Beating Psychic Death Stars

[Frater Cornelius]

I do not know if any of you met any yet in this edition but I did. A Jet Council. It was a massive pain in the rear. Constant invisibility uptime forced me to go for objectives and other targets because my templates could not touch them. It was the clostest game I've with IG, the enemy lost 4VP against my 6VP but he made it to the natural end of the game.. and this concerns me.

So, how woukd you deal with psychic death stars like council and screamers or massed psychic stuff in general. I know hat you either go all out or skip psychics all together. With 3-4 charges you are wasting your points as the most potent armies have way more than that or have very good defense against it.

 

I know a solid way is to establisb psychic supremacy yourself, as I am currently planning to do with my IG/GK splice.

But I am reluctant to abandon my purist ways and I see little point in going half way and spend 150 points on 4 charges instead of another big gun as we have established above.

 

So what non psychic ways do you see to deal with such heavy psychic plays like stars or mass conjurations?

 

Thanks for any input.

[Lord Commander Scrymgeour]

Would meat shield spam work? If he's invested in a high points unit, he's not likely to have anywhere near enough bodies to go toe to toe on objective secured.

What psycic powers were killing you? Can you just ignore the jet council? - I've been ignoring a bunch of my opponents' high power units (helldrakes / doomsday barge things) and it seems to be going well.

[WarriorFish]

Dead psykers cast no powers - we solve things through application of numerically superior fire power. Simple and direct; we're not called the Emperor's hammer for nothing! :P The first thing you should do when encountering a death star is ask yourself "is it worth me trying to deal with this?". Sometimes it's better to ignore it and concentrate your forces elsewhere, that hasn't changed with the advent of all the fancy 7th psychic changes.

[Frater Cornelius]

I can not ignore jet council and screamer star because they have armour bane and I play a mech army. So I have no tarpits except some veterans. My weapon is high power shooting phase but against rerollable saves or immunity to templates that does not help.

Against the Eldar player it wasn't very close. He was the first one to make it to the natural game ending without being tabled. Naturally, a more experienced player with a more refined list will be trouble. I want to be prepared.

 

The spells that gave me trouble are Invisibility (my main anti infantry guns are templates, thus the new invis counters me), Misfortune (rending wave serpent with all shots on my LR ain't fun), that thing that allows him to reroll his saves, and the mass of charges negated my psykers, thus you go all out or none at all. In that game they were a wasted 150 points.

 

Against a Screamer Star I could try and shoot down Kairos, but I have no idea how to actually stop them and the jet council. Ignoring them costs me 1 tank a turn, no good.

Same goes for psychic FMC or other shenanigans but against those shooting still helps as it is.

[march10k]

Well...every deathstar is different, and a slightly different tactic will be necessary against each.  In your case, the one thing that they all have in common is that they're psychers.  

 

The screamerstar is actually pretty easy to deal with.  Its psychic nastiness is built on offensive spells, so relic plating combined with a fair bit of psycher prowess of your own (santic powers will GUT a screamerstar), and Bob's your uncle.  On his turn, you deny his antitank spells, letting the buffs on the star go...on your turn, you spam banishment at the star, then shoot it.  

 

My local cheesemonger has a star made of 20 fleshhounds of khorne with a couple heralds on juggers, supported by two heralds of TZ and fateweaver...I call this varian "fatehounds," and it really angers me because of the violent fluff beat.  The funny part is, the hounds can't touch a sentinel, but the two juggers can.  Do you know how long it takes two juggers to chew through seven sentinels? Long enough for the rest of my shooting to deal with the other three models in his list.  Then they pop out and have lost their TZ support.  Done and done.  But in your case, I think you'll have to just fight daemons with santic psychers.

