7th Ed. Heavy Support Discussion

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello reader, now I know that our Codex should come out some time within the remaining part of the year.

 

That said, I think there still needs to be a reevaluation of 6th to 7th Heavy Support choices, and in a way, other areas as well.  With the change to 7th of Vehicles needing a 7+ to be destroyed, our el cheapo and great points costed Long Fangs may be a thing of the past, at least until next edition.

 

ML's are not as strong as they once were, and things to pick up the slack are not cheap points wise, sometimes models wise.

 

I think until we see the new Codex, yes, there's some issue with asking for a discussion now; in my experience, it seems like there's a great deal of time between now and our new Codex, and people are going to want to get games under their belt(s).  To that end, what works for each of us as far as overall ideas going forward?

 

Long Fangs are a solid unit with a pretty large number of heavy weapons in their packs, the problem being, they will be targeted if possible and one's firepower in the metagame will be greatly diminished.

 

Long Fangs,

Vindicators,

Whirlwinds,

Dreadnoughts,

Predators,

Land Raiders and Crusaders,

 

To hunt the foe, what comes out of the armories of the Vlka to hunt what?

 

I know the missile all rounders platform idea sounds great, and, as we are likely to get Flakk come our new Codex, the problem will be that Lascannons all across one unit of LF's may become more useful due to the range.

 

I see a great deal of shoehorning in our future, due to points pinching and requirements to fight the enemy.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit:

 

Due to the changing discussion in this thread, the topic of this thread is Anti Armor units, and how they might be best combined together into a solid list.  Now, to say it, this is rather new to me, so please feel free to provide feedback so I can get the OP the most legible, sensible and informative post it can be.

 

Anti Armor Units:

 

Predator Annihilator (Sponsons vary, likely LC)

- Three Lascannons, one twin linked, provides a steady profile of heavy firepower towards other tanks.  Range is good, however without the added punch of AP 1 this option will require very high rolls to penetrate the target to get a 7+ per hit.  That said, there's up to three dice that might do it, so it's possible.  Armor facing may prove tricky at first, considering other threats on the field, as well, so use instinct and your senses to tell you what to face your forward armor towards.

 

TLLC Dreadnought

- One TLLC, a bit cheaper than a Predator currently, likely to be in line with SM Codex Dreads soon enough, I'd personally wonder if the BS 5 of Venerable is cheap enough to become worth it at higher points value games.  Depending upon what the Left Arm is for your build, ML for firesupport options, a TLAC, or a DCCW for keeping the enemy at bay, this option is limited in quantity of shots with the possibility of soon becoming one of the most accurate TLLC we can get.

 

TLAC Pair Dreadnought (Light armor and transport hunter)

- Rifleman Dread, will also in time hopefully become a relatively cheap light armor hunter, of both transports and likely AV 12 (at best) tanks.  Four dice to hit, the soon to become cheaper option of BS 5 as well as the above, the S 7 shots are reliable in hitting, however, their base strength means at most one can hunt AV 12 at best reliably, as 5's are needed to glance hits off the target.  Not great, however, versus AV 11 targets this fire platform can do well, and in a pinch, hunt troops.

 

Long Fangs w/ LC's

- The most vulnerable target from enemy fire if not handled correctly, finding a piece of sturdy cover to fire from is a great possibility as far as things go if one can find a safe place for the LF's to be deployed into to start.  If cover is hard to find, I have found a Razorback or Rhino to screen the eldest amongst the Vlka can also work to get them into position for real shooting over time.  The Transport can fire instead, however is that is very few shots compared to when the entire unti fires.

 

WG w/ TH/SS,

- Depending upon number used, as they are not a points effective option right now, which may change, these warriors can hurt both troops as well as hammer away on enemy armor quite well.  The bigger issue is, as stated, they're not going to be available all the time as the SW's pay a great deal more for them points wise.  That all said, they can be very heavy hitting in terms of melee, as with a full compliment of dice swinging, this increases the odds of getting a 7+ on the pen chart.  Just realize that like any other troop unit being close to a vehicle popping, it can harm those that took it out.  Glancing to death may also occur.

