Power of the Machine Spirit

[Gentlemanloser]

Unlike the Caveat that you need to state you can modify a Snap Shot?

 

I really don't get the artificial distinction that's trying to be made here between the restricitons.

[Brother Casman]

I'm pretty sure that we're not saying that PotMS modifies Snap Shots, we're saying that PotMS prevents us from ever getting to the Snap Shots in the first place.

[Gentlemanloser]

Then that works for Fliers as well.

 

There is no order of opperation.

 

If you're restricted, you're restricted.

 

Edit;

 

Example (I'll try to make this as in depth as possible)

 

1: You are Shaken.  You target a ground unit.  The Shaken rules restrict you to making a Snap Shot.  PotMS lets you take a shot as normal, over riding the Shaken Snap Shot restriction.

 

 

2: You are shooting at a Flier.  You target the Flier.  The Flier rules then restrict you to making a Snap Shot.  PotMS lets you take a shot as normal, over riding the Flier Snap Shot restriction.

[Captain Idaho]

Unlike the Caveat that you need to state you can modify a Snap Shot?

 

I really don't get the artificial distinction that's trying to be made here between the restricitons.

It's not artificial, you're just choosing not to see it.

 

Your position is thus;

 

"PotMS modifies a snap shot, therfore it doesn't work because it doesn't say it does (as per snap shot rules)."

 

Everyone else has told you thus;

 

"PotMS does not override a snap shot, it creates a situation where you can take a normal shot instead of snap shooting (1 extra)."

 

You're also struggling to differentiate between rules because they use the same mechanic.

 

Shaken and stunned results (for example) dictate a vehicle fires Snap shots in the following turn. PotMS tells us one of these shots can be normal.

 

In contrast, the hard to hit rule states shooting at fliers are always snap shots unless skyfire. PotMS cannot bypass this like normal because it specifies "all and always".

 

Essentially, PotMS does not break any other rules through specification, therefore other rules are still relevant.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Shaken and stunned results (for example) dictate a vehicle fires Snap shots in the following turn. PotMS tells us one of these shots can be normal.

In contrast, the hard to hit rule states shooting at fliers are always snap shots unless skyfire. PotMS cannot bypass this like normal because it specifies "all and always".

 

There is no difference between these two...

 

Stunned dictates a vehicle fires snap shots.

 

Hard to hit decitates a vhielce fire snap shots...

[Brother Casman]

[snip]

 

2: You are shooting at a Flier.  You target the Flier.  The Flier rules then restrict you to making a Snap Shot.  PotMS lets you take a shot as normal, over riding the Flier Snap Shot restriction.

You're still missing a part here: The Flier rules then restrict you to making a Snap Shot, and further restrict you to making Snap Shots unless you also have the Skyfire rule.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm not missing it.  I included it above;

 

 

 

2: You are shooting at a Flier. You target the Flier. The Flier rules then restrict you to making a Snap Shot. PotMS lets you take a shot as normal, over riding the Flier Snap Shot restriction.

 

You don't then get restricted a second time by the same rule.

 

Either it's in place, or it's not.  You don't remove it, then it applies again...

 

 

 

PotMS cannot bypass this like normal because it specifies "all and always".

 

Cap, like Snap Shots specify that you need to specifically mention you can amend them.

 

If you can ignore this by side stepping the rules claiming you're not actually making a Snap Shot (when the rules tell you *all* your shots are Snap Shots), then the same sidestep aplies to the Hard to hit rule.

[Captain Idaho]

No it doesn't. It quantifies "always" for Hard to hit but not shaken or stunned.

[War Angel]

Look at it like this.

 

Normaly when targeting a ground unit, the land raider gets X normal shots. Should something modify the land raider to require to shoot snap shots, PotMS returns one snap shot to a normal shot.

 

PotMS only modifys another modifier. Such as having moved, being stunned.

 

Shooting at a flyer, normaly you only get a snap shot. Thus, PotMS returns your shot to a normal snap shot. Simple.

 

Somewhere in the rule it mentions "normal unit rules still apply"

The real question is, can you shoot at a flyer with snap shots and still fire at a ground unit with normal BS

[Spinsanity]

The wording on Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned says that the vehicle can only fire Snap Shots.