 

The invisible jetbike council is a tougher nut to crack.  What's needed is numbers.  Not numbers of infantry, although that's not a bad way to go.  Numbers of shots.  The same thing that kills eldar in general kills the seer council, you just need three times the shots to make up the difference between BS3 and BS1.  Considering that a jetseer council is hideously expensive, that's not necessarily unfair. A version of my list with six veteran squads would be able to spam 48 S5-7 shots at them, not counting any lasgun shots.  That's going to be six hits, on average from the chimeras and eight from the autocannons, for a total of fourteen, three from heavy bolters, three from multilasers, and eight from autocannons.  At T4, that's two wounds from the heavy bolters, 2.5 from multilasers, and 6.7 from autocannons, for a total of eleven, should generate three failed saves.  I think killing three warlocks in a single turn of torrenting from 870 points out of my list is reasonable.  It should certainly shock the eldar player into keeping his distance, at which point his points sink becomes less relevant.  You also like punisher pask.  Give him punisher wingmen with heavy bolter sponsons and three tanks throw off 81 shots.  Put prescience on them and you'll get about 24 hits.  That gives you 16 wounds, and four preferred enemy rerolls to wound, so round up to 20 wounds to account for the increased to-wound chance and AP if one of the hits happens to be a lascannon or MM.  That's 6-7 failed saves, round up to seven to account for pask's rending.  That guts the seerstar in a single round of shooting.  The point is that you have to torrent a  jetseer council or ignore it.  That means more guns and fewer pieplates.  The upside is that the pieplates that you do have will find plenty to do shooting at the rest of his army.  I'm sorry that "torrent them" is not the most satisfactory answer, but until we start seeing special rules (anticipated in the wording of the snap shot rule) that modify snap-shotting, there isn't much to be done.  One other half-measure does exist.  You could take a blob of 50 guardsmen with missile launchers and three divination psychers.  Pray for the power that lets you fire snap shots at natural ballistic skill.  Put the psycher who rolls that power into the blob, and then put that power AND divination on them.  Now you have five krak missiles that hit those jetbikes 75% of the time, but that still only kills 3-4 per turn, unless they're dumb enough to get within 24" of you, in which case they get flashlighted, too...I'm hoping for a FAQ that lets a psyocculum fire snap shots at BS10, or at least specifically ignore invisibility, it's expressly designed to see through witchery!!!  Another nice tweak would be for "ignores cover" weapons to ignore invisibility, but that's pure wishlisting!

[Frater Cornelius]

Thanks for the replies. I was also thinking along those lines. Theres some good thoughts.

 

But here is the thing. You are talking about an army like my current IG/GK list, where I can spam powers into nothingness and deny like a champ.

What I am talking about now is to forgo every and all psychic support in favour of more bodies and/or big guns, the other extreme. I have found that bringen just 2 primaris psykers isn't as effective against armies with a higher warp charge count. Against armies with a lower count, I wouldn't have needed the psykera to begin with. In some games they were gold, but now I more and more get the feeling that MOAR DAKKA is better and has less counters. So for me it is either and pure list of dakka or a mixed list of psychic supremacy.

 

Another thing I was thinking was... The Knight. Right now I can put him into my 1500 list. I'll drop the demolisher, drop the 2 psykers and change pask punisher into vanquisher, that way I have enough points to include an Errant and have some left for some upgrades.

 

Any more ideas on how to deal with it as a purist? I know the answer is more dakka but maybe you have encountered certain tactics or unit combination. I have my eyes closed to the Elite and FS slots, but maybe they have some answer for them.

Or is it really the psychic supremacy that gives my list the edge against other psykers and other opponents in general for the same reason that psykers bother me now?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Forewarning only lets you fire Overwatch at full BS, not any other Snap Shots IIRC.

[hendrik]

coteaz will solve your problems by letting you go first, or have a good chance of seizing. this way your opponent won't be able to cast any powers on turn 1, allowing your army to focus on them. offcourse a smart opponent will try to hide his deeathstar in cover but still.

a purist ig army will not offer many viable counters, although i would argue that invisibility is the only thing that really screw with you. make him fail that one and you'll do a LOT better!

[Frater Cornelius]

Invis needs to be rolled first. So it is a hit or miss to begin with. I do not know. Right now I am gravitating towards a purist list because it is less vulnerable to codex changes and tourney rules like not allowing multiple Combined Arms Detachments, only allies, which sorta breaks my IG/GK list.

