Help against Tau

[mcpolle]

Hello fellow brothers, 

 

I am just getting back into 40k, have been away since2/3  edition, or at least when Tau first surfaced, cannot remmeber, was that 4th??, anyways, back in the day, when someone told you they were bringing Tau, it was normally a fluff bunny, or some random dude, who liked the models, but they were in no way competitive, WELL; things seem to have changed.

 

I played only a few games in 6th, so only saw the Ovesa star on You tube, never actually had to play against it, but still played against some nasty Tau stuff, now that 7th has landed, I am wondering how do GK take on Tau??

 

Do we need to ally in some battle Space Marine Brothers, to get access to some GG Centurions, or what is the answer, it seems that Tau, sit back and shoot the Aegis out of our beloved knights.

 

So a little help, if you please Brothers, send me a few pointers, if you have them.

 

My concerns are Broadsides, with a 2+ save, and those horrible Crisis suits, that shoot, soo many shots,and then move away again, also those Riptides are pretty much a menace as well.

 

Thx

 

Polle

[jeffersonian000]

Tau got neutered big time this edition with the restriction on ICs joining MCs. As such, the GK Shunt list, which maximizes GK Interceptors and DreadKnights to push forward and remove Marker Lights early, is one of the best GK lists to field versus Tau. Tau are BS3, die in melee, and Un-buffed Riptides can be ignored for the most part as you clean up the more useful Tau units.

 

SJ

[mcpolle]

Ok, that much i get, but a unit of Broadsides in a Bastion?? What do we do against these, also the Crisis suits?? What to do about these,

 

Thx for the reply.

 

 

Polle

[DinoDoc]

Tau got neutered big time this edition with the restriction on ICs joining MCs. As such, the GK Shunt list, which maximizes GK Interceptors and DreadKnights to push forward and remove Marker Lights early, is one of the best GK lists to field versus Tau. Tau are BS3, die in melee, and Un-buffed Riptides can be ignored for the most part as you clean up the more useful Tau units.

 

SJ

Shunt Punch?

Unlimited Pts - Grey Knights Roster

 

HQ: Grey Knight Grand Master (1#, 260 pts)

1 Grey Knight Grand Master, 260 pts (Blind Grenades; Psychotroke Grenades; Rad Grenades; Psycannon; Nemesis Force Halberd)

 

Troops: Grey Knight Terminator Squad (5#, 230 pts)

1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 230 pts

1 Terminator Justicar (MC Nemesis Daemonhammer)

1 Terminator (Psycannon)

3 Terminators

 

Troops: Grey Knight Terminator Squad (5#, 230 pts)

1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 230 pts

1 Terminator Justicar (MC Nemesis Daemonhammer)

1 Terminator (Psycannon)

3 Terminators

 

Fast Attack: Grey Knight Interceptor Squad (10#, 325 pts)

1 Grey Knight Interceptor Squad, 325 pts (Psybolt Ammunition)

1 Justicar (MC Nemesis Daemonhammer)

1 Grey Knight (Nemesis Daemonhammer)

2 Grey Knights (Psycannon x 2)

6 Grey Knights

 

Fast Attack: Grey Knight Interceptor Squad (10#, 325 pts)

1 Grey Knight Interceptor Squad, 325 pts (Psybolt Ammunition)

1 Justicar (MC Nemesis Daemonhammer)

1 Grey Knight (Nemesis Daemonhammer)

2 Grey Knights (Psycannon x 2)

6 Grey Knights

Heavy Support: Nemesis Dreadknight (1#, 235 pts)

1 Nemesis Dreadknight, 235 pts (Personal Teleporter; Heavy Incinerator)

 

Heavy Support: Nemesis Dreadknight (1#, 235 pts)

1 Nemesis Dreadknight, 235 pts (Personal Teleporter; Heavy Incinerator)

 

Total Roster Cost: 1840

[jeffersonian000]

Well, I take a Mordrak Bomb list with Interceptors and DKs, but yeah, pretty much that.