 

So let's assume your Shaken vehicle has moved at combat speed :

- As per the vehicle movement rules, it can fire a single weapon at full BS.

- As per PotMS, it can fire one additional weapon (for a total of two) at full BS.

 

And yet "The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots" as per Crew shaken result. You can argue that one of your weapons still gets full BS, I'd then have to argue that in such a case you're simply not allowed to shoot it at all, since the only shots you're allowed have to be Snap Shots.

[thepowerofwar]

The way my group and every tourni I have played at count it as the "Snap Firing" is the modification and the "Normal" Shooting is firing at the regular BS of the unit. 

 

Which to me the "Normal" BS would be the Units BS with out any changes. So anything that would change that would be a modifier.  

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm.

 

Reading da rules it does say "only" in the same manner in both Hard to Hit and Shaken/Stunned. As such I'm going to have to modify my position to PotMS only affecting the amount of shots you can use when you move (thanks to wording).

 

Oh well. But then who is that scared of Land Raider being even Stunned? ;)

[Raeven]

 

Shaken and stunned results (for example) dictate a vehicle fires Snap shots in the following turn. PotMS tells us one of these shots can be normal.

 

In contrast, the hard to hit rule states shooting at fliers are always snap shots unless skyfire. PotMS cannot bypass this like normal because it specifies "all and always".

 

There is no difference between these two...

 

Stunned dictates a vehicle fires snap shots.

 

Hard to hit decitates a vhielce fire snap shots...

 

There is a difference, and it isn't the word always or only.

 

Every rule in this game is a set of conditions that have to be met to make the rule true.  Hard to Hit is one of those rules.

 

PotMS states, you can make one more additional attack at full BS following normal shooting rules.  As Fibonnaci and others have tried pointing out, numerous times, this means things like firing arcs, range, LoS, "Hard to Hit", and other rules.  PotMS does not override these rules.  It just allows you to make an extra shot following the shooting rules under normal conditions beyond what is allowed.  There are plenty of situations which prevent you from shooting at full BS.  Moving, Firing Ordnance, being Crew Shaken, etc.  Only one condition requires a separate rule in order to override that condition.  Hard to Hit.

 

Hard to Hit is a rule that has a single condition.  In order to shoot flyers, you have to also have the Skyfire rule.  That's it.  It's the same argument as before when people were trying to use Signums to shoot at flyers, and the FAQ's put them down.  You are making a shot following the normal rules.  Up until you decide to shoot at a flyer, your shot is at full or modified BS.  As soon as you decide to shoot at a flyer, if you do not have the skyfire rule, your shot is immediately dictated to be a snap shot.  If you did have skyfire, you could make that shot at full BS or (in the case of a signum) modified BS.

 

 

To surmise.  PotMS does not change the rules that force you to fire snap shots.  It just allows you to shoot a single shot at full BS beyond what is normal.  This shot must still follow all the other rules in the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

PotMS states, you can make one more additional attack at full BS following normal shooting rules.  As Fibonnaci and others have tried pointing out, numerous times, this means things like firing arcs, range, LoS, "Hard to Hit", and other rules.  PotMS does not override these rules.

 

This includes Shaken....

[Raeven]

And there is an argument that can be made there.

 

I've made mine already.  Did you read the whole post?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes.

For example;

To surmise. PotMS does not change the rules that force you to fire snap shots. It just allows you to shoot a single shot at full BS beyond what is normal. This shot must still follow all the other rules in the game.

You are a Hovering Stormraven, that has been Shaken. You have previously shot all your Missiles, and are only armed with a Multi Melta, TL LC and Two Hurricane Bolters.

You move at Combat Speed. Which allows you to fire all your Weapons. In this case that's 4.

Power of the Machine Spirit allows you to fire one additional Weapon. Which would be 5, but you can't fire the same weapon twice anyway. So you can still fire 4 weapons.

You follow all the normal rules for shooting.

Which include;

Crew Shaken: The Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of it's next turn.

PotMS;

In a turn in which the vehicle neither move Flat Out nor uses Smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. <snip> subject to the normal rules for shooting.