By bringing overwhelming firepower, I can shoot through invis and play towards objectives or just annihilate the rest of his army. Last time I checked IG still has the most super-scoring units from all codecies. I like Vindicares and Inquisitors a lot, but I feel that I am getting lost in details and shenanigans rather than playing to my strength.

[hornywingythingy]

Psyflemen dreads for rerolls on dtw tests, relic plating for adamantly will. Honestly, screamerstar is dead, it has no hit and run and is very prone to tarpitting. You probably need to diversify your list more if you want a tac list, gk allies and at least one conscript blob will not only strengthen you against deathstars, it will strengthen you against msu pod lists (far scarier)

[Frater Cornelius]

Psyflemen dreads for rerolls on dtw tests, relic plating for adamantly will. Honestly, screamerstar is dead, it has no hit and run and is very prone to tarpitting. You probably need to diversify your list more if you want a tac list, gk allies and at least one conscript blob will not only strengthen you against deathstars, it will strengthen you against msu pod lists (far scarier)

 

Here is the current incarnation of my 1500 list:

 

Pask Vanquisher with LC

Vanquisher Wingman with LC

(this setup might vary a bit to increase their kill potential beyond MC and heavy tanks)

 

Primaris Psyker lvl2

 

Coteaz

 

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor

3x Servo Skulls

 

2x Grenadiers

3 meltas, Taurox

 

2x Henchmen

2 Acolytes with Bolters

2 Servitors with PC

1 Psyker

Psyback

(Coteaz and Inquisitor goes here, deploy outside of the Psyback, if there is too much anti infantry fire, they stay inside psyback and redeploy)

 

Wyvern Battery

2x Wyvern

 

2x Psyfleman Dread

 

1499 points, everything important has at least 36" range, 10 charges before D6 addition, access to everything but Conjurations, save access to Sanctuary and Banishment from Vehicles to keep Daemons at bay. Very good psychic denial against psy-stars. Decent unit density against drop pods.

I might exchange 1 psyfleman with a Vindicare on occasion.

At 1850 toss in that Vindicare/2nd psyfleman, 2 Hydras and another lvl2 primaris.

 

Coteaz and Primaris will roll on Divination. Psyfleman and Psybacks have the most important sanctic powers against daemons and can get 6++. I am tempted to give the Henchmen psykers Pyromancy. It fits well with my holy theme and 4/6 powers are awesome. 4+ cover, ap3 snipe with potential aoe, large blast ignore cover and melta beam? I like it a lot and it lend extra firepower to the squads.

 

Is that the diversity you are talking about?

[march10k]

35 points appiece for scout sentinels with multilasers, and you can have nine of them, if you want to torrent something on the cheap..315 points for 27 S6 shots that wound on 2+...65 points each for chimeras with 3 S5 and 3 S6 shots each, and they can be the transports of a blob of fifty guardsmen with five more heavy weapons, a worthy prescience target...It's not hard to field a ridiculous amount of dakka if you have the models...the problem is having the models.  

[Frater Cornelius]

Aight, as opposed to the Psyker list above, there is this:

Pask Punisher

HB sponsons, HB hull

Executioner Wingman

PC sponsons, HB hull

3x Veterans

2 meltas

1 AC

Chimera

3x 3 Sentinels with MM

2x Wyvern

2x Hydra

1528 points. This list isn't very refined, just something I threw together in 1min following some advice.

Obviously a retarded amount of firepower in one turn. Also a min. range of 36". Lacks in the ap2 department and opening av14 reliably. If I were to put both lists against each other, I believe that the psychic one will come out top simply because there higher strength shooting and higher AV. If I were to fix the dakka list, it would probably b a way closer call. Psyflemen can deal with av12 and Vindicare would rip apart 1 tank at a time. Psyback and the Taurox Team (give vets the same AC setup with 2 meltas) can deal with sentinels fairly well, as will the Plasma Cannons. Vanquisher can help Vindicare or Psyflemen to kill the Punisher.

