Basic HH Tactics?

[tdemayo]

I'm thinking of beginning a HH army,  How does a Horus Heresy army play?  How are games like or unlike regular 40k?  How is a legion list like or unlike a Space Marine list?  How does this affect list construction and table top tactics?

 

Looking at the legion list, and sample lists on the forum, it appears that the core troops are usually 20-strong units of marines with bolters, supported by heavy squads and special weapon squads of up to 10, other speciality units, and vehicles.  How do these different elements interact in play?  What are the different optimal mixtures, as I aim to build a collection?

[TheRatfink]

I look forward to the replies to this as I'm thinking of dipping my toe into the Heresy.

[tdemayo]

Yeah. I'm most curious about the large tactical squads. I've played 20 man CSM squads in 40k, and they were not too impressive, tending to die to long range fire before reaching bolter range, and being unimpressive at dealing damage. Are tactical squads in 30k different, due to the different price structure, perhaps, or the compensatory benefits of Fury of the Legion?

[Sevatar]

20 man squads start expensive at 150 points for 10. But to get to 20 it is only 250 points. It is common for the Heresy, to reflect the huge numbers - initially pay a premium, then the rest is much cheaper.

 

Tactical squads are solid, if susceptible to templates due to their size.

 

Think of the Legion like Craftworld Eldar - everything is specialised to do a particular role; try and do too many with a unit and you pay a steep price. Support your units.

 

You do NOT have ATSKNF, which is huge. To compensate we buy 10 point vexillas, which allow you to reroll leadership tests.

 

Heresy lists open up in options at 2-2500 in my experience. Lower, at about 1.5 you are up against it, due to the high initial squad costs. But 3000 makes for a great game, as the firepower of the Legion comes into its own.

 

And remember - with the Legion you can do anything, the variety is huge!

 

Hope this helps :)

[TompiQ]

Pretty much what Sevatar said. I am yet to actually play a game of 30k, but from what I've gathered, there's two things to keep in mind: Think big, and think specialized. The points standards seem to double up compared to 40k: 2000 is a rather small game, while 3000 to 4000 equals a "standard" 1.5k or 2k level in normal 40k.

 

All heavy and special weapon squads come without ablative wounds. This means every life is precious. List building seems much deeper in 30k, with more options and a need to really think through how your force interacts and synergizes with its components. The 20 man blobs you mention are much improved if you add apothecaries to them, as for 45 points you grant your 20 men a 5+ fnp. In exchange for moving, they can also elect to fire their bolters twice in one turn (albeit being unable to shoot next run). That's up to 80 bolter shots at once, which can be quite brutal.

 

The best part is that you can go fluffy and still end up with a decent list. The internal balance is much better than for many other codices, and you can theme a list pretty much how you want thanks to "rites of war". These add options and restrictions such as the Armoured Spearhead which allows you to take dedicated Land Raider transports instead of Rhinos, in exchange for everything having to start within a vehicle. Stuff like that.

[Brofist]

I agree with everybody about the internal balance being good, but I think its crazy to say 3000-4000 points is the same as a standard 1500 point 40k game. The amount of units and armor you can bring with that many points is staggering. With expensive troop choices you'll certainly struggle to make a balanced list at 1000 points or less, but between 1500-1850 you can make a good army while making hard decisions about what it does. I play at that point level pretty much exclusively, so don't feel you need to have 3000 points of models to get into 30k.

 

Legion heavy support, elites, and fast attack are pretty economically priced. Once you throw out your mandatory 2 troops and 1 HQ everything opens up. Really your first choice is how to handle those expensive troops choices:

• 20 man blobs with apothacaries
• 10 man mechanized squads in rhinos
• Pride of the legion lists (terminators as troops, 5-10 man tactical squads as troops)
• 10-20 man drop pod armies
• 10-20 man assault vehicle armies

Once you decide on which one of those you're doing, you can synergize the rest of your army around it.