 

Meltabomb Scouts

- Our Scouts having a hard time getting into melee with a tank first turn from another board edge, if one can get the unit into cover, and then charge the next turn, perhaps this old yet now nerfed option will perform well.  I personally would like to know if the Codex we get soon makes changes to this, however, Scout Snipers may work better overall, depending upon things.

 

Storm Eagle with Dual TLLC Wing Mounts

- At 315 total points with EA, TLMM in the nose, and dual TLLC on the wings, this massive points sink can, if you use it to hunt ground targets, put so much hurt down that if it is accurate, there's enough pain coming to make most players being targeted cringe.  There's also the twin Vengeance launchers, that toss two 5" pie plates; think Heavy Bolter five in pie plates.  If used on air targets, the Vengeance launchers cannot fire; get close, and that TLMM might really make them hurt.

 

Astartes Stormwing Formation TLLC on each

- With TLLC on each of the three flyers of this formation, this formation is not cheap, however it can hunt up to three separate targets.  If there's one thing the Storm Eagle cannot do, is fire on more than one target.  If lined up right, the Stormwing can fire on up to three, and possibly more than one target if priority while shooting and facing is important.  This Formation has more HP's than the Storm Eagle as well, just with lower armor on two fliers, it can get dicey at times.

 

Grey Hunters with two Melta guns (optional Plasma Pistol)

- If one is going to put a unit in a Rhino without a WGPL, this is the one to consider when hunting tanks for on the cheap.  Firing from the top hatch, two MG's can really mean a great deal of a threat to the foe if things go your way on the dice.  Can also be not enough, due to range, dice, etc.  Still, for a unit that hunts tanks, this is a great way to say something meaningful for on the cheap.

 

Swift Claws with Melta gun and Multi-melta Attack Bike

- Swift and mobile, this option to me says get over there, and fire on that target.  One of the few MM options outside of the LR hulls, this takes a bit of skill to learn how to best make use of, however once learned one can really take the hurt to the foe with this option.  Twelve inches base, and a good twenty four inches range on the MM, one can fire on the target pretty reliably as one closes.

 

Land Raider Phobos with dual Twin-linked Lascannon and pintle-mounted Multi-melta

- Lots of quality shooting, fourty eight inch range on the LC, and twenty four on the MM, there can be a great deal of firepower coming out of this massive tank.  The problem is as always the cost in points and the model itself, as well as most people just seem to want the LR's dead, no matter the variant.  That said, if one takes one, consider not putting anything in it.  I run Crusaders to get my BC units around, so if I had a LRP to use, it'd be empty.

 

Land Speeder Tornado with Multi-melta (or even dual Multi-meltas)

- I personally would just go dual MM, this nastily fast and nimble little thing can get where it's least wanted rather quickly and put the hurt in really badly if it makes twelve inches to the target.  I'd debate over whether to run them in squadrons, however this is an option as well, considering their relative low cost and high mobility.

 

Wolf Guard pack with Combi-meltas

- Usually Drop Podded in, this unit is going to give you a suicide squad of say six to ten, fire and forget.  This is Lone Wolf possible, and might get the squad shot to bits for what they do; that said, the glory that they can earn if they slay their target tank...

 

Wolf Scout pack with Melta gun and Plasma Pistol

- This is the likely most expected current edition capable WS pack setup one can find.  It's low points cost, potentially much higher return if one can OBEL or Outflank into a really sweet shooting gallery.

 

Lone Wolf with Chainfist/Thunder Hammer

- One of the best walking platforms around that's hard to slay, paired with a SS, a LW is one of the best points effective ways of going after something big that rolls along the ground.  If you have one spare Elites choice, go with a LW if there's spare points, and let that warrior go earn a righteous kill for his fallen pack.