On the other side the s6 shooting will hurt my transports and infantry, less so against the Dreads.

The reason I believe the psychic list has the edge is that it has more tools at it's disposal and thus is more versatile. It has access to a lot of psychic shooting when everyone rolls on Telepathy. It has Divination buffs for 4++ or ignoring cover or things like that. It also has higher psy defense and can deny the witch damn well. And I believe it would be a blast to play with all those psychic abilities flying around.

On the other hand, the psychic list will probably break faster due to reliance on infantry beyond a single job like tank hunting. I have yet to test the full extend of the power of said psychic list (hopefully this week), but I feel it is less resistant than a AV14 wall or Sentinel/Transport spam.

As for countering Death Stars? Both can do it in their way. Killing drop pods MSU? Probably equal as well, though the transport/sent list has the advantage of higher target saturation, though not as tough AV to go around.

The last question that remain, which one is superior. I can see the charme in both lists, but I am not willing to go out and buy 6-9 sentinels. For the GK list I only need 2 dreads and a few convertions to complete it.

There is also a possible middle ground. I can skip on Psyflemen and Vindicare (), add a third inquisitor and henchmen in psyback and a Leman Russ variant, give the the 2 inquisitors lvl1, remove the lvl2 primaris and toss around some upgrades if needed. More s7, more ap2, more super-scoring and same amount of charges with 2 more platforms to cast from, less s8 and ap1.

This is also an adequate solution.

[hornywingythingy]

I almost think you have too many psykers! I'd still worry about a podding list, you will likely lose three tanks in their first turn to a pod list, and you have no way to keep them out of melta, I mean it does depend on your meta though, also early indications look like combined arms isn't being used for tournies (bao and nova aren't gonna allow it, and UK tournies look to be the same)

[PureFodder]

If a deathstar lacks hit-and-run, just throw 50 conscripts + priest at them. Killing 51 wounds of fearless guardsmen who can get re-rolls of armour saves is a very good way to effectively eliminate a deathstar from the game.

[Frater Cornelius]

When talking pure IG then, how to stop a msu melta pod list then. Bubble wrap?

[hornywingythingy]

When talking pure IG then, how to stop a msu melta pod list then. Bubble wrap?

Yup, wrap your tanks with a layer of conscripts so they can't get within half range on meltaguns, should limit your casualties.

[Frater Cornelius]

I disagree. A platoon is not necessary. In my experience they were a waste of space every time I took them. Their are other ways of preventing melta landings without having to take a 'tax' unit (mininal platoon).

I care little for transports as opposed to the main tanks. Save goes for my Chimera chassis. At the beginning I can see his setup and anticipate his moves.

Wrap tanks with tanks. Put the most valuable ones in the center and cover them them terrain and expendable tanks.

If you are going first you have the option of popping smoke.

Sometimes veterans can cover.

The most important thing is to not allow pods to land between your tanks.

I see platoons more as a liability in my list. If I could take conscripts just like that, it might be wortg it but exchanging what amounts to be a Leman Russ for 25 modies that do nothing seems a bit steep. And that is the conscript tax.

 

And, lets be honest, when they land, they will target the Knight. Yes, he will be back when thr conversion is done. And he will be back big time.

Oh and droo meltas shooting at my knight in melta range? I like that ;)

[Emperors Immortals]

Ive seen bloodlance do some horrible things to vehicle blocks in a pod list. Not reliable but big when it happens.

 

This is a graet thread by the way, im going to follow it!

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Seems to me you could tar pit an invisible jetseer squad with a decent sized blob or Ogryns.

[Frater Cornelius]

Seems to me you could tar pit an invisible jetseer squad with a decent sized blob or Ogryns.

 

A proper jet council will have an allied Baron from DE, thus giving Hit and Run. They can not afford their star to be stuck in combat.