The Shooting Phase is;

1: Nominate Unit to Shoot

2: Choose a Target

3: Select a Weapon

4: Roll to Hit

5: Roll to Wound

6: Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties

7: Select Another Weapon.

Taking the SR above;

1: We nominate the SR.

2: Unit selected doesn't matter. Lets assume its a ground target, so we can ignore Hard to Hit for now.

3: We select the MM

4: *Here* is where the Snap Shot rule kicks in

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally

The SR is shaken. All its shots are forced to be Snap Shots.

Does PotMS come into play here? No. It grants another Weapon to be used (Step 7), which follows the rules for shooting.

Of which forced Snap Shots is a normal shooting rule, int he To-hit section of a Shooting Attack.

How can we get round Snap Shots?

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they effect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions

PotMS doesn't specifically state that it effects Snap Shots, so it doesn't.

The SR fire the MM as a Snap Shot.

5: To-wound isn't relevant here

6: Nor is allocation

7: Repeat steps 3-7 for the TL LC, and both Hurricane Bolters.

Here is where PotMS comes into play, and allows you an additional shot.

In our example here, it doesn't do anything, as you've already shot all the wepaons on the SR.

But.

If it did come into play, it would also follow steps 3-7, following all the normal rules for shooting.

Which includes Snap Shots at step 4.

Edit: If you look at the wording of Shooting with Fast Vehicles (Page 88), what PotMs is designed to do, is allow the Cruising Storm Raven to Fire 3 instead of 2 wepaons at full BS, rather than as Snap Shots.

That's the intention (and doesn't touch Shaken/Hard to hit/etc). And really the only thing PotMS (apart form the Split Fire) is designed for.

As to whether is can actually do that, is another discussion. Not one I'd personally rule against if I was playing, as I'm sure it's RAI.

But the RAW is funky due to the Snap Shot rule.

But Hard to hit, Shaken. They *aren't* effected by PotMS in any way.

[War Angel]

Is agree with that logic. But can this allow me to Make a snap shot at a different unit than my other shots in the event I am shaken.

[Gentlemanloser]

Only if PotMS lets you fire an additional Weapon.

 

In the hovering StormRaven example above, you don't get to use PotMS at all, as you can already fire all 4 weapons.

 

The Split fire is;

 

 

 

In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target

 

If PotMS can't let you fire an 'additional' Weapon, you can't use it to shoot as a seperate target.

 

I'm sure that's not the RAI though.

[alex567]

If we take the conditions GL poster earlier:

 

1. Shaken/Stunned

2. Cruising speed

3. Hard to hit

4. Ordinance weapons

 

Conditions 1,2 and 4 result in the vehicle being subject to the snap shot rule before it starts shooting, therefore when we determine number of shots fired the power of the machine spirit shot is in addition to these.

 

Condition 3, the rule for hard to hit explains "...shots resolved..." this occurs after the weapon has started firing meaning power of the machine spirit has already activated and is subject to the normal rules of shooting. It is at the resolution of the shots, i.e. roles to hit, that all shots fired currently are subject to snap shots.

 

Now the reason power of the machine spirit over rides this with regards to 1,2 and 4 is because it is not included in the "... for those shots..." part of the snap shot rule, because the power of the machine spirit rule activates after the snap shot rule.

 

To summarise:

1,2 and 4 snap shot activates first followed by power of the machine spirit.

3 power of the machine spirit activates first followed by snap shot.

 

Even in instances where different weapon types are resolved one at a time snap shot repeatedly activates per shot at the roll to hit stage per weapon, therefore unless the vehicle is subject to 1,2 or 4 power of the machine spirit misses timing, because at this stage only one weapon is subject to snap shot the rest are still at full ballistic skill as per the new rules for shooting. And you can't power of the machine spirit a weapon that is already firing.

[Kristoff]

In the hovering StormRaven example above, you don't get to use PotMS at all, as you can already fire all 4 weapons.

 

Well yeah, as a Hovering Storm Raven moving at Combat Speed can fire ALL weapons, as they are a Fast Skimmer, not a Zooming Flyer.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Conditions 1,2 and 4 result in the vehicle being subject to the snap shot rule before it starts shooting, therefore when we determine number of shots fired the power of the machine spirit shot is in addition to these.