 

CML TDA WG (attach or keep in starting pack as needed)

- Possibly deadly alone, also good with ML LF's, this is a sturdy shooting missile platform that just says, "Hi!"  Expect the unit these go with, whether one or two, to be a major sticking point for the enemy.

 

CML w/ MM TDA WG?

- Requiring ten WG in the pack, taking both HW's from said pack, and being a real pain to deal with, this one wound shooting platform with likely either a SS or a PF or Chainfist is going to be a massive game threat; he's also going to take one unlucky die roll to lose.  Great in big games for story, not so likely around 1500 points.  I'd personally not do this, however, for the right reasons, he's going to draw massive fire to the unit, and expect things to dive at his pack to stop him.

 

GH's with MG, WGPL with Combi Melta

- Depending on one's other GH packs layouts, what options one has given them, this is an alternative to twin MG, just with one turn of two firing.  This allows a higher leadership, however, misses will be more likely felt as compared to two firing all the time.  Many players of the SW's run three GH packs, one with MG's to choice, one with PG's to choice, and one with FL's to choice.  It keeps one using certain tactics, and is quite flexible going forward.  User experience may vary.

 

Skyclaws with Meltabombs

- Ten to possibly twelve MB's being placed on a target from a unit that has all the speed they want, just none of the respect, can really cause things to just vanish in one massive flash, or one unrelenting wave of chainswords.  Taking Skyclaws now is great, if one knows how to best use them properly.  The problem comes from getting the charge with rerolls, or using the JP's to go twelve inches to close more distance.  Choices.

 

Swiftclaws with Meltabombs

- Another MB choice, combined with a MG And MM Atk Bike choice above, if the squad is not meant to do much more than just go hunt armor, this can work well.

 

TWC with TH (SS's to flavor)

- This just makes the target say, "Ow," overall.  The problem is taking a full unit to protect the TH can get points prohibitive, as well as there's the models in BTB contact that can cause issues.  Still, can work; it's skill that will see you through.

 

Vindicator in a pinch

- One round, either on Infantry, or on enemy armor.  Great for cracking just about any tank, as it takes AV 14 to force a 50% chance of success, this is one big gun that if it lives long enough to draw enemy fire to glance it to death, expect other things to live a great deal longer.  Sometimes this deadly tank gets dropped; it's better this goes down than anything else, just try to make your other shooting count.  That said, no cheating: sometimes luck smiles, sometimes luck frowns.

 

I can't list points, however, I hope this helps a little.

[Teetengee]

Lascannons have always been and will always be my favorite weapon in this game. They have long range and, although they are rarely the most efficient tool, can kill anything. That being said, they are expensive and on units of long fangs fragile. You really need multiple units to make use of them and prevent them just getting targeted down at the beginning of the game. My suggestion for those who still want to use them is to only use them in larger games with more points to sink into them either via multiple detachments or unbound.

[Karack Blackstone]

Lascannons have always been and will always be my favorite weapon in this game. They have long range and, although they are rarely the most efficient tool, can kill anything. That being said, they are expensive and on units of long fangs fragile. You really need multiple units to make use of them and prevent them just getting targeted down at the beginning of the game. My suggestion for those who still want to use them is to only use them in larger games with more points to sink into them either via multiple detachments or unbound.

 

The problem is, overall, do we pull out the old Predators again these days and try them out?  It's a great deal harder to deal with a tank, that said, the meta appears to be changing such that tanks are once again a useful thing, perhaps too much so, as Long Fangs are easily shut down with the enemy shooting at them.

 

I guess my overall question is, at the current costs listed in our 5th Ed. Codex, is a TLLC Predator with LC Sponsons a reasonable thing to get on the field?  I prefer 6 strong LF packs in a Razorback, which typically goes above in total points costs compared to a Predator, might a Pred and a Vindi suit me, or if I need to, 2 HQ's, 4 Troops, and then more than one FOC of HS fill in for the shooting I shall require to cover all my bases?

