Help please IA: Canen Beligeratore

[Furious Retreat]

Hi

 

I finished reading Betrayer and the urge to do a loyalist chapter created from World Eater gene seed has been born.

 

The obvious;

1) very subtle.  I'm thinking the name of the chapter should be the only indication of this  If not, what other subtle indications can I use?

2) the 21'st cursed founding?

3) based on the Blood Angels codex, so this project might go slow until the new BA codex is out.

 

I've semi chosen a name, the Canen Beligeratore  / Dog Warriors(1).

An alternative to that would be Imperium Canen Beligeratore / Imperial Dog Warriors(2)?

option 1 / 2?

 

 

I've had some thoughts to gene seed flaws.  in the case of the chapters gene seed maturing slower than normal, 10 & 15 years instead of the normal 5 & 10 years, would the A M give the chapter leeway with their gene seed tithe or would they insist on their tithe to the detriment of the chapter.  

If you consider that as a potential 21'st founding chapter the M A might never use the gene seed to found another chapter would they still insist on their full tithe?

 

Still not sure how I am going to represent the Red thirst and Black rage.  Ideas welcome.

 

Thanks and regards

 

 

[Olis]

The obvious;

1) very subtle.  I'm thinking the name of the chapter should be the only indication of this  If not, what other subtle indications can I use?

I think, perhaps, it should be reflected in the tactics and iconography that the chapter uses, rather than the name itself. Whomever authorised the naming of the chapter either wouldn't be aware of the gene-seed, in which case an unassuming name would be used, or they would wish to keep the use as a secret, which also means a name which isn't obvious to those who would look too hard.

 

That said, I don't see why you couldn't skirt the edges of plausibility here. After all, it is just a name. Maybe, as a distant tie in to the word 'hound', you could name them the 'Persecutors'? Or how about a name that involves the word 'Stalkers'?

 

 

2) the 21'st cursed founding?

 

I would advise making it the 13th (Dark) Founding instead - it is this particular founding, unique amongst all others, that the gene-seed records were not kept. It would be the perfect time to create a chapter from gene-seed of suspicious origins.

 

3) based on the Blood Angels codex, so this project might go slow until the new BA codex is out.

As far as the usual codices go, the Blood Angels codex seems to be the most likely candidate to represent this sort of chapter. The only other thought would be a Black Templar style force from the 6th edition Space Marine codex.

 

I've had some thoughts to gene seed flaws.  in the case of the chapters gene seed maturing slower than normal, 10 & 15 years instead of the normal 5 & 10 years, would the A M give the chapter leeway with their gene seed tithe or would they insist on their tithe to the detriment of the chapter.

If you consider that as a potential 21'st founding chapter the M A might never use the gene seed to found another chapter would they still insist on their full tithe?

 

Still not sure how I am going to represent the Red thirst and Black rage.  Ideas welcome.

Personally, I would say drop the mutations to the gene-seed idea. Partially because of my suggestion to change the founding from the 21st to the 13th but also because it seems that everyone wants to give their chapter a flaw or a mutation of some kind. I'd humbly suggest bucking the trend by not actually having a flaw. Instead, focus on the chapter's outlook and actions - what they do and say - not on what they are.

[Harlan Skorus]

Olisredan has covered most of what I could think of - I will only add a couple of bits.

 

1. Using World Eaters geneseed is well and good - not personally my thing, but hey, it's your Chapter. The one thing I would suggest to consider is: why? What prupose did the High Lords or whoever have in mind when they commissioned this? Thinking about this may lead towards a wider idea of the direction the Chapter was intended to, or has, taken.

 

2. Forming a Chapter of the Emperor's Most Glorious and Revered Space Marines just to name them dogs seems a little odd. Olisredan's onto something when he mentions Hounds.

 

3. On the full tithe - why would the AM want any less? It is not just for the creation of new Chapters (which would still be a possibility to the AM, as they wouldn't know about the timeline of universe grinding to a halt at 999.999.M41), but also for monitoring purity - which might be extra important, giving their dubious origins.

 

4. Speaking as someone who has little grasp on the current rules and primarily haunts this board for fluff over crunch, fit the rules to the Chapter and not the Chapter to the rules. That kind of consideration can come afterwards, and will make things a little less forced.

[Furious Retreat]

thanks gents

Will take most your suggestions and work it into my basic framework.  I'll work on it for a few days and post it up.  