[ImpiousSmart]

I think it maybe comes from the belief that it's only really around 3000pts that you can fit a lot of the toys in - like 2-3 unique units and a lord of war.

 

That isn't always the case, but I think that's relatively common? Ie, a lot of lists want a Primarch (it's such a differentiator to 40K), which usually means 2500-3000 points?

 

Agreed though that you can write lovely lists at 1850, no question.

[SillyDreadnought]

Lords of War in 30k, in case you're worried, can only be 25% of your total points. So if you play lower points games ( below 2500, which is the ideal Points Value for 30k ) you're less likely to see the big monster tanks or Primarchs running around.

[Scribe]

Chaplains rock, mine have won (or prevented the loss in a Tie) every game.

[depthcharge12]

If you want to know how things function I'd recommend to look under 1d4chan 30k army through google and it will tell you how units work and what legion rules are without giving points :) then from there buy the crusade army list from FW.

 

Just about every unit has purpose, some common and better ones include:

 

- Sicaran battle tank

 

- Spartan Land Raider

 

- Contemptor/Mortis dreadnought

 

- Terminator blobs

 

- 20 man tactical squads w/apothecary

 

 

Also depends, what legion are you thinking of doing? Note: 30k lists have an option to pick a rite of war which limits some units but gives buffs to the ones you can take

[Moonstalker]

The 1d4chan article is where I started getting a grasp on 30k stuff when I was starting out.  I think it was actually there that I saw the most apt description of legion lists that I've seen: Craftworld Space Marine.  30k squads are all very specialized (like Eldar aspect warriors) and have to support each other.  The most important thing, though, is after you read any tactics article or take any advice, you playtest with proxies and try things out for yourself.  We're all just strangers on the internet, and 30k is an expensive hobby.  Try before you buy.

 

A few highlights that I'd pass on, though:

 

1. Leadership matters.  There's only 1 unit, outside of special characters, with Ld10 in the list, most are 8 with Ld9 for sergeants, and there is no ATSKNF.  Failing a Ld test can mean losing an entire 20 man squad in a sweeping advance, or having them hit the table edge and just be gone.  Vexillas and other rerolls are important, and special rules like Fearless and Stubborn are priced at a premium.

 

2. Praetors are pretty one-dimensional as far as HQ's go, and are not your go-to choice.  They don't really belong in smaller (<2k) lists because of the commitment you make with them.  Not only are you spending 150+ points on the Praetor and his wargear, but you then have to spend points on getting him into melee where he can actually do something with all his toys.  They can work in those smaller lists, but it's going to mean focusing large parts of your army around them (see: double spartan pride of the legion 2k lists).  This is complicated further by the transport capacity of land raiders/minimum size of terminator squads/superiority of spartans.  Before you know it, your 150+ point beatstick Praetor is costing 700+ points altogether for him, his bodyguard, and his transport.

 

3. Centurions are awesome because Consuls are awesome.  Not all Consuls are created equal, but most of them are bringing something cool to the table that will help your army overall, and they're cheap.  Some highlights:

 

-Chaplains are essentially 15 points cheaper than their listed cost because of their inclusion of a free power weapon, and they will give the squad they're attached to fearless.  This is a huge benefit for ATSKNF-less 30k marines.

-Master of Signal provides unstoppable (IE, cannot fail a Prescience cast or something) shooting bonus for nearby squads + the benefits of augury scanner + night vision and brings a once-per-game bombardment.  The bombardment is a pretty huge deal, the damage from it can break an entire squad.  Or it could scatter way off and do nothing, but it's kind of the cherry on top of his squad buffs.

-Primus Medicae: Sacred Trust is mostly useless, best use of this guy is a cheap HQ fill in that also gives FNP to a terminator squad.

-Forge Lord: Some pretty crazy customization options.  He can be a backfield support unit with a conversion beamer, a cheap wrench monkey to keep your spartan or storm eagle rolling, or a pretty decent melee unit.

