Power of the Machine Spirit

[Gentlemanloser]

No it's not.  It's *every* shot made that round, is a Snap Shot.  Not before or after PotMS.

 

Every Shot.

[Raeven]

I get what Alex is saying. My thought is this.

 

0+1 is 1.

 

0+1 without skyfire is still 0.

[Gentlemanloser]

0+1 while shaken/stunned is still 0....

 

I've shown the process, I've listed the rules.

 

There's nothing more I can add to this. :(

[Raeven]

Well, what about cruising speed. Same thing? No potms or yes?

[Gentlemanloser]

Edit: If you look at the wording of Shooting with Fast Vehicles (Page 88), what PotMs is designed to do, is allow the Cruising Storm Raven to Fire 3 instead of 2 wepaons at full BS, rather than as Snap Shots.

That's the intention (and doesn't touch Shaken/Hard to hit/etc). And really the only thing PotMS (apart form the Split Fire) is designed for.

As to whether is can actually do that, is another discussion. Not one I'd personally rule against if I was playing, as I'm sure it's RAI.

But the RAW is funky due to the Snap Shot rule.

But Hard to hit, Shaken. They *aren't* effected by PotMS in any way.

[Raeven]

What about cruising speed with a regular vehicle?  They can only make snap shots.  Do you think PotMS allows them one shot at full BS or not?

[Gentlemanloser]

As I say, the Intention is obviously that PotMS is designed to allow a 'normal' (BS4 for most Marines vehicles) shot instead of a Snap Shot, based on movement restrictions.  But movement restriction only.

 

It's not something I'd argue against in game.

 

The RAW is funky as PotMS is written *badly*, especially combined with the new wording of Snap Shots.

 

This is including a non fast Vehicle moving Cruising Speed, which is a restriction written similarly to Hard to Hit / Shaken / etc.

 

If the next thrust of discussionis going to be "well they're the same", then sure, PotMS can be used to ignore Hard to Hit / Shaken as well...

 

I still say the RAW is borked.

[Raeven]

Then we don't need to discuss this anymore.  I think there is enough info in this thread everyone can make up their minds on their own personal flavor.  :)

[Gentlemanloser]

:)

 

/bow

[Leonaides]

Question- is this conundrum perhaps more resolvable if you consider potms is a rule that affects the vehicle doing the shooting, while hard to hit is a rule affecting the target. Would potms 'override' firing restrictions placed on the firing unit, not rules affecting the targetted unit? I may not be explaining what i think i'm thinking about well but hopefully it makes some sense...

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally get what you're saying.  Hard to hit doesn't really effect the Flier though.

 

It effects the target shooting at the flier.

 

Edit: If it's easier, condsider the Hard to Hit penalty a failure of the Land Raiders ability to track airborne targets. ;)

 

If it's systems were good enough (Skyfire), it wouldn't have this penalty.

 

;)

[Leonaides]

Thats the point tho- potms wouldnt ignore having to snap shot at a flyer because the reason its hsving to snspshot is external to the firing unit, tho potms would work on a shaken/stunned vehicle because the reason for ss is internal to the unit... does that make sense?

[Gentlemanloser]

But it's not external.  Otherwise Skyfire on the unit wouldn't help.

 

It's internal.  The firing system of the vehicle itself isn't good enough to hit a fast moving flier.

 

It's not a 'debuf' the Flier is aplpying (unlike say a Jink save, which is external). 

[Leonaides]

Does a landraider have hard to hit? No. So the rule is external to the unit which is why an internal rule wouldnt alter how it works. Skyfire and hard to hit alter the mechanisms of 'how' the units interact- changing the equation if you will- while potms changes the unit doing the intrracting.

[Gentlemanloser]

Does a Landraider have Shaken/Stunned?

 

Edit: Look, this is just semantics.

 

Hard to Hit is a rule that effects a Land Raider, that is casued by the Land Raider Targetting a Flier.

 

Shaken/Stunned is a rule that effects a Land Raider, this is caused by a roll on the Vehicle Damage Table.

[GreyCrow]

I'd like to share my research that I posted in another thread, but I feel is more appropriate here :

 

Well, some would argue that a Snap Shot has no Ballistic Skill because it is not a model, and the Ballistic Skill of the model that fires a Snap Shot is counted as being BS1 for the purpose of the Snap Shot. This has been discussed already here !

 

An interpretation that makes sense and seemed to be shared by a few B&S members is the following :

- POTMS allows the model to fire one more weapon at full BS than is normally allowed. Full BS is the regular BS for the shot without negative modifiers.