[Teetengee]

I think that if tanks continue to become a larger force, double FOC (or extra self allied FOC) is the way to go. Take 3 or four TTLC/LC or AC/LC preds and that should solve anti vehicle problems. (The ac/lc are a little cheaper and probably sufficient for dealing with light vehicles quickly.)

 

Edit: Sorry, still working through the nuts and bolts of 7th.

[Squark]

^No, the double force org chart is not the way to go. You do NOT want to open that can of worms unless you want to start the cheesefest, and we can't win that. (For the record, you can't ally with yourself. It has to be a different codex within your faction (Black Legion with Chaos Space Marines works, but Space wolves with Space wolves does not)).

 

Hrmm...

 

 

Well, let's see...

 

 

Long Fangs with Missile Launchers are still respectable hull point strippers, so that remains an option,* although drop pod armies NEED to provide alternative targets (Thunderwolf Cavalry and something from an allied detachment. A Dreadknight is looking attractive atm, but a Leman Russ, wyvern, or the like works too), as well as cheep screening (Guard blobs, 10-man sniper scout units, or Henchman). Lascannons and Plasma cannons should probably be taken from allied detachments at least until the new codex, since they got a significant price drop. Vindicators are still respectable, while Whirlwinds are still... whirlwinds (ally in a thunderfire cannon instead). Dreadnaughts have issues in assault, although the Rifleman configuration is another alternative for hull point stripping. Land raiders... If you take one, take 3. Finally, wolf guard with combi-weapons are an option. So, I'd say we still have choices.

 

As for the predator, well... Armor saturation. Seriously. It has been a thing since 5th, people. If you take one tank, take 5.

 

 

*Flakk missiles are not the answer we need. They work for Dark Angels because they can have them all over the board. We'd be concentrating them in at most 2-3 spaces, making them easy prey for the opponent.

[CatSmasher]

I just bought a vindicator. Its a nice bullet sponge and has an S10 option for those pesky chaos marines. its nice against mobs too. I like that its a pressure unit you can advance behind, and ppl generally shoot at it over the LF and RP because I park them in cover.

[skeletoro]

I'd say put your heavy weapons on fliers.

[Karack Blackstone]

^No, the double force org chart is not the way to go. You do NOT want to open that can of worms unless you want to start the cheesefest, and we can't win that. (For the record, you can't ally with yourself. It has to be a different codex within your faction (Black Legion with Chaos Space Marines works, but Space wolves with Space wolves does not)).

 

Hrmm...

 

 

Well, let's see...

 

 

Long Fangs with Missile Launchers are still respectable hull point strippers, so that remains an option,* although drop pod armies NEED to provide alternative targets (Thunderwolf Cavalry and something from an allied detachment. A Dreadknight is looking attractive atm, but a Leman Russ, wyvern, or the like works too), as well as cheep screening (Guard blobs, 10-man sniper scout units, or Henchman). Lascannons and Plasma cannons should probably be taken from allied detachments at least until the new codex, since they got a significant price drop. Vindicators are still respectable, while Whirlwinds are still... whirlwinds (ally in a thunderfire cannon instead). Dreadnaughts have issues in assault, although the Rifleman configuration is another alternative for hull point stripping. Land raiders... If you take one, take 3. Finally, wolf guard with combi-weapons are an option. So, I'd say we still have choices.

 

As for the predator, well... Armor saturation. Seriously. It has been a thing since 5th, people. If you take one tank, take 5.

 

 

*Flakk missiles are not the answer we need. They work for Dark Angels because they can have them all over the board. We'd be concentrating them in at most 2-3 spaces, making them easy prey for the opponent.

 

Hm.

 

Interesting.

 

Hehe, "Vindi's gotta die!" is one of my favorite fire magnets; too bad mine actually do go down.

[Valerian]

 

Certainly it just became harder to one-shot vehicles, but the process for stripping Hull Points with glances hasn't changed one bit from 6e.