 

4. 20 man tactical squads with attached apothecaries are pretty much your bread and butter troops choice because of the low cost per marine and their durability.  They are primarily a shooting unit, but can be converted into a do everything (buy CCWs) or melee (swap bolters for CCWs) unit.  Vexillas are a must except for some Legions that have built-in rerolls.  Common sergeant upgrades: Artificer Armor and Power Axe/Bolt Pistol/Meltabomb or Powerfist/Bolter.  Can be skipped to leave the unit a pure bolter unit, but the flexibility they add is worthwhile.

 

5. Meltaguns < meltabombs (and likewise, combimeltas < meltabombs).  If you're in melta range, you're in charge range, and you're better off with the meltabomb's armorbane because it will still work on units with armored ceramite.

 

6. AV13 all day erry day.  Contemptors-Mortis, Predators, and Sicarans are all great heavy armor units that can give you the fire support you need.  CM's with Lascannons are great anti-air with secondary anti-tank abilities.  The Kheres option still looks great and used to be a shorter-range higher-damage sidegrade to the lascannons, but with the changes to the vehicle damage table in seventh I believe it is now strictly second place.  Predators with their heavy 4 autocannon turret and lascannon sponsons are cheap (they even saw a points drop in the Crusade book) and bring a whole lot of dakka while making very efficient use of your valuable heavy support slots.  Imagine a 13/11/10 superheavy with 9 hull points, 6 lascannons, and 6 autocannons for just 345 points.  Bargain?  Bargain.  No, it's not a 100% accurate comparison, a superheavy has some distinct advantages, but you get the point.  The Sicaran is what a Predator wants to be when it grows up.  Fast, 13/12/12 (suck it, Krak grenades), a heavy 6 rending TL autocannon that ignores jink saves, and lascannon sponsons for 175 points.  Biggest downside is that you can only have one per HS slot.  Suffers a little in seventh with the changes to the vehicle damage table, but still puts out enough firepower to just kill most other units through HP stripping anyway.  Sicaran Venator sees a relative boost as its main gun becomes more valuable for the same reasons - being Ordnance, though, you don't want to bother with sponsons for the Venator.

[Galron]

^{I disagree with a few of those points. Praetors are very useful since they allow access to Rites of War which are very important unless you want to run a generic list. Usually I almost always have Orbital Bombardment or Terror assault and a secondary detachment with generic rules to bring the stuff my RoW wont allow.}

 

^{Moritat is awesome when you are rolling lucky, With a jump pack he can get to where he needs to be and wipe a terminator squad or light vehicle with ease with twin plasma pistols. Not bad for 145 points.}

 

^{Another note for the Primus Medicae- he is also the only way you can get an apothecary into a 20 man squad of assault marines and he has captain stats so he doesn't exactly suck in melee. If I am running the 20 man squad like this I will have my jump pack Praetor along for the ride to take the challenges.}

 

^{Heavy support squads are great. I have learned they cant intercept all reserves but they are still excellent in any meta where you have drop pods coming in. I had a Volkite Culverin squad light up and wipe a very expensive kitted out vet squad the other day thanks to the sgt and his augury auspix thingy. Throw in a master of signal and you are golden, especially if you don't spend half the game shooting intercept fire.}

[MiR]

Preators are not very good, expensive and there only benefit is a RoW.

Also, most RoW DONT ALLOW A MARINE ALLY or any ally at all.

Special Chars like Sevetar, Sigismund, Pollux or many others are great, becouse there offer a unique style of play a RoW and have good stats.

Primus medic you are right in many Squads he is good, becouse you cant take an Apo for it. But dont oversee, that the list of units in the new books is longer where you can put an Apo.

Moritat  is very situative, sometimes he hit like a bomb sometime you cant kill anything. Dont waste him, only his presents can alter the game, even when he does nothing.

