Seahawk Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Does Power of the Machine Spirit even work? "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots...the Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots..." (p.32) "...may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons.../...can only make Snap Shots." (p.73) "...can only be resolved as Snap Shots" (p.84) "...the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting." (p.169) So, Snap Shots are always BS1, unless a special rule specifically calls it out as not being the case. When a vehicle moves too fast or shoots at a Flyer, it must make Snap Shots. Power of the Machine Spirit does not specifically state it modifies Snap Shots, and therefore never overrides it. Thus, a land raider that moves 6" can only ever fire 1 weapon at its BS4, and the rest at BS1 (one can be at a different target though). If anyone thinks the opposite is true, then Power of the Machine Spirit can be used to shoot at Flyers at BS4 (or 3, if it's an AM tank). There's no distinction between Snap Shots for ground or flying targets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 It works for firing one weapon at a different target. If they wanted it to override Snap Shots, they should have said so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Indeed. GW went the right route of moving from Codex > BRB to Specific > General. But then forgot to update rules *specifically*. Colour me not surprised. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Um, what are you guys on about? You've answered your own questions: Snap fire is always at BS1 unless otherwise stated. Power of the machine spirit allows one more vehicle to fire at normal BS than ordinarily permitted. This isn't modifying the BS of a snap fire, but circumnavigating snap fire. Ergo, using PotMS allows you to move 6" and fire an extra weapon at full BS. Ergo-a-gogo; when firing at a flier and being forced to snapfire, PotMS doesn't change that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 Doesn't it though? What you're saying is that PotMS is taking a Snap Shot at BS4. How is that not modifying it? Ergo, using PotMS allows you to move 6" and fire an extra weapon at full BS. Ergo-a-gogo; when firing at a flier and being forced to snapfire, PotMS doesn't change that. There is zero functional difference between Snap Shots caused by moving fast and Flyers. A Snap Shot is a Snap Shot. Either PotMS overrides none of it (endorsed by the rules) or it overrides all of it (unsubstantiated by the rules). The only rule in the game that overrides Snap Shots (remember, it must specifically state it does so, not just "get around it") is Markerlights: "Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch." Snap Shots are specifically mentioned here. They are not mentioned at all in PotMS. That's why it works for Markerlights and not for PotMS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Cap, the 'normal' BS of a Snap Fire is BS1. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 You can't use Telion to make a Snap Shot BS5 either, so it seems PotMS doesn't affect Snap Shots. Welp, one less reason to take a Techpriest... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 From heroes to zeroes in the blink of an edition. Still handy for the serious tankers though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 both "set" the bs value to either 1 or full bs, SO since its your turn you chose which modifier is set first.Edit: we all know how PoTMS is intended to be used and telling someone the rule is null is just as bad as playing a unprimed screamerstar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 "Full Ballistic Skill" is undefined. The full Ballistic Skill for a Land Raider is 4. The full Ballistic Skill for a Snap Shot, regardless of firer, is 1. When making a Snap Shot, you'd use the latter, and thus still fire at BS1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 both effects SET the bs to a value, either 1 or users BS. once again you uses pemdas, final step is set the value, both set at the same time and since its your turn you apply snapfire, THEN machine spirit it back to full Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Shooting at zooming fliers makes all shots snapshots so wouldnt POTMS make ONE of those shots BS4? The rule for POTMS specifically says "One more" than normal. One more than zero is one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 Exactly, Brother Dean. My friend just mentioned this: "It doesn't effect snap shots, because it isn't MAKING a snap shot. It is allowing one weapon to not be making a snap shot in the first place." While I'd like to believe that, the rules don't specify it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 both effects SET the bs to a value, either 1 or users BS. once again you uses pemdas, final step is set the value, both set at the same time and since its your turn you apply snapfire, THEN machine spirit it back to full Except the new 7th ruling of nothing modifies a Snap Shot unless it specifically says it does. PotMS doesn't specifically say it modifies a Snap Shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 GML: What about my friend's suggestion, that PotMS makes the shot no longer a Snap Shot, but a regular shooting attack subject to the normal rules of shooting. Any thoughts there? His thinking is straighter than mine it seems. He follows with: "Again, it is modifying THAT rule, changing the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS. The number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS is related to movement, PotMS is letting to fire one more weapon than you normally could with a vehicle moving the same speed. When firing at flyers, though, you specifically have to make snap shots, so PotMS would have to be able to modify snap shots to work against flyers." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 The last part. It is not intended to override snap shot. It simply adds onto the normal limit of shots you can fire after moving at full ballistic and allows you to aim hat one weapon at another target. Potms works just the same with vehicles trust has skyfire, allowing one more shot at full ballistic at flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 PotMS works the same as it did in 6th and its because of how the rules are worded. It still has no effect on flyers because the rule simple says that you must make snap shots. There is no mention of how many weapons you can fire so PotMS does not work. As for moving 6" or more as you quoted Seahawk the rule says "...may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons.../...can only make Snap Shots." (p.73) And PotMS says.. "...the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting." (p.169) What PotMS is overriding isn't the second part of the sentence, its the first. Basically a vehicle with PotMS has the 6" rule changed to "...may fire two weapons using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons.../...can only make Snap Shots." (p.73) While cruising speed says something similar to the flyers Hard to Hit rule it still follows the "number of weapons" wording for two reasons one at the top of the section where they talk about moving and shooting it says "..but the number(and accuracy) of the weapons a vehicle can fire in the Shooting phase depends on how fast it moved in that turn's movement phase, as detailed below" Also in the back of the book in the reference section it references number of shots at full BS again, stating for normal vehicles moving at Cruising speed is 0. 0+1 is still 1 so PotMS still works as it always has. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 GML: What about my friend's suggestion, that PotMS makes the shot no longer a Snap Shot, but a regular shooting attack subject to the normal rules of shooting. Any thoughts there? His thinking is straighter than mine it seems. He follows with: "Again, it is modifying THAT rule, changing the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS. The number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS is related to movement, PotMS is letting to fire one more weapon than you normally could with a vehicle moving the same speed. When firing at flyers, though, you specifically have to make snap shots, so PotMS would have to be able to modify snap shots to work against flyers." That's what I said! It isn't changing the BS of snap fire, it's providing a weapon the ability to not have to snap fire. And that is RAW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 Ahh, yea that's what my friend was saying, the part I couldn't quite grasp. Thanks for making it much clearer! PotMS is back in action (just not vs flyers). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 It's good you clarified it. Wouldn't want you shooting down any fliers so easily eh! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 It's good you clarified it. Wouldn't want you shooting down any fliers so easily eh! Or not laying waste to your enemies when moving your LR's ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Hmmm. I suppose the argument you could make is that PotMS isn't changing the BS of a Snap Shot, because you could use PotMS to fire a Blast Weapon. Where as, if it was just modifying the BS of a Snap Shot (back to BS4), which it can't do, you would be unable to PotMS a Blast. There is a subtle difference between shooting at BS4 and shooting a Snap Shot at BS4. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Hmmm. I suppose the argument you could make is that PotMS isn't changing the BS of a Snap Shot, because you could use PotMS to fire a Blast Weapon. Where as, if it was just modifying the BS of a Snap Shot (back to BS4), which it can't do, you would be unable to PotMS a Blast. There is a subtle difference between shooting at BS4 and shooting a Snap Shot at BS4. Or it is preventing a weapon from being Snap Shot in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Wait, so I CAN PoTMS a weapon at BS4? LR may suddenly be mire useful, thankyou guys! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Wait, so I CAN PoTMS a weapon at BS4? LR may suddenly be mire useful, thankyou guys! It depends on what is causing the Snap Shot in the first place. It won't help you shoot down a Flyer at full BS. It will help when moving at Combat Speed. It may help when Cruising. It may help when Shaken/Stunned. It may help when firing Ordnance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292240-power-of-the-machine-spirit/#findComment-3713993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.