 

As to the Tau battle suits: kill the Marker Light units first, the. Kill the other useful Tau units, then start working on the Tides. My preference is Psycannons over Incinerators, because Psycannons are more flexible in what can be targeted with them, and Rending peels armor like charm. The only place Incinerators out shine Psycannons in my opinion is putting wounds on embarked units in open top Transports, and auto-hitting in Overwatch. One can even Incinerators have an easier time putting wounds on units embarked in buildings, too, but the Psycannon can punch building walls and deal the same amount of wounds.

 

Basically, GK armies are tool boxes, and need to take enough useful tools to deal with odd problem.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My concerns are Broadsides, with a 2+ save, and those horrible Crisis suits, that shoot, soo many shots,and then move away again, also those Riptides are pretty much a menace as well.

Crisis suits are atrocious, dunno why you're worried about them. Broadsides are a problem, but they're more easily managed than Riptides.

7th killed the Support Shas'O hard, as he can no longer attach to a Riptide, and neither can Battle-Brother Divination psykers (like Eldar or SM back last edition). Now, the only way to reliably buff Riptides is mass markerlights.

Riptides are still a genuine threat to our infantry (S8 AP2 large blasts at 60" is nasty), as Riptides can still get Interceptor, Skyfire and FNP (any two of three) on themselves without needing an IC. The thing they need most from other units is 'Ignore Cover' (which is thankfully now impossible without markerlights, as 'Perfect Timing' has to go on the psyker's unit, and the Shas'O can't attach anymore). Re-rolls are still possible via 'Prescience' from allied psykers, so they'll still be landing blasts just fine on your infantry.

The rest of the Tau list is middling to terrible. Their Troops are utter garbage, so they'll most likely ally in better ones (min Sniper Kroot is all most people play). Devilfish can be annoying but they still die to psycannon and PsyDread autocannon. Pathfinders are an amazing force multiplier, and the Tau player will do everything he can to prevent their deaths. Thankfully, we have multiple ways of removing the laser pointers of doom. Getting into melee is essential, Tau are very shooting orientated and would like nothing more than for you to camp at 24" and get cut down over several turns. Deploy aggressively (you'll be in range of all their problem units Turn 1 regardless so it makes no difference), get rid of the Pathfinders, then focus down his Broadsides, Crisis and Riptides.

Some key units;

- Dreadknight: MVP, as always. His shunt move+heavy incinerator will BBQ any Pathfinders he lands near, and he's their worst nightmare in melee. Remember to turn on his force weapon in the psychic phase before you charge a Riptide, so you can end the fight quickly and Sweeping Advance into another unit (endless melee is back in 7th, yay!). I'd take 2 preferably, as 1 is too easily focused.

- Interceptors: Arguably better than Purifiers in this matchup. You outclass everything in melee (even with 1A base), S6 force weapons is nightmare fuel for Crisis (remember to take a few hammers for Broadsides and Riptides), your incinerators are death to all Tau infantry, and your Shunt move can't be Intercepted

- PsyDread: Worthwhile against Crisis (as if they fail a save they die instantly, due to S8) and their vehicles (your multiple S8 shots overwhelm their AV12/13 and cover saves from Jink). They are kinda worthless against Broadsides and Riptides though. I'd honestly take a second DK over two PsyDreads. Your call really, depends in their list.

- Vindicare: Only if they're dumb enough to take an Ethereal. If they are, laugh hilariously as you cause half their army to run off table Turn 1. If not, he's too easily killed

- Telepathy psykers: Tau have some of the lowest Leadership in the game. Telepathy is a psychic discipline that relies heavily on your opponent having lower Leadership stats. Delivery is a key question though, Mordrak will get Intercepted as will a Raven. The 'Scout' special rule conferred by 'Grand Strategy' still works for delivery though (only Infiltrate forbids IC's without the special rule from joining and deploying with a unit that has it, Scouts have no such restriction). So yeah, 'Scout' a Mastery 3 Telepathy Libby up close (and the GM for that matter), then use Psychic Shriek on a Riptide or Broadside unit. Expensive but its very hard for them to stop, as again it doesn't trigger Interceptor. I'd probably Scout up Terminators as the delivery system, as they require AP2 to deal with and that's less quality firepower into your DK's and Interceptor Knights.