 

Not to detract from the thread, or your effort here, I'd just like to propose that comparing/evaluating Heavy Support choices might not be the right approach. Just because the various units sit in the same FOC "bucket" doesn't mean they are suited to doing the same tasks, or filling the same role. For example, I never counted Long Fangs as my primary anti-tank unit, but only a back-up unit toward that task. Why? Well, when you you give them an honest assessment, they aren't particularly well-suited for anti-tank work. There are several alternative units that can destroy enemy tanks much more reliably than Long Fangs, and most of those don't even reside in the Heavy Support slot.

 

Hopefully, in the near future I can do a 7e revision for my years-old army building guide, and put that forth for the Fang's consideration.

 

V

[Karack Blackstone]

I'd say put your heavy weapons on fliers.

 

Fair point; Storm Eagle and / or Astartes Stormwing Formation say hello.  Only problem is, a Predator might do it better for less, at least as far as ground targets go overall.

 

Certainly it just became harder to one-shot vehicles, but the process for stripping Hull Points with glances hasn't changed one bit from 6e.

 

Not to detract from the thread, or your effort here, I'd just like to propose that comparing/evaluating Heavy Support choices might not be the right approach. Just because the various units sit in the same FOC "bucket" doesn't mean they are suited to doing the same tasks, or filling the same role. For example, I never counted Long Fangs as my primary anti-tank unit, but only a back-up unit toward that task. Why? Well, when you you give them an honest assessment, they aren't particularly well-suited for anti-tank work. There are several alternative units that can destroy enemy tanks much more reliably than Long Fangs, and most of those don't even reside in the Heavy Support slot.

 

Hopefully, in the near future I can do a 7e revision for my years-old army building guide, and put that forth for the Fang's consideration.

 

V

 

A very fair point, this one.

 

I guess the idea started off way too soon in my head before making the thread.  As it is:

 

Anti Armor Units:

 

(Ground Units)

Predator Annihilator (Sponsons vary, likely LC)

TLLC Dreadnought

TLAC Pair Dreadnought

Long Fangs w/ LC's

WG w/ TH/SS,

Meltabomb Scouts

 

 

(Air Units)

Storm Eagle

Astartes Stormwing Formation

 

Anti Troop Units:

 

(Ground Units)

Long Fangs (ML, PC, HB)

Vindicator

Whirlwind

 

(Air Units)

Storm Eagle (Twin Pie-plates)

Caestus

 

I guess this kind of comparison and considerations cost is closer to what I had in mind, however, even then there's the issue of some things are just better, have a vastly improved points to performance cost comparison, and so on.

 

That revision of the 7th Ed. Army Building Guide seems like the best way to go, once we get the Codex and can figure out what works and what sounds right.

[Valerian]

That revision of the 7th Ed. Army Building Guide seems like the best way to go, once we get the Codex and can figure out what works and what sounds right.

I've actually already started the revision, and plan on publishing it in the near future. It will reflect any changes required from the new 7e rules update. I don't intend to wait until the new codex hits, as that may be as much as 7 months away, if the January 2015 rumors pan out. I can always do another quick revision once our 7e codex hits, without too much trouble.

 

That being said, I do still think that it is worthwhile to discuss Anti-Armor units here in this thread, and you can go over the pros and cons of each in detail here. I just think your new approach from your post just above is better than the original of just an examination of Heavy Support choices.

 

V

[Valerian]

Other units to consider:

 

Grey Hunters with two Melta guns (optional Plasma Pistol)

Swift Claws with Melta gun and Multi-melta Attack Bike

Land Raider Phobos with dual Twin-linked Lascannon and pintle-mounted Multi-melta

Land Speeder Tornado with Multi-melta (or even dual Multi-meltas)

Wolf Guard pack with Combi-meltas

Wolf Scout pack with Melta gun and Plasma Pistol

[skeletoro]

Rapier laser weapons batteries. Very sturdy compared with long fangs packs, and pack more of a punch, with slightly reduced range and even lower mobility.

