The Emperor's Gift, Grey Knights and the Ordo Malleus

[Leif Bearclaw]

I was reading The Emperor's Gift over the weekend, and while I found it a fantastic read, it reminded me of the changes to the Grey Knight background in their current codex, whioch I found rather unwelcome. While I know of the dislike some of the changers provoked (like the justly reviled Khornate Knights), I wondered how the GK fans felt about some of the other changes made. A couple of examples:

 

Whereas Ben Counter's Alaric series had the Knights making a point that, despite their alliance with the Malleus, they still remain an independent Spece Marine Chapter, the newer fluff has them dancing directly to the Inquisition's tune. While Gift did counter this a little, with the Inquisitor Lord doubting that the Knights would open fire on Fenris, it still looks like a major drop in the Knight's prestige/heroic allure. This combines with the Knights doing the post-Armageddon purging, which used to be on a far smaller scale and didn't involve the Knights, rendering them closer to Inquisitorial hatchet-men than the noble and heroic silver line of Codex Deamonhunters and the Alaric series.

 

Then there's the massive increase in secrecy and murdering. While the Knights have never been common knowledge, having seeing a Grey Knight carry a death/mindwipe sentence always seemed to me like the worst kind of grimderp. The first Grey Knight book has the Knight's own secrecy used against them, which is ultimately undermined because the Cannoness knows that the Knights exist. In the modern fluff, she would have been killed, leaving Alaric and his men dead (of course that would've actually meant the deamon's plan failed, but that's Tzeentch for you). Contrast to the new fluff, which has the Sanguinary Guard of the BAs mindwiped after fighting with the Grey Knights against Ka'Bandha (I think). The BAs have fought Deamons before, why can't they be trusted with their memories, just because this time the Knights were there? Then there's the mindwiping itself, which has traditionally been portrayed as wiping the entire memory, so you have Dante allowing his finest warriors to certainly lose/risk their combined centuries of experience, for the sake of one fight against a foe most of them had probably already encountered

[Gentlemanloser]

It's all a hodge-podge of inconsistency.

 

No one Knows about Daemons.  Yet most Chapters have heroic lore filled of besting Daemons, and making Weapons out of them / Daemon Weapons.

 

No one knows of the Grey Knights.  Yet every chapter and IG regiment have met them.  And have records of it.

 

None of it is even slightly consistent, nor believable.

[Valerian]

To your two primary points:

 

1.) The Grey Knights were always the Chamber Militant (the military arm) of the Ordo Malleus, and thus directly supporting and subserviant to those Ordo Malleus Inquisitors specifically.  This is from their earliest fluff, the Rogue Trader era Realms of Chaos book that provided the first background source material and original army list for the Grey Knights.  I've got zero problem with them not being seen as an independent Chapter, because they never were. 

 

2.) Likewise, the mind-wiping of other Marines that are exposed to Chaos also originates with the earliest fluff.  However, unfortunately, this specific piece of background material has been inconstently applied over the 27 years of 40k, with many, many examples of various Marines and other Imperial forces fighting against the Deamonic and going on with their lives afterward as if it were nothing unusual.  This causes a huge issue when GW decides to write about mind-wiping.  To me, this is inconsistency is the major problem; if all GW authors had used the good old "kill everyone exposed, and mind-wipe the Marines" standard over the years in every novel, and every story, then none of us would have a problem with this.  The fact that they now sometimes mention it, but usually don't is what frustrates us fans/readers.

 

V

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by GML, but he reinforces my points exactly.

[Gentlemanloser]

:P

 

 

 

I've got zero problem with them not being seen as an independent Chapter, because they never were.

 

Actually they were, even in the earliest fluff.  They were always Chapter 666, and their own Chapter.  They were tied to the OM, as both served the same purpose for the Emperor, and gave the OM specialized military might.

 

Instead of requesting these Navy / disposable meatbags from the IG / other SM chapters.  The GK were on habd with focused knowledge and experience.  And could retain such as they weren't mindwiped after.

 

The DH Codex even mentioned that while being their own Chapter, a GKGM sat on the OM Council as a Lord Inquisitor as well.

[Valerian]

I've got zero problem with them not being seen as an independent Chapter, because they never were.

Actually they were, even in the earliest fluff. They were always Chapter 666, and their own Chapter. They were tied to the OM, as both served the same purpose for the Emperor, and gave the OM specialized military might.

Instead of requesting these Navy / disposable meatbags from the IG / other SM chapters. The GK were on habd with focused knowledge and experience. And could retain such as they weren't mindwiped after.