- Mech Henchmen: Henchmen Razorspam is still pretty good in 7th. If you overwhelm his battlesuits with targets, he'll make mistakes. Weapon choices are up to you, psybolt AC is popular but the las/plas variant also has advantages. Cheap psybolt HB also works, although its far less flexible than the other two (hence why its cheaper).

DO NOT TAKE:

- Strikes: Derpstrike just triggers Interception from a Riptide, they are too easily murdered in a shootout with Tau...its hard times for them

- Paladins: Riptides pop these guys way too easily. Terminators can bring more models to the table and have 'Objective Secured' as well

- Foot Henchmen: Way too easily killed, even though they are more efficient than Fire Warriors or Kroot.

- Land Raiders: Riptides and Crisis will pack fusion, forget about it. It doesn't matter that Broadsides can't kill you, melta still will, and Tau have 18" fusion on JSJ platforms.

- Ravens: Broadsides will Intercept you and glance you to death

[jeffersonian000]

On a side note, interceptor is not that hard to spuff, and after turn 1 there should be no Marker Lights to boost Snap Shots. Tau players will have to choose between a BS3 interception followed by needing 6's to hit on their turn, or holding fire until their turn. If you Shunt and kill the support units, everything else that relies on those support units are hosed. You can place your DS'ing units such that an intercepting blast is a very bad idea for the Tau player, which is why Is still play Mordrak despite the detractors.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

On a side note, interceptor is not that hard to spuff, and after turn 1 there should be no Marker Lights to boost Snap Shots.

 

You're either getting Intercepted by a Broadside team full of missile launchers, or a Riptide. Depending on the point level there could be multiple such platforms. They don't care about boosting, against Flyers they choose missiles, against infantry or MC's they'll choose the Riptide. They don't care about markers for Interception, they can twin-link either through the weapon (Broadsides by default) or through allied psykers (Riptide getting 'Prescienced'). 

Tau players will have to choose between a BS3 interception followed by needing 6's to hit on their turn, or holding fire until their turn. If you Shunt and kill the support units, everything else that relies on those support units are hosed. You can place your DS'ing units such that an intercepting blast is a very bad idea for the Tau player, which is why Is still play Mordrak despite the detractors.

 

If you land Mordrak next to his units, the Tau player will choose normal shot mode. Also, considering that Mordrak+friends will annhilate anything they touch should they survive, he might even trade off the units you landed next to for the oppertunity to wipe out your alpha strike. Tau troops are at least somewhat cheap (not IG or Nid cheap but still), he'll have multiple squads more than you ever can field (barring Henchmen spam or Allies). Also, Broadsides can still blast you apart by forcing saves, I've had it done to my Terminators before. I just don't Deepstrike against Tau, it's not worth the risk of losing your alpha strike, not to mention a big chunk of points (none of our Deepstrike options come cheap, and its more models off-table for at least Turn 1 if not Turn 2 that the Tau player doesn't have to shoot in his turn yet). 

 

A Tau player who panics and Intercepts the wrong stuff etc yeah sure, Mordy and other Deepstrike threats work. But I've seen and been castling since it came into vogue in 4th, and its only gotten easier each edition to screw Deepstrike lists. The new Reserve rules (since 6th I mean, as they're largely unchanged in 7th) actively prevent you making all Deepstrike lists anymore. In your example, Mordy will probably be forced to land against an ablative wall of Kroot or other cheap Allied chaff, against which the Tau player has no compunction of landing a Riptide blast on his own dudes if thats what it takes. More likely though, given Mordy bombs are usually small, he'll choose normal shot mode and probably still kill half the unit. 