 

In terms of anti vehicle fliers, the reason I made this suggestion is that not only are fliers slightly harder to explode (especially given that some of the up until now popular AA weapons are >ap2) but skyfire+interceptor has been nerfed. Taking fliers with good anti air is therefore doubly good: you get OPTIONAL AA weaponry (you can choose whether to use skyfire or not) and you'll quite possibly see fewer AA emplacements to shoot you down in the future.

 

I'd personally be reluctant to take a storm eagle because the vengeance launchers cannot snap fire or shoot fliers - limiting the flier's usefulness as a dogfighter - at least for the points you spend.

 

I am a big fan of all the eagle variants however. The fire raptor packs a lot of dakka, the roc pattern replaces the vengeance launcher with a much more practical option, and the darkwing would be an amazing way to ferry blood claws thanks to its blind USR, and outflank+stealth are nice perks to have too. Unfortunately only c:sm can take the roc and only 30k raven guard can take the darkwing!

[Karack Blackstone]

 

I'd say put your heavy weapons on fliers.

 

Fair point; Storm Eagle and / or Astartes Stormwing Formation say hello.  Only problem is, a Predator might do it better for less, at least as far as ground targets go overall.

 

Certainly it just became harder to one-shot vehicles, but the process for stripping Hull Points with glances hasn't changed one bit from 6e.

 

Not to detract from the thread, or your effort here, I'd just like to propose that comparing/evaluating Heavy Support choices might not be the right approach. Just because the various units sit in the same FOC "bucket" doesn't mean they are suited to doing the same tasks, or filling the same role. For example, I never counted Long Fangs as my primary anti-tank unit, but only a back-up unit toward that task. Why? Well, when you you give them an honest assessment, they aren't particularly well-suited for anti-tank work. There are several alternative units that can destroy enemy tanks much more reliably than Long Fangs, and most of those don't even reside in the Heavy Support slot.

 

Hopefully, in the near future I can do a 7e revision for my years-old army building guide, and put that forth for the Fang's consideration.

A very fair point, this one.

 

Anti Armor Units:

 

(Ground Units)

Predator Annihilator (Sponsons vary, likely LC)

TLLC Dreadnought

TLAC Pair Dreadnought

Long Fangs w/ LC's

WG w/ TH/SS,

Meltabomb Scouts

 

 

(Air Units)

Storm Eagle

Astartes Stormwing Formation

 

Other units to consider:

 

Grey Hunters with two Melta guns (optional Plasma Pistol)

Swift Claws with Melta gun and Multi-melta Attack Bike

Land Raider Phobos with dual Twin-linked Lascannon and pintle-mounted Multi-melta

Land Speeder Tornado with Multi-melta (or even dual Multi-meltas)

Wolf Guard pack with Combi-meltas

Wolf Scout pack with Melta gun and Plasma Pistol

 

Anti Armor Units:

 

(Ground Units)

Predator Annihilator (Sponsons vary, likely LC)

TLLC Dreadnought

TLAC Pair Dreadnought

Long Fangs w/ LC's

WG w/ TH/SS,

Meltabomb Scouts

 

 

(Air Units)

Storm Eagle

Astartes Stormwing Formation

 

(Copy Paste Credit to Valerian)

 

Other units to consider:

 

Grey Hunters with two Melta guns (optional Plasma Pistol)

Swift Claws with Melta gun and Multi-melta Attack Bike

Land Raider Phobos with dual Twin-linked Lascannon and pintle-mounted Multi-melta

Land Speeder Tornado with Multi-melta (or even dual Multi-meltas)

Wolf Guard pack with Combi-meltas

Wolf Scout pack with Melta gun and Plasma Pistol

 

Compiling a list of these might prove helpful overall.

 

Even more Anti Armor Units:

 

Lone Wolf with Chainfist/Thunder Hammer

CML TDA WG (attach or keep in starting pack as needed)

CML w/ MM TDA WG?