The DH Codex even mentioned that while being their own Chapter, a GKGM sat on the OM Council as a Lord Inquisitor as well.

Certainly they've always been a Chapter, but they were never independent, as the various Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes are. From the beginning, the Grey Knights have been an organization within the Inquisition. Not just tied to the Ordo Malleus, but a part of it.

[Raulmichile]

Well, GW had trouble since the beginning of 40K describing the level of knowledge all imperial factions have about everything daemonic, going from "it is uber first class secret" with nobody except a literally selected few knowing about real daemons and warp things, to "hell yeah, daemons again, here come the apocalypse, let's kill them" attitude.

 

My guess:  GW realized that keeping daemons and all Chaos related things so uber dangerous and corrupting so that the Imperium tried to keep them secret to everybody, inevitabily rended daemons and CSM as a tiny part of the greater whole so they gradually tried to massify the threat and therefore occupy a central part of the gaming plot.  In Rogue Trader days even Chaos Marine warbands were so diminute that they were only that: a bunch of pirates, left overs of an old era nobody remembered and when confronted, the Inquisition tried their best to eradicate any trace of what happened there.  Same with daemons. 

 

You can not realistically do this in a galaxy size empire if the threat is not  tiny (or manageable) enough to isolate it.  Otherwise it is just impossible to keep the secret for 10K years when entire planets dissapear altogether, constant chaos incursions taking place all over the Imperium, huge daemonic invasions happening throughout Imperial history, warp travel being a really dangerous affair... you get my point.

 

Now, the policy to transform Chaos threat into a major player in the galactic game has not been consistent through the years by the development team, hence the HUGE inconsistencies concerning the knowledge the Imperial institutions have regarding Chaos and how this knowledge is dealt with by the Inquisition, if any.  Sometimes it is top of the top, sometimes daemons and Chaos marines are cartoonized in a way super hero "spez miureens" singlehandedly kick their butts badly and save the day, looking at the sunset, smoking cigars in their mouths and all that.

[Gentlemanloser]

Certainly they've always been a Chapter, but they were never independent, as the various Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes are.  From the beginning, the Grey Knights have been an organization within the Inquisition.  Not just tied to the Ordo Malleus, but a part of it.

 

Not really.

 

They were created separately from the OM, and only under the guidance/rule of the Sigilite.  They work closely with the OM, but they aren't subservient to it.

 

The only SM chapter subservient to the OM are the Exorcists.

 

 

 

Now, the policy to transform Chaos threat into a major player in the galactic game has not been consistent through the years by the development team, hence the HUGE inconsistencies concerning the knowledge the Imperial institutions have regarding Chaos and how this knowledge is dealt with by the Inquisition, if any.  Sometimes it is top of the top, sometimes daemons and Chaos marines are cartoonized in a way super hero "spez miureens" singlehandedly kick their butts badly and save the day, looking at the sunset, smoking cigars in their mouths and all that.

 

Here's the major problem.

 

If it's not an uber top secret threat that is kept under wraps from everyone, then there's no point trying to keep it a secret from *anyone*.

 

And Mindwipe is pointless.

 

You don't mndwipe a single World, when the rest of the Imperium know your dirty secret.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The only SM chapter subservient to the OM are the Exorcists.

And the Red Hunters, although they may well be general Inquisitorial dogsbodies rather than Malleus specific.

[IndigoJack]

I'm with Valerian on this one. Both the 3rd edition DH codex and the 5th edition GK codex specifically call the Grey Knights the chamber militant of the Order Malleus. It may very well be that the BL books say their independent, but if we're looking for a canon answer, then I'd say that codexes trump BL books, as BL has been known to take liberties with the fluff.

[Gentlemanloser]

The old Daemonhunter Codex was one of the places that highlighted the Chapter had its own goals and worked on it's own.

 

It just helped the OM when it needed it.

 

Edit;

 

Althought this has changed from iteration to iteration.

 

The original Grey Knights were lead by the OM.  The GKGM was an Inquisitor, not a space Marine (Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness page 247) Which also states "although technically Space Marines, the Grey Knights are, to all intents and purposes part of the Inquisition".

 

With mostly no Psychic Powers.

 

Then in Codex: Daemonhunters, the Chapter gets revised to be more autonomous, with the Chapter Master being a Marine, who is also part of the Inner Circle of the OM.  And the GK themsevels are spread across the Galaxy and usually the first force to respond to *any* Chaos threat.  Usually dealing with it by the time anyone else gets there.

