champion. It has never really been a part of the game play that seems to echo in their fluff as well. Does any chapter have an Emperor's Champion other than the Black Templars? What I do know is that the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves hold honour duels between the two legions. In Unremembered Empire, the Space Wolf leader wants to challenge a Dark Angel champion but ends up getting slapped down by the Lion himself. Khârn kills a Space Wolf who seems to be a champion ("wielder of Serpent Fang"). Yeah...I would say the Sixth has champion equivalents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3714204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I would say however that in game play the Wolves never have had an Emperor's Champion. It has never really been a part of the game play that seems to echo in their fluff as well. Does any chapter have an Emperor's Champion other than the Black Templars? It used to be that every Chapter had access to an Emperor's Champion but then it became a BT thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3714206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Can't remember where it was printed or by which author but there's a pretty good quote to sum up the point I'm trying to make. Amongst soldiers there will be warriors, amongst warriors there will be princes, among the princes will be kings, and from those kings will be an Emperor. Said by Ulric, of the Nadir, at Dros Delnoch after the death of Druss the Legend - at least that's where I know it from! I've actually got a dose of shame that I forgot that was where it's from. Epic books Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292001-who-are-the-great-sw-champions-of-the-heresy-era/page/2/#findComment-3714211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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