[Galron]

I have seen nothing that says you cant have an allied detachment. You use the book force org but you are still allowed primary or secondary detachments at 2k plus. Thus orbital assault and a primary detachment with no RoW. You might have had poor use of your Praetor but the ones I use tend to do well. NNamed chars are obviously better, but sometimes they dont fit in the role needed, meawhile you can equip the Praetor for whatever is needed.

[SillyDreadnought]

On Praetors: You gain access to RoW, Command Squads and an incredibly upgradable Hero who can spearhead all of your attacks with aplomb. A jump pack and a pair of lightning claws, attached to an Assault Squad will make that Squad's hit that much harder. Or a Praetor toting a thunder hammer, iron halo and combi-weapon can sit in your gunline and shoot with the best of them, -and- give you a punch when something nasty hits your line. Or you can go all-out character killer with a Paragon Blade or Thunder Hammer, terminator plate, iron halo, archaeotech pistol, digital weapons and more.

 

They have their uses in all lists. The examples I've given above are just a very small slice of what's possible. The intent of the Praetor, from a list-building element, is to be a highly customizable character who can go into any fight and come out with a bunch of heads. From a fluff side, they're there to let you make your own Sigismund, Sevatar, Abbadon. Your own mighty heroes.

 

 

But don't dismiss them as 'too expensive' in a game designed for points sizes where such a character would be a very small part of your points investment. For the smaller points games, go for the Centurion with his specializations and solid low points value and profile.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

I disagree with a few of those points. Praetors are very useful since they allow access to Rites of War which are very important unless you want to run a generic list.

 

That's the thing.  You only bring him for RoW, because all he is otherwise is a one-dimensional beatstick.  He's a dog that knows only one trick: get into melee and hit things until they stop moving.  And at that, he isn't even all that good.  Consider these two units, a modestly upgraded Terminator Squad and a Praetor with what I believe is the most common loadout.

 

Praetor

-Cataphractii, Paragon Blade, Digital Lasers, Combibolter

170

 

Terminator Squad

-Cataphractii, Power Fists, Combibolters

200

 

So, the Praetor has 3 wounds at 2+/4++, 5 S5 AP2 attacks that ID on 6's and hit at I5 (and 6 attacks on the charge).  The Terminator Squad has 5 wounds at 2+/4++, any instant death hits (powerfists, lascannons, etc) still only remove one of them where an ID attack against the Praetor could do exactly what it says.  The Terminators get 10 S8 AP2 attacks at I1, and 15 (!) on the charge.  There's also the disparity in bolter fire, but that's not a big deal.

 

Now, outside of things like MCs, Primarchs, and DCCWs, the Paragon Blade is the only AP2 weapon that strikes at Initiative.  You're probably never going to see more than one in a list.  Those 5-6 S5 AP2 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's, are not going to wipe out that Terminator Squad before it gets to swing back at I1.  Generously giving the Praetor the charge, you'll get 4 hits and then 2.333 wounds, then the terminators will fail one of their invuls.  The remaining 4 terminators swing back with 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.333 wounds, your Praetor is going to fail one of them, and then he is dead - double toughed.  Sent into melee, the only thing he has equipment for, and the Praetor loses in one round on average against a squad only a few points more expensive than he is.

 

"But I would never send my Praetor in alone against those kinds of odds!  I'm not stupid!"  You're right, that's only the head to head comparison.  So what about wading into melee against a tactical blob?  Which do you think is more useful?  15 S8 AP2 attacks or 6 S5 AP2?  Bonus round: What strength do you need to defeat the ubiquitous Feel No Pain saves that you see in tactical blobs?  What about killing enemy HQs?  Do you really think you need a 170 point beatstick to kill a Centurion?  Any schmuck with a powerfist can pop a Centurion, and do it reliably because Centurions don't have access to AP2 weapons that strike at initiative.  Fighting Primarchs?  You're better off with the Terminators because a Primarch, with their tendency to have high strength attacks that strike at a very high initiative, will just hit the Praetor first and double tough him before he ever gets a chance to strike.  Not that the Terminators will do very well, either, but they will do better than the Praetor would.  One or two of them might even survive to hit back at I1 and maybe peel a wound off the Primarch before they die in round 2.