GH's with MG, WGPL with Combi Melta

Skyclaws with Meltabombs

Swiftclaws with Meltabombs

 

Any others?

[skeletoro]

 

That revision of the 7th Ed. Army Building Guide seems like the best way to go, once we get the Codex and can figure out what works and what sounds right.

I've actually already started the revision, and plan on publishing it in the near future. It will reflect any changes required from the new 7e rules update. I don't intend to wait until the new codex hits, as that may be as much as 7 months away, if the January 2015 rumors pan out. I can always do another quick revision once our 7e codex hits, without too much trouble.

 

That being said, I do still think that it is worthwhile to discuss Anti-Armor units here in this thread, and you can go over the pros and cons of each in detail here. I just think your new approach from your post just above is better than the original of just an examination of Heavy Support choices.

 

V

 

Just a heads-up, 40k radio are still saying we're next after orks (and that the blood angels rumour was a bad rumour).

[skeletoro]

Spartans are probably a lot better in 7th. The problem with >3 hull points is that you get diminishing returns because it becomes more likely you'll explode before you are stripped of hull points. Spartans have 5, as well as AV14 and armoured ceramite. More relevant, they pack 4 twin-linked lascannons in addition to their hefty transport capacity. Pretty good for approx. 300 points (its not a lot more than a pack of long fangs with 5 lascannons when you stop to think about it...)

[Kasper_Hawser]

I would rather keep this discussion to strictly current codex units, as opposed to Forge World. FW costs a hell of a lot of money, and moreover are not readily available to us in most of our local gaming shops. Otherwise I would have gotten a Thunderhawk and solve most of my anti-monster/anti-flyer issue.

 

I'm even willing to expand this discussion to suitable allies. In particular, I've heard a lot of great things about the Thunderfire cannon, though it is anti-infantry/horde rather than anti armour. But if I can use that unit to pin my enemies and slow their inexorable march through the table, it has done its job.

[Valerian]

 

 

 

 

Just a heads-up, 40k radio are still saying we're next after orks (and that the blood angels rumour was a bad rumour).

 

Good to know, I hadn't seen that yet.  Those guys are usually on the mark, too.  Thanks!

[Valerian]

I would rather keep this discussion to strictly current codex units, as opposed to Forge World. ...

 

I'm even willing to expand this discussion to suitable allies....

 

Kasper, this isn't your thread; you are welcome to ignore the discussions of Forge World units, or other options as you wish, but Brother Karack is free to lead this effort as he sees fit.

 

V

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I would rather keep this discussion to strictly current codex units, as opposed to Forge World. ...

 

I'm even willing to expand this discussion to suitable allies....

 

Kasper, this isn't your thread; you are welcome to ignore the discussions of Forge World units, or other options as you wish, but Brother Karack is free to lead this effort as he sees fit.

 

V

 

 

I didn't say this was my thread, I said I would "rather" keep this thread/discussion to codex units. It was just a suggestion for some of us who are just starting out and attempting to use our hard earn cash wisely and not splurge on FW or even other army codexes. Sorry if I made it sound like I'm dictating how this thread should go, believe me it was not my intention.

[Fytharin]

I agree that forgeworld options should be included in this conversation because in this edition I feel they're more viable than they ever were before. However for someone like myself and newer players who have never experienced the more serious tournament playing scene or stacked lists, this edition is intimidating because people are now starting to look more at the FW options.

 

I don't want to be spending that kind of money right now and I know there's a large group of people unable to do the same. I heard somewhere they were eventually going to merge forgeworld with GW all together to get rid of the seperation, did anyone else hear that?

 

Either way, I think LF's are still usable but this is the age of providing multiple strong targets to your opponent to make it difficult to choose which one he/she should target. I'm thrilled to see so many people using TWC I felt like they were the most underused unit in 6th and I love them to bits. Vehicles did get a little bit of a boost but the glancing to death I feel was their major weakness to begin with. None the less I still run a whirlwind and LF pack against horde armies like orks, etc to again, provide more difficult target choices.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

I would rather keep this discussion to strictly current codex units, as opposed to Forge World. ...