 

 

Shunting is a far better strategy. Unless he gets first turn, he has zero way of stopping you just teleporting into his lines and BBQ'ing all his Pathfinders Turn 1. Kroot screens can't stop you, Interceptor won't trigger (making it wasted points), and he now has multiple deadly melee threats in his face Turn 1. DK's in particular are a nightmare, as they carve up everything and they will go straight for the Riptides or Broadsides if he doesn't kill them. On the other hand, your Terminators and Interceptors will curbstomp his infantry and battlesuits, plus they score now. You can force really bad decisions out of a Tau player by getting in his face. I play Tau and I don't mind shooting fights, its melee that ends games for me. 

[DinoDoc]

How's my stab at it Darius?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

How's my stab at it Darius?

 

I like it. I assume you're Scouting the Terminators using 'TGS' and then Shunting everything else Turn 1? Looks really aggressive and fun :)

[DinoDoc]

How's my stab at it Darius?

I like it. I assume you're Scouting the Terminators using 'TGS' and then Shunting everything else Turn 1? Looks really aggressive and fun

Pretty much. It was a bit of theory craft after jeffersonian000 informed me that "shunt punching" was a thing again. Looks like a fun idea. I might even build it after I finish the current project I'm on.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Shunting has always been a thing, its just the list wasn't viable in 6th due to the lack of scoring. Now that we're back to everything scoring, Interceptors and DK's are far less reliant on 'TGS' to make them worthwhile. I'm probably gonna sub one of my Purifier squads out in my next game for some Interceptors, as my list does lack speed. 

[mcpolle]

Thx for all the replies guys, gives some good food for thought, appreciate it.

 

Gonna get me some games in and see what happens.

Polle

[Grand Master Iapetus]

 

- Dreadknight: MVP, as always. His shunt move+heavy incinerator will BBQ any Pathfinders he lands near, and he's their worst nightmare in melee. Remember to turn on his force weapon in the psychic phase before you charge a Riptide, so you can end the fight quickly and Sweeping Advance into another unit (endless melee is back in 7th, yay!). I'd take 2 preferably, as 1 is too easily focused. 

 

 

 

 

 

My understanding was that you could NOT consolidate or sweeping advance into a new combat.  Can you clarify the specifics on these rules ?  I'd love to be able to use that.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Hmmm, interesting discussion - might I say as a Tau player myself that a few of you seem to be working off the old Codex and Edition.

 

Tau now no longer have any access to Battle Brother Psykers, and so alongside the removal of ICs joining MCs, have only Markerlights with which to buff Riptides. Riptides are also a bit less scary in close combat, not so much of a problem for Grey Knights of course but they were fairly competent for Tau last edition with Smash despite their WS2/I2. They could really wail on Powerfist Terminators.

 

Nail the Markerlights early. These will be in one of several forms: Marker Drone Swarms, Sniper Teams, Pathfinders and Tetras. Tetras will depend on whether you allow Forge World or not. They're light and easy as hell to kill, Psycannons will do it effortlessly. Either smash them or force them to Jink, either will negate their high accuracy that they were taken for. The others will not respond well to AP4 fire, and will use cover to compensate. A decent Heavy Flamer or similar AP4 Ignores Cover weapon will simply erase them.

 

Crisis Suits fold in melee, but can easily tease charges and hang out of range. They are utterly worthless without Marker Support, though. If this is removed, then they won't be able to hit for crap and Cover will save you anyway. Strength 8 weaponry can capitalise on a failed Armour Save, as they're only W2 Marines with awesome guns. Krak Missiles are god, they simply vanish when hit by those.

 

Riptides can be fairly easily brought down with competent AP2 fire or Melee weaponry especially. Scare him into Nova Charging his shields for a 3++. When he fails, he'll lose a Wound and be left with the standard 5++, which makes the Big Rippy very vulnerable. Tau players use these guys as linebreakers and big, durable fire magnets that happen to melt Terminator squads with ease.

 

As far as the Infantry? T3/4+ should be easy enough for you to kill. Ethereals do not cause Leadership checks anymore, they simply grant an extra Victory Point and remove their pretty excellent buffs. Fire Warriors without Markerlights, Fireblades or Ethereals, (or all of the above,) are terrible and won't put the Wounds on you to get through your saves. (They're as well designed for killing Marines as Bolters are.)