 

The Praetor is a burden on your list that you must accept if you want to use a RoW, or bring a command squad for a Fearless bubble.  There is nothing good about him by himself.  You can't equip him 'for whatever is needed.'  He basically has three builds: terminator (as above), artificer (the same, but with iron halo instead of TDA), or jetbike (like artificer, but with a jetbike for built in mobility - pair with a jetbike command squad for a really expensive melee hammer with built-in mobility).

 

You can, of course, just bring a bone-stock Praetor to unlock your RoW, and shove him into a tac squad as just another body.  But you need to be certain you're getting your 100 points worth out of that RoW.  Is it worth paying 100 points just to unlock drop pods?  You'll be 100 points down vs your opponent at the start of the game, plus everything you've spent on drop pods, and you'll be opening yourself up to eating interceptor fire from tactical blobs with augury-apothecaries, and heavy support squads with masters of signal.  With the Iron Hands RoW, it's a little more clear cut - have 5 vehicles?  Take their RoW and you gain 50 points worth of blessed autosimulacras.

 

On that topic.

 

 

 

Also, most RoW DONT ALLOW A MARINE ALLY or any ally at all.

 

 

I have seen nothing that says you cant have an allied detachment.

 

It's listed under Limitations for each RoW.  Head of the Gorgon, Pride of the Legion, The Hammer of Olympia, and Berserker Assault don't allow you to take an allied detachment.  Black Reaving, Orbital Assault, Angel's Wrath, Armoured Spearhead, and Covenant of Fire don't allow you to take a fortification detachment.  Terror Assault, Decapitation Strike, and The Dark Brethren don't allow you to take allies or fortifications.

[SillyDreadnought]

The Paragon Blade is actually the least useful AP2 weapon available to the Praetor. You're better off taking the Thunder Hammer for character hunting, or the Power Fist/Lightning Claw combination for anything else. Additionally, some Legions possess upgrades for their Praetors that no other Legion can get, such as the Iron Father for the Iron Hands, who gains a bonus A8, Ap1 attack, FNP 6+, Battlesmith and the option to take a Cyber-Familliar to make his Iron Halo save ( which you should be getting in any Praetor build ) even better. Or the Warsmith for the Iron Warriors. Both of these Legions should ideally be taking a Praetor with those upgrades to get the full benefit.

 

The Thunder Hammer Iron Father I'm planning can put out 7 S8 ( one of which is Ap1 ) attacks on the turn he charges, survive return attacks with his 2+/3++ and then sweep when he inevitably wins the combat. Combined with his command squad to absorb casualties and tank challenges, he can more often than not remove enough marines from a 20 strong squad to cause them to retreat and get swept.

 

Shame that you completely discount the Jump Pack though, it gives him good movement range and keeps him easy to hide compared to the Jetbike or Terminator plate options, both of which require a bodyguard unit to 'hide' in.

[Moonstalker]

I don't really rate the solo-jump Praetor because he's still too easy to gun down.  The other options, putting him in a footslogging squad or an assault squad, are equally unpalatable.  The former because then he's just moving at the same speed as the rest of them, wasting his jump pack, or the latter because assault squads are grossly overcosted.

 

And yes, some legions get some upgrades that make Praetors a lot better.  Any that can give him a cyberfamiliar for a 2+/3++ are ahead of the game, but I think Salamanders have it best in that they can get a 2+/3++ for their Praetors AND give him EW.  That, plus a thunderhammer or powerfist, makes one very respectable beatstick.  One that might actually work as a solo jump pack HQ.