 

"but also because it seems that everyone wants to give their chapter a flaw or a mutation of some kind"  You are correct, its the done thing.  The traits for the Red thirst and Black rage can be justified within the chapters indoctrination, training methodology or tactics, without having to resort to the cliched gene seed flaw.  Thanks for pointing this out.

 

Just about the only thing I heavily "disagree" with is the remarks about the name of the chapter.

 

I'm a used to read Raymond E Feist,  One of the armies mentioned in the novels are the Keshian Dog soldiers (Really tough SOBs). For some reason when I read Betrayer my mind made a link to the Keshian dog soldiers.  I would like to bring some of that into my chapter (at the least into the recruitment phase for the chapter)

"2. Forming a Chapter of the Emperor's Most Glorious and Revered Space Marines just to name them dogs seems a little odd. Olisredan's onto something when he mentions Hounds" 

Possibly we also have a difference in perception here.  I'm a dog person, I have 3 dogs, a boxer bitch, and 2 great dane, bull mastiff crosses (different litters).  For me to call the chapter Dog Warriors entails traits like, loyalty and ferociousness, working together as a team etc, but I understand your point as well.  I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Once again thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm a used to read Raymond E Feist, One of the armies mentioned in the novels are the Keshian Dog soldiers (Really tough SOBs). For some reason when I read Betrayer my mind made a link to the Keshian dog soldiers. I would like to bring some of that into my chapter (at the least into the recruitment phase for the chapter)

"2. Forming a Chapter of the Emperor's Most Glorious and Revered Space Marines just to name them dogs seems a little odd. Olisredan's onto something when he mentions Hounds"

Possibly we also have a difference in perception here. I'm a dog person, I have 3 dogs, a boxer bitch, and 2 great dane, bull mastiff crosses (different litters). For me to call the chapter Dog Warriors entails traits like, loyalty and ferociousness, working together as a team etc, but I understand your point as well. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Ah Great Kesh.. I remember it well!

The trouble you have with using something like "Dog Soldiers" is that your article will be read by a great variety of people and many of them will have no idea about what your mind sees when using words like "dog".

From a purely aesthetic - if that can apply in this instance (I haven't slept so I don't know) - "dog" is far too an abrupt and harsh-sounding word, whereas "hound" rolls off the tongue more easily. It would be like singing in Latin and then half way through you drop in something out of a guttural langauage like German (sorry to pick on the Germans!).

Equally, if you were to use "hound" this could reference the Warhounds of old - i.e. the pre-Angron World Eaters.

[Furious Retreat]

Juan

 

Hound would be too contentious, too close to the War Hounds / World Eater.  The alternative could be to go the space shark route and only referring to the chapter as the Canen Beligeratore? (Dog Warriors in latin)

 

Having said that my chapter are hive / city fight specialist - WW2 reference Warsaw / Stalingrad etc.  So the name Dog Warriors could be seen to convey their dirty, ruthless, no nonsense type of fighting style.  I am still undecided.

 

Funny how the process works, my starting point for this IA was the name and I built my basic framework around it.  I've started filling out some of the basic framework and now the name of the chapter no longer "fits" as well as it did.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

 

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Actually it depends how you integrate the word "hounds":

 

Hounds of ______

 

Iron Hounds

 

Stone Hounds

 

Obsidian Hounds (I suggest the word 'obsidian' to go with most things!)

 

That said, your Chapter name wouldn't have anything to do with the rest of the Chapter generally as they possess a name before they ever have belief or a mode of operating so you do have a lot of leeway.

 

As an aside, whilst "Space Sharks" is diculous, "Carcharadons Astra" is only marginally better. Most Latinized (I think I just made that up) names do not sound any better than the English equivalent.

[Olis]

Okay, so 'Dog' seems to be a strong preference to you. 'War Dogs' would've been a suitable suggestion from me if but for the fact that the gene-seed comes from a legion that used to be called the War Hounds... not exactly subtle, really. The same goes for 'Dogs of War' too. Simply not subtle enough. So what else is there?

Devil Dogs? Still not great as there is an Imperial Guard tank called this.

Dog Fighters? Kinda crude sounding... but I like it. Brings mental images of battles for air supremacy and brutal blitzkrieg assaults. It definitely benefits coming from a known phrase.

Erm... besides those, I'm out of suggestions involving the word 'Dog'. As far as Latin names go, I would put forward Canis Bellatores. Grabbed it from google translate.