 

All with Psychic Potential.

 

And then we get the last iteration of the fluff.  Which sees us under the purview of the Sigilte, and a full Codex Chapter (/le sigh), with nominal mention of being embedded in the OM.  With the chapter led by a council of Grand Masters.

 

Edit: This seperation can also be noticed in the layout of the Army Books.

 

In Slaves to Darkness, it was the forces of the Ordo Malleus, with a required 1+ OM Daemonhunter. 

 

In the Daemonhunters Codex, Inquisitors move to 0+, and there's a note that "it is entirely possible to form an army based purely around the Grey Knights.  <snip> this will mkae for a characterful <snip> force"

 

Then finally in C:GK, the inquisition is but a lesser focus, mostly tacked on.  The Focus on the Grey Knights themselves.

[IndigoJack]

Pg. 6 of the DH codex, first paragraph, "The monastery is home to the most secret of Chapters in the Imperium, the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Grey Knights."

[Gentlemanloser]

Never once disagreed that the GK are not the Chamber Militant of the OM (or in the new fluff the *entire* Inquisition)

 

This doesn't stop them operating on their own, without Inquisitorial direction.

 

Edit: I'm pretty sure there are examples of Deeds of Legend that have the Grey Knights go do stuff, without the behest of an Inquisitor.

 

Take the lastest GK Codex.  The first two Deeds are "by Inquisitorial request".  The next, The Battle for the Ghost Halls, is through GK Prognosticators themselves.

 

The GK foresaw the threat and went to deal with it, autonomously.

 

Much like the fall of Ba'Khanda, where the Grey Knight Council (all Grand Masters) go talk to Dante.

 

And break the silence and secrecy that surround them?!?!?!

 

;)

[IndigoJack]

While you didn't say that weren't the chamber militant, your last response came across as disagreement. While the GKs may very well do their own thing, they still have to answer directly to the inquisition and they have nowhere near the autonomy of other space marine chapters.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, apologies if I wasn't clear! :)

 

Chamber Militant I just see as "go to fighting force".  Not as the only thing the GK do.  If that makes sense.

 

The OM (and now the entire Inquisition) go to the GK when they need the muscle they provide.  But the GK themselves are built to combat Chaos, and they do that on their own, without Instruction from the OM.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Firstly
>looking for consistency with any GW publication

>constanza.exe

 

I wouldn't get too focused on the technical aspects of the Chapter and its place in the Imperium. Such things are by definition dependent on your perspective. Certaintly, the Ordo Malleus treat the Knights as their premier military force and call upon them most regularly (as they share knowledge and chosen prey). However, the Knights can and do seek out the enemy without being told to, thats why their Prognosticators exist (the most powerful seers in the Imperium). Also, the Knights are not afraid to stand up to the Inquisition if their goals conflict with the Chapter's mission. 

 

As with all things in the Imperium, it comes down to politics and influence. I made this point in the other thread about the Inquisition; like a political system of power for government, the actual power that can be exerted by different parties is nebulous and dependent on many things. Knights seriously consider every request for their aid, but they are not infinite in number and they reserve the right to refuse. Likewise, even a senior member of the Inquisition would approach the Knights very respectfully, as they are formidable soldiers and wield authority that is almost as absolute. So, as the codex (which is the best source) lays out, the bonds between the two organisations are very much about politics and influence. 'Emperor's Gift' gives the best example of the Knights struggling to stay loyal to their mission whilst obeying their nominal masters. 

[VVolf]

One thing mentioned in the fluff is that chapter masters of other astares are gifted with the knowledge or have come to know about the grey knights. The former legions especially have information at the top of the command chain and generally don't tell the other marines unless they need to (like in The Emperor's Gift').

 

A good example in recent fluff is of Pandorax. The Grey Knights and Dark Angels Leaders know many secrets about each other.

 

Also, from how i've read the fluff. Most worlds have only ever heard rumours of marines. Actual battles with marine forces are a tiny fraction of the overall fronts the Imperium fights. I would be suprised if these places had could identify individual chapters, let alone the GK. In the grand scheme of things, the Imperium would be oblivious.

[Valerian]

GML,

 

You've got all of the right information, as you accurately relayed much of the relevant background material, but have somehow come to the wrong conclusion. 

 

 

 

Chamber Militant I just see as "go to fighting force". 