 

I'm not sure I agree that the Paragon blade is the least useful.  Just one part of a bit of a rock-paper-RNG equation.  If you take a thunderhammer/powerfist, you go last, but you have the potential to one-shot your opponent.  If you take the Paragon blade you might go first, and if you're really lucky get a murderous strike.  But if your opponent brings a Jetbike Praetor, then you may lose the thunderhammer war because he can double tough you and you can't do the same back, while if you had a Paragon blade you could hit first and potentially get a murderous strike... there isn't a single right way forward here, is what I'm getting at.  But Paragon Blade is a safer all-around choice, I think.  Paragon Blade/Powerfist would probably be how I would go personally.  Only five points more than the Paragon/Digital Lasers option, still get +1 attack, and you have the option to swing at double strength/I1 if you need it.

 

But to reiterate from my first post:

 

 

 

Praetors are pretty one-dimensional as far as HQ's go, and are not your go-to choice.  They don't really belong in smaller (<2k) lists because of the commitment you make with them.  Not only are you spending 150+ points on the Praetor and his wargear, but you then have to spend points on getting him into melee where he can actually do something with all his toys.

 

I may have harped a little too hard on the Praetor being bad in my last post, but this is the point I want to get across.  The Praetor only does one thing, and he will not do it well enough to handle, say, a squad of terminators by himself.  If you don't want to field him by himself, then you're going to have a significant points commitment that will detract from the rest of your army's basics.  A Centurion is cheap and with a Consul upgrade will make your 'basics' even better through buffs and USRs.

[Galron]

I disaggree still on the detachment thing. Allies are another legion. Bringing another force org of your same legion isnt an ally and is perfectly legal by the rules.

[hivey]

came up with something funny today: infiltrating land raiders.

 

One of the legion rites of war, armored spearhead, lets you take land raiders instead of rhinos as designated transports. D-transports gain the infiltrate rule if the unit they are bought for has it and they deploy inside it. Alpha legion rule gives you the option to give your whole army (at least the units with the special rule 'legions astartes') infiltrate. So alpha legion armored spearhead = infiltrating land raiders!

[Moonstalker]

I disaggree still on the detachment thing. Allies are another legion. Bringing another force org of your same legion isnt an ally and is perfectly legal by the rules.

 

Incorrect.  You use the Age of Darkness Force Org for 30k battles, not the Force Org from the main rulebook.  Just as you use the 30k rules for Lords of War, not the Lords of War rules out of the main rulebook.  The Age of Darkness Force Org does not permit multiple detachments as you describe, which is something that applies to 7th ed's Battle-forged armies/Combined Arms detachments.

[Galron]

6th edittion when the book was written allowed two force orgs at 2k+ or allied detachments whenever. This included Age of Darkness forces. Since FW has not yet updated the rules for 7th edition one must assume the rules remain the same in the modern format until FW says otherwise.

[Moonstalker]

6th edittion when the book was written allowed two force orgs at 2k+ or allied detachments whenever. This included Age of Darkness forces. Since FW has not yet updated the rules for 7th edition one must assume the rules remain the same in the modern format until FW says otherwise.

 

Double force org was not allowed with 30k.  The Age of Darkness force org was intended for games of 1501-3000 points, with Apoc for 'considerably larger games (page 184 Betrayal).'  This was changed (page 162 Massacre) to 1750-3000 point games, with a single standard Force Org chart for games of 1749 and lower.  You should also look at the Allies chart on page 185 of Massacre.  Notice anything?  Forces aren't Sworn Brothers with themselves.  They aren't intended to ally with themselves.

 

Rites of War have these limitations in place for a reason, and trying to circumvent them with this multiple detachment nonsense is you trying to have your Terror Assault cake without giving up your Heavy Support ice cream.

[Adra'Melek]

Yeah, Massacre specifically states you don't get multiple Primary detachments over 2000pts.

[Brofist]

I will concede that the Orbital Bombardment ROW has gotten a good buff in 7th edition, but like everybody is saying, most of the time a Praetor is overcosted for what he brings (being a tough melee character).