 

Also, use your Psykers. You will own the Psychic phase, so throw those buffs around and whatever damage you can do with spells, do it.

 

That should cover most of what you'll see from Tau that might give you problems. The key is the Markerlights, it's our only buffing mechanism now and without it the whole house of cards comes down.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ouch.

 

Seems like Tau got uber nerfed in 7th...

[Grand Master Caloth]

Nearly back to the ORIGINAL Tau codex... thanks for the insight, CoffeeGrunt.

[CoffeeGrunt]

No problem guys. I always personally believed that Tau were an okay force when played on a table with decent Line of Sight Blocking Cover. Eldar were the special sauce that made TauDar such a horrendous force in 6th, I'd argue it was more Eldar than Tau making that setup so horribly good.

 

Also, remember that Tau just don't get Invuln saves. Other than the Riptide, you'll only see it on ablative Shield Drones and even then it's a 4++ on the Drones and 5++ on the 'Tide unless it Nova Charges. Lascannons and Plasma will still dispatch it in short order. If Crisis Teams or Broadsides are using Drones, lead with the crappy guns to peel off these ablative Wounds, then bring out the big guns to kill the Suits. Broadsides are scary, but you will never see someone pay 25pts to give one an Invuln save, and thus they will die instantly to Lascannons outside of cover, and can be scared into Going to Ground in cover. The latter effectively neuters the whole squad without Markerlights to buff their BS back up.

 

Also a lot of Tau shooting ends at 36". You can hide out of the range of the slow Broadsides with Lascannon Devastators and the like quite comfortably, but beware of Deep Striking Crisis Teams who will get on this. If you're in cover and have killed the Markerlights, they'll do little damage, though, and if you tag Coteaz onto the Devastator team, you can create a bubble that no Tau suit can hope to Deep Strike into.

[Gentlemanloser]

We don't get a lot of Lascannons.  Nor Devs. ;)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Bugger. Spam Plasma and Assault Cannons then. :P

[Gentlemanloser]

No Plasma either.

 

But we can spam +1S Assault Cannons until the cows come home!!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Really? No Las or Plas? Jeez, you're meant to be the best of the best of Marines, I thought you'd be getting a non-Gets Hot Plasma Gun for each Paladin!

Psycannons en masse will deal with most things fairly quickly when concentrated. They'll wreck light Tau Skimmers, Glance heavy ones to death, tear up Battlesuits and start to stack Wounds on Riptides.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, the only large scale access we get are on Henchmen (three Warriors per Squad, three Servitors and as many Jokero as you can stomach).  Or GK Vehicles.

 

GK Infantry only get access to Incinerators (+1S H Flamers), Psycannons and the just a shade away from totally useless Psilencer.

 

No Storm Shields either. :(

[Grand Master Caloth]

Most tau shooting ends at 36", I'd say 90-95% of a pure GK army stops at 24", and 12" is a LONG difference

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My understanding was that you could NOT consolidate or sweeping advance into a new combat. Can you clarify the specifics on these rules ? I'd love to be able to use that.

Whoops, was going off an old rumour about assault. I was incorrect, please disregard my statement on the matter. Consolidation is still at least 1" from enemy models.

Tau now no longer have any access to Battle Brother Psykers, and so alongside the removal of ICs joining MCs, have only Markerlights with which to buff Riptides. Riptides are also a bit less scary in close combat, not so much of a problem for Grey Knights of course but they were fairly competent for Tau last edition with Smash despite their WS2/I2. They could really wail on Powerfist Terminators.

Thanks for correcting me, I must have misread the chart, I still thought we had Eldar for 'Prescience'. Riptides are usually dead if they're in melee with AP2 specialists, but you are correct that they can often kick Tac Marines and the like to death without dying in return.