Edit: I've had a second glance now at 'Dog Fighters'. It's a naff name. Ignore it.

[Harlan Skorus]

 

Possibly we also have a difference in perception here.  I'm a dog person, I have 3 dogs, a boxer bitch, and 2 great dane, bull mastiff crosses (different litters).  For me to call the chapter Dog Warriors entails traits like, loyalty and ferociousness, working together as a team etc, but I understand your point as well.  I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Just in case it's worth clarifying: I have nothing against Dogs themselves, I was more getting at Dogs generally being an unfavorable/mercenary term in a military context. :P But we can certainly agree to disagree if you want to stick with it.

 

Something something mastiffs? Online thesauruses are always useful for coming up with words if you do want to edit the title - lots of good sounding synonyms for ruthless, for example. Dogs Malevolent/Canis Malevolis? I'm not even sure where you're at with this convo, so forgive me if the above is redundant.

[Teetengee]

Molosse is a French word for dogs of a larger scarier type.

[Furious Retreat]

Thanks all for your input.  I've had to concentrate on work for a bit, but I've managed a reboot.

I've attempted to use most of the the input I received in the previous posts. 

The below is by no means the final draft, at most its somewhat expanded bullet points.

I'm also doing a few different conversions at the moment, which might influence the IA if they pan out.

(Anyone know how to change the topic to IA: Ferus Belligeratore?)

 

 

Ferus Belligeratore (The Wild Warriors)    

1. Basic Information

Founding Legion: Unknown

Primarch: Unknown

Founding: unknown - suspected 13'th Founding, early in M36

Chapter Master: Lev Kirill

Segmentum: Ultima

Home System: Sanctificatio (Sanctuary) (non Imperial designation, location unknown)

Home World: Arcem (Stronghold) (non Imperial designation, location unknown) 

Fortress-Monastery: Burgas Spes (Castle Hope) (non Imperial designation, location unknown)

Descendants: unknown

Specialty: assault and close quarter battle specialists 

Main Colours: Emerald Green, Brown and silver

Battle Cry:  Forged in battle, Tempered in war

Chapter Creed: Loyalty, Honour, War

Strength: unknown

 

2. Overview

The Ferus Balligatore or Wild Warriors, are a secretive chapter, that first appear in Imperial records early in M36.

The Ultramarine central files on Macragge verify that a 10 man Ultramarine training cadre was sent, in early M36, to train the Ferus Belligeratore chapter.  No mention is made of the founding date or number in the Ultramarine records.   

Imperial records for that period, describe the Chapter as a fleet based, codex adherent chapter, crusading along the Centaurus Arm of the Galactic Spiral.

Shortly before the Age of Apostasy the Chapter was nearly destroyed in a Black Legion attack .  The chapter fleet was lured into the tail end of a warp flare, by a Black Legion warband.  The warp flare destroyed almost a third of the chapter fleet.  While the chapter was still regrouping, it was attacked by the Black Legion warband.  The chapter managed to fight off the Black Legion Warband, but the cost was high. 

The chapters 1'st, 2'nd and 3rd companies were decimated. The majority of the chapters senior librarians perished in the battle.  

In addition a large portion of the chapters stored gene seed was taken in a daring raid on the chapters battle barge.

Unconfirmed reports place Fabious Bile at the raid on the chapters gene seed.  This has lead to speculation within the chapters that the warp flare was not natural and that the Black Legion attack was just a distraction for the raid of the chapters gene seed.

 

After the attack the chapter held a investigation of the period before the warp flare and the Black Legion attack. The investigation concluded that intelligence about the chapter was leaked to the Black Legion.  Several unauthorized and non standard encoded vox messages from several of the the Imperial Navy escort ships were found to have been sent.

 

Upon pressing the issue these Imperial navy ships slipped their moorings and escaped into the warp, with the chapter giving chase. (The whole "investigation" portion is to provide the reasons for the chapters distrust of other Imperial organisations and the start of their more secretive persona, still to be expanded upon)

 

The chapter was not seen again till well after the Age of Apostasy.  The chapter had been believed as either lost or destroyed until its reappearance. The chapter returned as a much changed organization.  It is a much more secretive  and refuses to provide the location of its home system and planet. 

 

It has an inherent distrust of other Imperial organizations and institutions. The chapter had taken the tumultuous time of the Age of Apostasy to not only rebuild the chapter strength but to find a home system and planet. The chapter designate their home system as Sanctificatio, and their homeworld as Arcem.  Translated from high gothic as Sanctuary and Stronghold. Their fortress monastery is designated as Burgas Spes.