 

I'm even willing to expand this discussion to suitable allies....

 

Kasper, this isn't your thread; you are welcome to ignore the discussions of Forge World units, or other options as you wish, but Brother Karack is free to lead this effort as he sees fit.

 

V

 

 

I didn't say this was my thread, I said I would "rather" keep this thread/discussion to codex units. It was just a suggestion for some of us who are just starting out and attempting to use our hard earn cash wisely and not splurge on FW or even other army codexes. Sorry if I made it sound like I'm dictating how this thread should go, believe me it was not my intention.

 

 

The only overall concern I'd have is keeping other players informed as far as what a unit is capable of, as compared to not knowing and then being potentially taken by surprise when that unit starts to do unexpected things in game.  The better informed gamer is, well, better informed.

 

I agree that forgeworld options should be included in this conversation because in this edition I feel they're more viable than they ever were before. However for someone like myself and newer players who have never experienced the more serious tournament playing scene or stacked lists, this edition is intimidating because people are now starting to look more at the FW options.

 

I don't want to be spending that kind of money right now and I know there's a large group of people unable to do the same. I heard somewhere they were eventually going to merge forgeworld with GW all together to get rid of the seperation, did anyone else hear that?

 

Either way, I think LF's are still usable but this is the age of providing multiple strong targets to your opponent to make it difficult to choose which one he/she should target. I'm thrilled to see so many people using TWC I felt like they were the most underused unit in 6th and I love them to bits. Vehicles did get a little bit of a boost but the glancing to death I feel was their major weakness to begin with. None the less I still run a whirlwind and LF pack against horde armies like orks, etc to again, provide more difficult target choices.

 

TWC, with TH (if any, how many SS's?)

 

Hm, let me do a copy paste of the growing list...

 

Anti Armor Units:

Predator Annihilator (Sponsons vary, likely LC)

TLLC Dreadnought

TLAC Pair Dreadnought (Light armor and transport hunter)

Long Fangs w/ LC's

WG w/ TH/SS,

Meltabomb Scouts

Storm Eagle with Dual TLLC Wing Mounts

Astartes Stormwing Formation TLLC on each

Grey Hunters with two Melta guns (optional Plasma Pistol)

Swift Claws with Melta gun and Multi-melta Attack Bike

Land Raider Phobos with dual Twin-linked Lascannon and pintle-mounted Multi-melta

Land Speeder Tornado with Multi-melta (or even dual Multi-meltas)

Wolf Guard pack with Combi-meltas

Wolf Scout pack with Melta gun and Plasma Pistol

Lone Wolf with Chainfist/Thunder Hammer

CML TDA WG (attach or keep in starting pack as needed)

CML w/ MM TDA WG?

GH's with MG, WGPL with Combi Melta

Skyclaws with Meltabombs

Swiftclaws with Meltabombs

TWC with TH (SS's to flavor)

Vindicator in a pinch

 

So, quite a long list, I suppose the best way going forward is to consider what exactly the best options are for the list one wants, as far as the choices here are concerned.

 

I'm going to get started on that now, and hopefully be able to compile a post soon about what exactly each does best, and what might best be in combination and support, when dealing with one's local metagame.

 

Hm, time to think.

 

Edit:

 

OP contains the list and the data points I think are most relavent thus far.  Feedback always welcome.

[viddar]

Personally I rely on three units to handle anti armor twc, dreads in droppods, and missle launcher long fangs. That said I think people tend to forget about krak grenades which work well.

[battle captain corpus]

I'd be looking at Long Fangs with 5 Lascannons, with Wolf Guard with Cyclone, backed up by twin Lascannon Razorback :D

 

BCC

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So, in this edition do predators rival to LFs on the table top with the new tank rules?