 

Chamber Militant roughly translates to: Department of War.... so, yes, the Grey Knights are the "go-to fighting force" for the Ordo Malleus, but it is because they are a part of the Ordo Malleus (itself one Order within the Inquisition); they are not some external entity that the Ordo simply has a habitual relationship with.  Thus the Grey Knights are not, in fact, independent of the Inquisition, as you have argued.  This relationship is still reinforced in our current (5e) codex:

 

"Where the other Space Marine Chapters would be autonomous, the Grey Knights were fully embedded in the Inquisition..." (page 7)

 

and, "the Grey Knights are permanently attached to that most secretive of organizations, the Ordo Malleus....The Grey Knights form the main fighting strength of the Ordo Malleus and, traditionally, its Chapter Master is a member of the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition." (Grey Knights Index Astartes article)

 

and, "The Ordo has a complete Chapter of the Legiones Astartes attached to it on a permanent basis." (Slaves to Darkness)

 

 

Now, that being said, the fact that they are not separate from, or independent from, the Inquisition, does not mean that they do not have a a great deal of freedom to carry out their mandate.  They clearly have broad authority to fight the daemonic, wherever it may appear, without any coordination with Ordo Malleus leadership required in advance - this isn't in dispute; they clearly don't need permission to do their job however they see fit, yet they still are assigned to the broader Inquisition. 

 

Best,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Val, that single line in our new dex is the *only* mention in the entire codex about being part of the Inquisition.

 

Unlike other, older fluff.

 

The observable trend is the divorcing of the Grey Knights from the Inquisition as a whole.

 

Just take a look at the leadership structure.  Going form a Human Grand Master, to a Marine who was also an Inquisitor Lord, to a council of Marines with no input from the Inquisition.

[Valerian]

Val, that single line in our new dex is the *only* mention in the entire codex about being part of the Inquisition.

Does the fact that it is only one line make it any less valid?

 

Unlike other, older fluff.

 

The observable trend is the divorcing of the Grey Knights from the Inquisition as a whole.

 

Just take a look at the leadership structure.  Going form a Human Grand Master, to a Marine who was also an Inquisitor Lord, to a council of Marines with no input from the Inquisition.

You have to provide the full context for some of that older fluff, however. For example, back in the Rogue Trader organizational structure for all Chapters of Space Marines had two leaders, the Chapter Master (an Administrator), and the Commander.  So, when later "retcons" dropped the bit about the Chapter Master of the Grey Knights being an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor rather than a Space Marine, it was less about a change in the role and structure of the Grey Knights, and more about the fact that the old function of Chapter Master was dropped from all Legiones Astartes Chapters, and the old "Commander" function was renamed to Chapter Master.

 

Likewise, the more modern bit from the Index Astartes article about the Chapter Master (the contemporary definition and role) being a traditional member of the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition has not necessarily been dropped.  Consider that given the background material provided for Kaldor Draigo (a brand new special character for the 5e codex) he spends most of his time in The Warp, and hasn't been available to attend any Inner Conclave meetings or fundraisers.

 

Nevetheless, I don't see any "observable trend that they're divorcing the Grey Knights from the Inquisition..." and think you'd be hard-pressed to make that case.

 

Best,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

You have to provide the full context for some of that older fluff, however. For example, back in the Rogue Trader organizational structure for all Chapters of Space Marines had two leaders, the Chapter Master (an Administrator), and the Commander. So, when later "retcons" dropped the bit about the Chapter Master of the Grey Knights being an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor rather than a Space Marine, it was less about a change in the role and structure of the Grey Knights, and more about the fact that the old function of Chapter Master was dropped from all Legiones Astartes Chapters, and the old "Commander" function was renamed to Chapter Master.

Did not remember this.

Thanks!

Edit: Still, it's a long stretch to say that it's the Supreme Grand Master of the GK that sits on the Inquisitorial Council, and seeing as he's totally lost to the warp for all eternity, and the GK won't replace him, no one else will take that role.

You'd think that even if the GK wouldn't put a new Supreme Grand Master in place, the Inquisition would, push, for a replacement on their council. To continue the influence they once/used to have.

Also, this new ruling by GK Council is new. And has seemed to replace the Inquisitorial Council in function.

[DinoDoc]

This is where I wish we could drag ADB down here to answer these questions. He's usually in the forums above here.

[Valerian]

 

Also, this new ruling by GK Council is new.  And has seemed to replace the Inquisitorial Council in function.

 

 

Those councils are at different echelons.  The Council of Grand Masters is internal management of the Chamber, whereas the Council of Inquisitors is for the operation of the Ordo.