Raeven Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 So with units that are CtA with each other you cannot deploy within 12". Do you think this should include deep striking, such as with drop pods? I know daemon conjuring is a special exception. What about other methods of deploying, such as from reserves? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Page 162 still states that models "deploy" when arriving from reserves. Page 127 uses the term "deploying for battle" when describing Come the Apocalypse. One could make the case that they mean the deployment phase before turn one when they refer to "deploying for battle", however they do not directly refer to the deployment phase, but the act of deploying. As Deep Strikers deploy when they arrive, strict RAW results in them being unable to deploy with 12" of a Come the Apocalypse unit. Which could be interesting in the event of scatter... I would imagine that the interpretation of "deploying for battle" referring to the deployment phase is probably correct in terms of RAI because: - You are allowed to deploy via deep strike within 12" of an enemy unit - The implications for Deep Strike Mishaps as a result of scattering within 12" and being "unable to deploy" seem a little silly. I'm interested to see what some of our other regulars think though... it's an interesting subject. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3710802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 I don't think you can control scatter, so that wouldn't be a disqualifier for deployment. You would just have to set your initial deep strike position outside of the 12" range. If you scatter withn, so be it. Just hope you aren't in 6" and have to worry about the one eye open rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3710826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Well the restriction is they cannot deploy within 12" of each other when *they* are deploying. If one unit is arriving from reserves, while it is deploying, the units already on board have already deployed. I think the restriction is only in place when two CtA units are being deployed at the same time. Edit: But would still hold if two CtA were arriving from reserves turn 2 together for example. I'd even go so far as to say that a drop pod scattering within 12" of another CtA drop pod arriving the same turn would suffer a mishap. It's scatter into an area it's not allow to be deployed into. Conversely, I'd say the first unit out of the two would have deployed just fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3710847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Yep, looks like RAW is you have to start outside 12" and hope you don't scatter into 6". p.135 states "players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later" but since p.162 says that arriving from reserves is deploying... e; that isn't how I read the "they" in that sentence. The fact that "they" (units with CtA alliance level) can't deploy within 12" of each other when deploying for battledoesn't mandate that both units involved hate to be deploying at the time, surely? If you have a unit with CtA trying to deploy within 12" of another unit with the same alliance level, this seems to me like it meets the somewhat vague sentences' criteria. There's no basis in anything I can see on p.162 for extrapolating a mishap for deep striking within 12" of CtA allies; it very specifically lists the circumstances under which mishaps occur. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3710860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 "but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" The whole sentence is plural. If they are not deploying at the same time, then they are not deploying within 12" of each other. One would be deploying within 12" of the other. As for the DS, the CtA rules would make within 12" an impossible place to deploy. Much like impassable terrain. Which forces a mishap. If you try to land a Drop Pod in an area when it is not allow to land, what happens? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3710900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I do like the point about "they" it makes sense (to me at least) and pushes the interpretation towards the RAI (as I see it). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3710907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 "but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" The whole sentence is plural. If they are not deploying at the same time, then they are not deploying within 12" of each other. One would be deploying within 12" of the other. As for the DS, the CtA rules would make within 12" an impossible place to deploy. Much like impassable terrain. Which forces a mishap. If you try to land a Drop Pod in an area when it is not allow to land, what happens? True, but what is the plurality referring to? Multiple units deploying at the same time, or the two factions that are CtA with each other. Either one is a legitimate reading. I thought we had decided a long time ago that scatter was different than the action that caused it? Just like a weapon can scatter beyond the limit of its range, you aren't choosing to deploy within 12". So if you scatter within that range when deep striking, there isn't a lot in the rules that points to a mishap, is there? Merged double post, Dam13n. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3710966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I thought we had decided a long time ago that scatter was different than the action that caused it? Just like a weapon can scatter beyond the limit of its range, you aren't choosing to deploy within 12". So if you scatter within that range when deep striking, there isn't a lot in the rules that points to a mishap, is there? So, the rule of common sense from there would be that a non-summoned unit must have its initial starting position such that if it did not scatter, no part of it would be within 12" of its "Allies"? As a House Rule till an FAQ says one way or the other, I can work with that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Deploy for battle and deploy during battle are 2 different things, CtA doesnt apply to deploy during battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 So why do you make that distinction? How do the rules support a difference? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 As for scatter, 6th changed the DS rules. You can choose to place your initial position *anywhere*. Including over impassible Terrain / on top of an enemy unit. Initial position doesn't matter a jot for DS eligibility. Only the final after scatter position. If you placed a Drop Pod in open ground, but scatter into impassible terrain, you wouldn't allow that, just because you had no control over the scatter. That same would apply to scattering within 12" of a CtA ally. As that is an *illegal* place for deployment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 So why do you make that distinction? How do the rules support a difference? Cause it doesnt say something about Cta in the edploy during deepstrike thing. This is actually a pointle discussion as this one is all over the place, common sense isnt that hard to use is it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 So why do you make that distinction? How do the rules support a difference? Cause it doesnt say something about Cta in the edploy during deepstrike thing. This is actually a pointle discussion as this one is all over the place, common sense isnt that hard to use is it? Since everyone's sense of what is common seems very different, it's why I asked the question. It'd be nice to know the rules support a single interpretation, instead of leaving it up to various house rules. As for scatter, 6th changed the DS rules. You can choose to place your initial position *anywhere*. Including over impassible Terrain / on top of an enemy unit. Initial position doesn't matter a jot for DS eligibility. Only the final after scatter position. If you placed a Drop Pod in open ground, but scatter into impassible terrain, you wouldn't allow that, just because you had no control over the scatter. That same would apply to scattering within 12" of a CtA ally. As that is an *illegal* place for deployment. That isn't true about Deep Strike. Never was, really. You have to place a single model on the table in it's initial position. This means you can't put it on top of other models. While I don't agree that it is necessarily impassable terrain and should force a mishap, it is a possible legitimate read of the rules. It would definitely limit the options available to armies that shouldn't really be run together in the first place, so in that way it makes sense. Merged double post, Dam13n. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Than suit yourself, what you are doing happens in basicly every forum topic about this subject, the "but but but" thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 That isn't true about Deep Strike. Never was, really. You have to place a single model on the table in it's initial position. This means you can't put it on top of other models. You can now. This is a ridiculous rule change to be honest. In 5th, there was a Deep Strike restriction, where the first mini *had* to be placed in a legal position, then scatter was rolled. For no reason, in 6th and now 7th, that restriction was removed. Check the DS rules. There is no restriction on *where* you place the first mini. You could place them on Impassible terrain, and hope a scatter moves them off. Otherwise they still mishap, of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3711998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 I figured on the table meant, on the table. But if someone wants to intentionally mishap, they are more than welcome to do so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292088-come-the-apocalypse-and-deep-strike/#findComment-3712029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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