 

Since their return the chapter has been active in most of the mayor conflicts that has beset the Imperium. The chapter has earned a growing reputation for loyalty, honor and utter ferociousness in war.  

 

Organization

varied and unique hq units

The current strength of the chapter is not known.  The F B seem to be operating at less than the 1000 marine limit. At any given time the F B only field 4 battle Co's, with 6 under strength support companies dispersed among the four companies.

 

Chapter veterans are spread equally between all five companies, providing a solid core of combat experience, leadership and training as required.

The Ferus Belligeratore have almost no squad or company markings, making an accurate estimate even more difficult.

Despite not having access / good relationships with the MA the chapter has the ability to field landraiders in great numbers. - why / how

The chapters also has accesss to fast vehicles / tanks gladiator type competition for entry into the DC equivalent apoth & chaplains part of chapter command

 

long lived

ferocity

loyalty

 

belief system warrior based belief system, with the emperor as the ultimate example of a warrior, skill ability balanced out by more human virtues

The Ferus Belligeratore make no reference to a primarch, they revere the Emperor as their ultimate father / creator.  Believe that the Emperor will return from the Golden Throne if his empire is safe / he is no longer needed on the G T,

Imperium must strive to drive off Xenos,  chaos make his realm safe, so he can return from the GT. (another reason to distrust Imperial organisations that do no do their utmost [in the chapters eyes]to ensure this)

 

(code of the samurai / bushido = equivalent [to tame the more violent tendencies of the W B gene seed])

 

Ferus Belligeratore can be very disapproving of any Imperial organization they perceive as not doing their utmost to make the Emperors realm safer.

 

Gene seed

 

The Wild Warriors gene seed are stable and the Mechanicus Adaptus reports that it is extremely pure.

The chapter has no known descendants. 

The chapters secretiveness has made it extremely unlikely that the MA will use their gene seed in the creation of new chapters. & MA inability to trace the chapters gene seed in its records

 

(built a a gene seed buffer whilst missing in the Age of Apostasy, or would the MA insist on their missing tithe for the last x hundred years?)

Despite the purity of their gene seed, when the individual marines within the chapter are compared to each other there seems to be a large discrepancy in size and build.

 

The norm for most space marine chapters is that the marines appearance are quite standardised.  Generally they  tend to look the same and be more or less the same size and build.

 

This is not the case with the F B.  There is a large disparity in build and appearance within the chapter.  Some of the marines are taller and more slender whilst others are much larger and bulkier than the norm for the chapter and in fact for space marines in general. (mostly put this in as I have a few conversion ideas for no GW products)

 

[Teetengee]

I don't think they could get away with openly having a secret homeworld (i.e. if the imperium suspected they have one, they would not be able to keep the where secret.) Also I doubt any chapter could participate in most of the major conflicts in the imperium.

[Furious Retreat]

Teetengee 

 

Thanks. "I don't think they could get away with openly having a secret homeworld "  In retrospect I agree, I'll edit this out in the next draft.

"Also I doubt any chapter could participate in most of the major conflicts in the imperium" - lazy writing on my part, wanted to show that they were active and had a growing reputation.  Will have to find a more effective way of showing this.

Any ideas regarding this?

:could the chapter have built a a gene seed buffer whilst missing in the Age of Apostasy, or would the MA insist on their missing tithe for the last x hundred years?

 

regards

[Teetengee]

My impression of the politics and records keeping of the imperium would seem to be that they might be able to get away with the lack of geneseed tithe over those years, perhaps by simply being forgotten, or perhaps by slowly making up the difference. Although, in the grimdark that is the far future, I generally expect that if it can go wrong it will, as such they very well might be required to provide the back geneseed.

[Resarys]

It's a fair bit of work, but to show the Chapter's activity and growth, you could establish them in a sector of your own making. You have to come up with your own threats, but with a bit of writing, their history can become as glorious as you want it to be.

 

Or, troll through lists of Imperial crusades and wars, look for some that are nothing but names, and go from there, fleshing out those campaigns with the actions of the Wild Warriors.

 

Further, their Founding date gives the perfect opportunity for a baptism of fire in the Age of Apostasy. While many of the major conflicts during that Age are known, who's to say what happened during the Battle of Karus, or the ill-fated Second Purge of the Ever-blighted Stars?