Basic HH Tactics?

[Forté]

Well that was a fun read.

[Brofist]

Thanks that clears up few things,

 

Starting to see that 30k needs a different approach to list building than 40k. Maybe after few proxy games I'll get better understanding of changes and what makes effective set ups. For troop choices,

 

Barring super heavy and low entries, how is the heavy support choices? The Pred sq looks tempting, but the s8 ap3 wirlwin is really standing out. I was never huge fan of tanks. But they apeaer to player a bigger roll in legion list ATM. Are heavy weapon support sq's worth taking? Or should give in and get some armor.

x10 tactical dudes in a rhino are 50 points less than x20 tactical dudes foot slogging up the field. None of the other troops are as cost effective, so you'll need to decide if you want to fully mechanize, blob up the field, use a ROW, or some combination of those options. Once you've figured out your HQ, x2 Troops, and HQ delivery system, then things finally open up for you. Heavy Support, Elites, and even Fast Attack have some really economical options that help balance the expensive investment. Just don't go crazy with upgrades.

[shaun03]

Thanks I read over that HS thread really nice work.

 

I have 3 proxy list I am trying out. First one was a foot slogging DG using there ROW. I liked but felt a bit slow to me. Played a mission from rule book and another from HH book 1. Was speed was factor in rule book mission, ended up a a lost. The army had it's pros and cons.

 

My other list was NG with 3 Max out Terro sq's and raptors. Using there ROW. Played just like I though it was going to be a mix between BA and sharks, it was brutal list in normal rule book game, I went up agasint a blob guard player. The match was over by turn 3. Really didn't get feel on how they would fight agasint another legion list. The second game was useing a mission from HH book 2 I think. Got a better understand of how a this list works.

 

Playing 1 maybe two matches on Sunday with alpha legion proxy.

 

Furry of legion is with 20 strong is nasty, I under estamated it at first.

 

Only getting in 4 games so far actually liking legion list over 40k. One thing I notice is Volik weapons really stand out, they where a soild investment, and stood out in each of games a played, ( not counting what they did to IG player). I think I might stick with those over plasma.

 

On to sgt is the upgrading to 2+ save worth it? I only did it on my CC build sgt. Where the 2+ would be useful against pw.

[Brofist]

Volkites are better in 40k than in 30k, but they are cheap upgrades. A 2+ sgt upgrade is good and cheap, but I’m with you- they are better for front line units.

 

Re: Basic Tactics

Fury of the legion is fantastic since it lets you front load your shooting. Yes, we get no special weapons, but a x20 man tactical blob can melt units thanks to weight of fire. x80 bolter shots is nasty. I tend to run a single x20 man deathstar, which runs up the board turn 1, pops a fury of the legion on the 2nd turn, and in an ideal situation gets to charge into an enemy turn 3.

 

Footslogging is too slow though. My blob is mostly an anvil for shooting and taking the midfield. You need faster units to grab objectives on corners or the backfield. For this I use a single mechanized rhino for my second troops choice, which works ok. Most legion armies could benefit a lot from a faster attack option- bikes, HQs on bikes, speeders, etc, but none of those have objective secured. Assault marines are just too costly.

 

My work around are AdMech allies- deep striking Thallax (scoring troops) for less cost than a x10 man tactical squad. I’m also going to pick up a Triaros Armored Conveyer so I can mount up x20 tacticals for less cost than a Spartan and bonus cheap scoring unit for my backfield.

 

You should keep posting your observations as you keep playing.

[shaun03]

I haven't look at adding admech. Trying to avoid useing allies for now,.

 

Speed is huge factor I use the ram to boost speed, my 40k armies are fast , so I really notice the lack of speed.

 

After using the alpha legion with row hydra, maybe wasn't best row to pick but was able to use it. I like this legion over the other two.

 

Picking a free upgrade per match is really nice bonus. The uniqe HQ choice that doubles as knock vin assassin, is a really good unit. For cheap price he can sync will the rest of list.

 

Assault units have there place, just depends in row. I more particle to jump packs being BA player. You lose the fury bonus but you gain speed.

[Kilofix]

I run Death Guard Infantry (like 2x20 Tacs and at least 10 TDA) primarily so I'm usually slow foot slogging but I also use Medusas (with and without Phospex) so its not that bad as I can usually still hit armor in the backfield. I deploy my Infantry close to the middle anyway so I don't have that far to go with regards to holding middle Objectives. I also have one Spartan and one Storm Eagle with Melta and Lascannon that push further if I need to.

[Moonstalker]

On to sgt is the upgrading to 2+ save worth it? I only did it on my CC build sgt. Where the 2+ would be useful against pw.