Riptides can be fairly easily brought down with competent AP2 fire or Melee weaponry especially. Scare him into Nova Charging his shields for a 3++. When he fails, he'll lose a Wound and be left with the standard 5++, which makes the Big Rippy very vulnerable. Tau players use these guys as linebreakers and big, durable fire magnets that happen to melt Terminator squads with ease.

That 3+ invul is so reliable though. I don't often see the Nova backfire, its a 3+ to turn on and most turns you can stay out of AP2 range anyway (very few weapons have 60"+ range and AP2). Melee is a lot better, especially for Knights as we only need one wound to connect past the 3+ invul. Also, they don't just melt Terminators, they melt vehicles (even without the nova overcharge mode for Ordnance), infantry of all types...FMC's and other fast MC's are the only things Riptides won't kill too easily.

As far as the Infantry? T3/4+ should be easy enough for you to kill. Ethereals do not cause Leadership checks anymore, they simply grant an extra Victory Point and remove their pretty excellent buffs. Fire Warriors without Markerlights, Fireblades or Ethereals, (or all of the above,) are terrible and won't put the Wounds on you to get through your saves. (They're as well designed for killing Marines as Bolters are.)

Thanks again, forgot about the changes to Ethereals :) . They're still utter garbage though, as the infantry-heavy list they're designed to support is terrible itself. I think Fire Warriors do okay in a shootout, that 30" does matter in the early game, I've lost Knights to mass S5 before. They're just so bad once you get into your effective range though, and of course in melee its all ogre.

Seems like Tau got uber balanced in 7th...

Fixed ;)

Also, remember that Tau just don't get Invuln saves. Other than the Riptide, you'll only see it on ablative Shield Drones and even then it's a 4++ on the Drones and 5++ on the 'Tide unless it Nova Charges. Lascannons and Plasma will still dispatch it in short order. If Crisis Teams or Broadsides are using Drones, lead with the crappy guns to peel off these ablative Wounds, then bring out the big guns to kill the Suits. Broadsides are scary, but you will never see someone pay 25pts to give one an Invuln save, and thus they will die instantly to Lascannons outside of cover, and can be scared into Going to Ground in cover. The latter effectively neuters the whole squad without Markerlights to buff their BS back up.

The Support Commander will probably roll with Broadsides, now that he can't join Riptides (thank Throne). With Iridium, Stims and his own SG, he can tank a lot of AP2 directed at them. I don't see many using Drones on Broadsides, as you say they're too easily picked off by the allocation rules. MissileSides probably won't mind GTG, they're twin-linked anyway and have an impressive ROF. Also you can't boost Snap Shots, I've seen people try and do that before.

Also a lot of Tau shooting ends at 36". You can hide out of the range of the slow Broadsides with Lascannon Devastators and the like quite comfortably, but beware of Deep Striking Crisis Teams who will get on this. If you're in cover and have killed the Markerlights, they'll do little damage, though, and if you tag Coteaz onto the Devastator team, you can create a bubble that no Tau suit can hope to Deep Strike into.

Not the Hammerheads or Riptides though, which is why Devs and Long Fangs are so worthless in a Tau matchup. Melee is where its at, Tau always fold in melee and it puts them on a clock to table you with shooting or lose.

Coteaz is better with Purifiers TBH, provided you can deliver them to the mid-field.

Really? No Las or Plas? Jeez, you're meant to be the best of the best of Marines, I thought you'd be getting a non-Gets Hot Plasma Gun for each Paladin!

Lascannon and plasma guns are terrible against Tau. You're trying to win a shooting war against an army that specialises in it, and outranges you with their key problem units. I'm fine with having psycannons and incinerators, and much better melee. I've seen Tac Marines get jammed up by Kroot before (both as opponent and player), but even Strikes will easily sweep through any in-codex screening walls. Not to mention Interceptors and DK's fly straight over speedbumps.

Also, our weapons are much better against Tau's best remaining Ally, Necrons (Eldar are now unable to share buffs and thus don't offer much except even more expensive fragile units). Warriors can be a real pain to put down at range, as can their AV13 spam and Scythes.