 

No you don't.

 

I showed that above.

 

You work through one weapon at a time, and when you reach step 7 of the Shooting Phase, you move on to another Weapon.

 

This is where PotMS comes into play, allowing you to select another Weapon, you would otherwise have been unable to.

 

Also, the Shaken condition doesn't matter *when* it is applied, you get Shaken in your Opponents Turn (usually).  It matters when you get to Step 4, the To-hit roll.

 

 

 

Well yeah, as a Hovering Storm Raven moving at Combat Speed can fire ALL weapons, as they are a Fast Skimmer, not a Zooming Flyer.         

 

Yup.  Used that exmaple on purpose.

 

To show how and why PotMS is applied.

 

It really is *only* to change the amount of Weapons a vheicle can fire not as Snap Shots due to movement only.

 

Nothing else.  Not Hard to Hit, Shaken/Stunned or Odinance.

[alex567]

When machine spirit activates all shots previous are subject to snap shot in conditions 1,2 and 4. Where as in condition 3 the power of the machine spirit shot becomes snap shot ad per the hard to hit rule. The hard to hit rule specifically states that all shots by the unit are snap shots when the weapon is resolved. Where as the snap shot rule states that at the moment of snap shooting occurring all shots currently able to fire are snap shots.

 

Power of the machine spirit over rules this because it is then in addition to the current shots at snap shots. Re read the snap shot rule the big bold text states that the shots currently allowed to fire are snap shots, the machine spirit basically introduces a weapon after the currently allowed to fire are selected.

 

But with hard to hit it expressly states that all shots by the vehicle become snap shots when the weapon resolves.

 

Basically the power of the machine spirit shot doesn't actually exist for the snap shot rule to affect at the time the snap shot rule activates. It only occurs after the snap shot rule activates and is therefore not subject to it.

 

The hard to hit rule states that it occurs during resolution for ALL weapons shot by the vehicle. So that power of the machine spirit becomes a snap shot when you roll to hit.

[Gentlemanloser]

There is functionally *no* difference between Hard to hit and Shaken/Stunned.

 

You're trying to impose an artificial mechanical difference between these restircitons.

 

If PotMS overrules Shaken/Stunned, then it does so to Hard to Hit as well.

 

 

 

The hard to hit rule states that it occurs during resolution for ALL weapons shot by the vehicle.

 

Can't quote the exact rule, at work.

 

Shaken is, as above;

 

 

 

Crew Shaken: The Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of it's next turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

Grr.  Edit is woky, won't let me add this below my last quote. :(

 

Run through the steps of the Shooting Phase.

 

1: Nominate Unit to Shoot

2: Choose a Target

3: Select a Weapon

4: Roll to Hit

5: Roll to Wound

6: Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties

7: Select Another Weapon.

 

If you want to go the route of 'timing' (outside of Step 4...) then it would look like this;

 

Hard to Hit

 

1: Nominate Unit to Shoot

2: Choose a Target - Targetting a Flier *must make Snap Shots*

3: Select a Weapon

4: Roll to Hit *Snap Shot*

5: Roll to Wound

6: Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties

7: Select Another Weapon *PotMS*

 

Shaken/Stunned

 

1: Nominate Unit to Shoot - Vehicle is Shaken/Stunned *must make Snap Shots*

2: Choose a Target

3: Select a Weapon

4: Roll to Hit *Snap Shot*

5: Roll to Wound

6: Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties

7: Select Another Weapon *PotMS*

 

Both restricitons are in place *after* PotMS has allowed an 'extra' shot.  Both Restricions are used in Step 4 as well, when the To-hit roll is made.

[alex567]

The over view of snap shot is effectively every weapon the vehicle is currently allowed to fire is at snap shot.

 

As power of the machine spirit occurs after this it lies outsiide the currently available weapons to fire. But hard to hit means that snap shot takes affect for EVERY shot as soon ad it starts resolving. So although power of the machine spirit takes affect after the initial machine spirit it is then affected by a new snap shot which occurs when the shot resolves.