 

I used to think that it was really worth it to kit your tac sergeants out with AA and either power axe/meltabomb or a powerfist, but lately I'm coming around to the viewpoint that you should just leave the squad as a purely ranged unit and spend those points elsewhere.  I can still see the benefits to doing generalist stuff like that and trying to cover all your bases, but I think specialization is cheaper and more effective (spend those points on gear for your terminators instead).  Obviously, if you're doing the bolter for CCW swap (or buying CCWs) and planning to stuff the squad into the biggest melee you can find, those melee upgrades become more worthwhile.  For a squad that's going to be hanging back and pumping out bolter shots, though?  I think I'd pass.

[shaun03]

After playing a few more matches putting AA sq gear for CC it's a lot better than spamming thru out the list. Unless going fluff vet list saving the points is better off. And AA or not there still nasty cc units that will eat the sgt alive. Prmarch and red butchers and death shrouds.

 

Not counting primarchs, what LOW are giving the greater return for there points. Some seem so costly there limited room for tjem in 2000-3000 point games. Still don't understand how 40k thunderhawk comes out to be cheaper than 30k does.

 

The typhoon siege tank is somthing I been eyeing up for awhile has any one else feild it? And is worth investing in it?

 

Any alpha legion players out there? Have few specific questions and don't to clog up this thread as geard to all legions.

Last question a shot in dark but does anyone have time line on when BA is going to appear in HH.

[hivey]

i play alpha legion.

 

typhon, ive not used yet, but im thinking it would be a good vehicle. only 350pts for AV14 all around, and a S10 AP1 7" blast that ignores cover. can potentially wipe out a full terminator squad with one shot.

[shaun03]

yeah its cheap and dropping that S10 plate will destroy anything it touches. Going to use a  proxy for few games and see if will be good fit for the list i am running.

 

In regards of alpha legion how exactly does the traitor trait work, can't think of the name off hand, the one that lets you pick a unique unit from another legion list and lets you field it as your own.  Or am i getting that wrong? And is there some references foalting around as i am  looking for painting ideas, not a huge fan of the metallic colors, doesn't fit the hole stealth theme in my opinion. 

[hivey]

for painting, do whatever you want. even says in their fluff that they used many different schemes.

 

that rite lets you do what you said. you take an extra tactical, assault, or breacher squad, as well as the usual two needed, and you get to take a unique unit from another legion as elites. units like gal vorbak, iron havocs, gorgon terminators, ashen circle. those kinds of units.

[shaun03]

Thanks for clearing up the row.

 

Just need to decide if I going red brothern or deathshroud. Although iron Havocs with ML would be really cheap AA.

[Galron]

Its a little behind but this forum doesn't move much so I'll add it anyway.

Tac squads. I have found that minimally equipping the sergeant for utility is important and highly beneficial. I always give my tac sarge's combi-meltas and melta bombs and rarely do they not make their minimal upgrade points back. For example last game I played, my two sargeants for my drop podded tac squads took out a land raider and a drop pod with their combi-meltas and a charging dreadnought with a thrown melta bomb(6 penned and a 6 for damage). Those kills were lucky, I will admit, but 15 points is easily made back up and the force multi-plier that add is excellent. Just the lone drop pod kill justified the add-on items for them both, not to mention stopping him from getting Linebreaker points.

 

Assault Squads- Does anyone use them? I have fielded two groups of 19 on several occasions and while they did ok, I didn't notice anything stellar about their performance. The extra bodies definitely helped in all but one case. I find though I am forced to bring jump pack primus medicae consuls to truly take advantage of their numbers(although the Night Lord perk definitely helps once they arrive) and that is a very expensive tax. Being consuls though, having the captain level character helps in close combat, even if you just give them a simple power sword. HoW with 20 guys is truly entertaining. Any equivalent armored squad they hit is likely going to go away.

 

Tac Support Squad- These are the staples of my drop pod army and rarely fail me. I use a squad of plasma standard. Typically I will lose a guy to over heating but rarely to they not kill what I need them to kill. I never bother with an apothecary, with the limited number of guys in the squad, the odds of that one or two attempts of feel no pain aren't worth the points and I would rather use them for another plasma guy.

 

Flamers- I never realized the utility of a bare bones flamer guys in a drop pod. The whole 6 inches of movement after the pod lands is really nice, both to stop a charge and to fry a unit up. Again, it was a lucky game but my simple five man, I am bringing them for the extra drop pod, 135 point squad dropped next to a recently DS'd deathwing squad and proceeded to wipe the squad out in one volley.

 

Melta- One would think they were a no brainer for a drop pod squad but while I tend to use them still, I have not been too impressed with them overall. They suffer badly from one-shot-itus and if they don't kill their target in the first volley, they tend to die. I have noticed this over multiple games now and have yet to have this squad survive a game. Now yes they usually(not always) strip hull points from things. Their guns say the odds of this are in their favor. Maybe my squad is just unlucky because I haven't painted them yet(I paint units based on merit status and the flamers after last game have jumped to the top of that list). Does anyone else who uses this squad have this problem?