 

Now, I hate to be so painfully obvious, but... the Imperial Knight is a solid unit against any star. Even after the S-D nerf, he still managed to get a respectable amount of wounds in and a chance to remove with his melee attack. But then comes the stomping. This should mess up most big units. Again, the seer star is a bit dangerous to tackle in melee because they all have armourbane on their weapons. Granted, they still need to roll way above average to hurt the Knight in melee, but there is a chance, however slim. Still, it is an adequate solution and most stars should break after the second combat phase... and if the Knight breaks, he takes them with him ;)

[hornywingythingy]

I disagree. A platoon is not necessary. In my experience they were a waste of space every time I took them. Their are other ways of preventing melta landings without having to take a 'tax' unit (mininal platoon).

I care little for transports as opposed to the main tanks. Save goes for my Chimera chassis. At the beginning I can see his setup and anticipate his moves.

Wrap tanks with tanks. Put the most valuable ones in the center and cover them them terrain and expendable tanks.

If you are going first you have the option of popping smoke.

Sometimes veterans can cover.

The most important thing is to not allow pods to land between your tanks.

I see platoons more as a liability in my list. If I could take conscripts just like that, it might be wortg it but exchanging what amounts to be a Leman Russ for 25 modies that do nothing seems a bit steep. And that is the conscript tax.

 

And, lets be honest, when they land, they will target the Knight. Yes, he will be back when thr conversion is done. And he will be back big time.

Oh and droo meltas shooting at my knight in melta range? I like that ;)

Fair enough, whatever works best for you, I don't see it as a tax, cos I'd be running the pcs with flamers jumping out a detta, and the two compulsory guard squads would be backfield campers/reserved to walk on backfield if he had long range artillery like thunderfires, then the conscripts only cost 150 for 50, and can do a lot to screw up your opponents getting to stuff. Also gives you somewhere to put psykers and stuff. As I said it's dependant on what works in your meta, I'm not convinced the knight will do so well long term as I recon as we all mech back up melta is going to start coming out in droves.

[Frater Cornelius]

I disagree. A platoon is not necessary. In my experience they were a waste of space every time I took them. Their are other ways of preventing melta landings without having to take a 'tax' unit (mininal platoon).

I care little for transports as opposed to the main tanks. Save goes for my Chimera chassis. At the beginning I can see his setup and anticipate his moves.

Wrap tanks with tanks. Put the most valuable ones in the center and cover them them terrain and expendable tanks.

If you are going first you have the option of popping smoke.

Sometimes veterans can cover.

The most important thing is to not allow pods to land between your tanks.

I see platoons more as a liability in my list. If I could take conscripts just like that, it might be wortg it but exchanging what amounts to be a Leman Russ for 25 modies that do nothing seems a bit steep. And that is the conscript tax.

And, lets be honest, when they land, they will target the Knight. Yes, he will be back when thr conversion is done. And he will be back big time.

Oh and droo meltas shooting at my knight in melta range? I like that

Fair enough, whatever works best for you, I don't see it as a tax, cos I'd be running the pcs with flamers jumping out a detta, and the two compulsory guard squads would be backfield campers/reserved to walk on backfield if he had long range artillery like thunderfires, then the conscripts only cost 150 for 50, and can do a lot to screw up your opponents getting to stuff. Also gives you somewhere to put psykers and stuff. As I said it's dependant on what works in your meta, I'm not convinced the knight will do so well long term as I recon as we all mech back up melta is going to start coming out in droves.

Which is why the Knight is so glorious. Infantry meltas need to be within 6" to guarantee any serious damage and even if they are, 1-2 meltas won't cut it. And when they finally do get him down, guess what happens to a super-heavy? It not only took a lot of fire, but it also spelled his last act of vengeance upon his melta killer.

No, the only save and reliable way to get a Knight down is spamming him to death with long ranged AT like s8 and higher. A lucky melta shot is too risky for most players to pull off.

[hornywingythingy]

We will see, I will be honest, they really haven't impressed me when I have seen them in action myself, but I think your knight coloured glasses may be tilting your opinion! ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, maybe. Or your view has been influenced by a bad first impression and incompetent play ;)