[Brofist]

Regarding assault squads, I feel its safer and cheaper to grab a dreadclaw and cram it full of terminators or regular old tacticals with CCWs. It’s only 10 bodies, but you’re basically guaranteed a charge on your terms turn 2 with no standing around getting shot for a turn. It costs significantly less than 20 assault marines too, which is pretty humorous.

 

FW really dropped the ball with the assault squad balance.

[Galron]

Unfortunately you are correct I think. I only have limited use of the dreadclaw and I guess its rules have been updated since Massacre , but even then we weren't playing it correctly(thinking all vehicles can ram, like the Caestus Ram, which I am more used to) I used it to ram an enemy drop pod. Both of us thought the results were pretty cinematic and cool, like the Nephalim fighter that was shot down and crashed directly on Curze one game, and he simply walked out of the flames like the Terminator.

 

Assault squads need to be at least 50 points cheaper base. I still think in horde formation with other targets they have their place, especially in a NL list where you have other jump pack guys, a lot of close fire support guys like Terror squads DPing in or infiltrating close to the targets.

 

Destroyer Squads: Anyone use them? I have fielded full squads a few times and they are a hard squad to make work, especially if they do not have a Moritat attached to them. Both times they have been killed off almost to the man and while they did kill things, they served better as bullet sponges for the character who is a massive threat with his twin plasma pistols(you aren't using two? Whats wrong with you?). They just don't do much with bolt pistols, they are nothing special in hand to hand, they missile launchers are nice but again, we have quite a few sources of AP3 out there. Jump packs make them much more mobile and they can keep up with the Moritat, but definitely do not justify almost the almost 400 points they cost. I am wondering if these guys would be useful with no jump packs inside of a Storm Eagle or a Ram.

[Brofist]

Outside of Tactical Squads or Pride of the Legion Terminators for troops, we don't have many economical troops options. I think of it as a tax we pay up front to make up later with cheap elites and heavy support options. The support squads are also pretty good.

 

I'd like assault squads to drop in points, have an extra attack, or some combination of the two. Right now they just don't make any sense when you can have more attacks or better mobility for equal or better points cost.

[caprera]

If you need to tarpit an enemy because 15 of them are still reasonable and they still have DS so you can take out a single enemy squad like heavy support or rapiers.

[Naryn]

What are good ways to kit out Tactical Support Squads?  I've been thinking of adding a ten-man plasma squad to help deal with the prevalence of terminators in 30k, but I've been struggling to find the right balance.  That's more than two predators, and I'm not sure I'm willing to make that kind of a commitment to it.  Thoughts on the squads, or on other cheap AP2?

[Galron]

I usually field 5 or 6 man plasma squads for exactly that purpose. They do well and then they die due to the threat they bring. I field melta squads as well, they do ok, took out a knight last game in a single volley, but the game before they couldnt even put a glancing hit on a Land Raider at point blank. Like the plasma, they do ok, then they die. I have really been impressed by plain old flamer teams. They do amazing damage, even to terminator squads just by inflicting mass wounds. I dropped four termies in a volley last game and a full squad of deep striking deathwing the game before that. Flamer guys usually last longer as most opponents dont see them as as much of a threat.

[Brofist]

I used to run 6-7 with plasma guns and an apothecary inside a rhinio. The key was the apothecary's augury scanner, which basically turned them into a 24" deep strike prevention bubble. They are really fragile though and I would keep them pretty far away from actual threats. For their points they didn't actually make sense as a back field interdictor.

 

For cheap AP2 I'm a big fan of predator executioners. For about half the price of the support squad you get 36" range, interceptor, and AP2. If you add lascannon sponsons it gains utility, but is less cost effective. Another option is the dual plasma pistol consul. He only has 2 wounds, but he costs less for about the same level of firepower (albiet with poor range). 

[Naryn]

Executioner is a good idea.  I was thinking of running two auto/las preds and one executioner, but i think i might spring for the points to take another or all as executioner.  Considering the volume of Terminators that can be put out in 30k games, i'm definitely seeing the value.

[Slips]

Aye, getting AP2 is a good Idea. 

 

I think one of the better Terminator Erasers is the Dual Plasma Pistol Moritat Consul that Bulba Mentioned. If RNGesus Favors you, you could non-stop shoot until Gets Hot! Kills you or there are no more terminators left.

 

As For Volume of Terminators, Consider my 3500pt list that I'm Bringing to a HH Campaign : 25 Terminators, 5 with Storm Shields (LA:IF), PrImus Medicae in Terminator Armor with a Storm Shield & Sol Glove.

 

Not to mention I'm bringing 10 PA units that all have Artificer Armor : Sigismund, Primus Medicae with Sol Glove and AA, 7 Templar Brethren + Sol Glove.

 

Thats 36 Units with a 2+ save and almost all of them have a 3/4++ Invuln Save and they all have FNP to boot.

 

So yeah, Investing into reliable AP2 Is a REALLY good idea in the HH. If you cant, invest into volume of fire. if you shoot 40+ shots into a terminator blob, there are bound to be casualties due to statistical probability.