- Number of weapns allowed at full BS when firing a model that jinked : 0

- When applying POTMS, you are allowed to fire one more weapon than normally allowed at full BS, in that case it is only 1 weapon. In addition, you can fire this weapon at a different target

- Knowing that a model can't fire twice with the same weapon unless a special rule allows him to, the controlling player declares firing the weapons he chooses minus 1 at snap shots, then POTMS allows him to fire it without needing to fire a Snap Shot

- POTMS doesn't modify Snap Shots, it allows a weapon not to fire a Snap Shot

 

Other than Snap Shots, what are the situations where a vehicle would fire at a lower BS than 4 ?

- Fear ? Vehicles are immune to Fear

- Psychic Powers ? I don't remember any than reduces the ballistic skill of a model, but I could be mistaken

- Some unique rule for a character or a piece of wargear ? Would POTMS really be written specifically to counter that rule ? Is there any ?

 

In addition, what do you guys make of the Foreboding power :

- It allows the user to fire Overwatch using their full ballistic skill, rather than ballistic skill 1 (written exactly like that on the psychic cards)

- It doesn't mention anything about Snap Shots

- Should we conclude that this power is useless apart from giving counter attack because it doesn't include Snap Shots in its description ?

 

Compare the wording of the Foreboding psychic power from the divination discipine and the POTMS wording. Either you can tell that both are invalid, or both are a completely valid way not to fire snap shots. And no, mentionning Ballistic Skill 1 does NOT mean Snap Shots. It doesn't specifically talk about Snap Shots, therefore it does not modifiy Snap Shots, according to the logic used earlier in that thread.

 

Finally, the 5th edition rulebook did not contain Power of the Machine Spirit in its USR section as far as I can remember. We have to go to the 5th edition C:SM to get a reading of POTMS, which is written as follows :

"A Land Raider may fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons".

The changes between 6th ed USR POTMS and 5th ed C:SM POTMS is the inclusion of "at full Ballistic Skill". The big change to shooting in 6th edition was the inclusion of Snap Shots and the big change to vehicle shooting was that they weren't allowed to shoot more than 1 weapon when moving and now they are allowed to shoot 1 at normal BS and the others as snap shots. Therefore, we can quite easily see why this specific bit of sentence was added to the reviewed USR rule in 6th edition and carried over in 7th edition.

 

That's all I have to say, and to me that's plenty enough in terms of indications about the Rules as Intended : POTMS is used to prevent from firing a Snap Shot in the first place. And I think this can fully extent to all the situations covered here (Jinking, Cruising Speed, Shaken/Stunned and even dare I say firing at fliers, but I'll be willing to let that one slip through if the opponent feels uncomfortable about it), and for all these situations C:SM players are fully in their right to fire an additional shot than normally allowed at Ballistic Skill 4.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

In addition, what do you guys make of the Foreboding power :

- It allows the user to fire Overwatch using their full ballistic skill, rather than ballistic skill 1 (written exactly like that on the psychic cards)

- It doesn't mention anything about Snap Shots

- Should we conclude that this power is useless apart from giving counter attack because it doesn't include Snap Shots in its description ?

 

Yup.

 

By the new RAW, totally.  It doesn't specifically mention Snap Shots.

 

Of course, we all know what the RAI is.

 

And we all know GW both can't write robust, concise rules for toffee, and don't care that they can't.

[GreyCrow]

 

In addition, what do you guys make of the Foreboding power :

- It allows the user to fire Overwatch using their full ballistic skill, rather than ballistic skill 1 (written exactly like that on the psychic cards)

- It doesn't mention anything about Snap Shots

- Should we conclude that this power is useless apart from giving counter attack because it doesn't include Snap Shots in its description ?

 

Yup.

 

By the new RAW, totally.  It doesn't specifically mention Snap Shots.

 

Of course, we all know what the RAI is.

 

And we all know GW both can't write robust, concise rules for toffee, and don't care that they can't.

 

 

Which is why we agree people should not take the RAW too literally when they don't seem to make sense compared to what was instinctively perceived as the RAI. The Foreboding example is golden (and exactly what I was looking for as a comparable example to POTMS).

[Gentlemanloser]

To be honest, unless it's in the Home Brew section, I find discussing RAI pointless.

 

Either it's something everyone agrees on, hoorah!  And there's no point to the discussion.

 

Or it's something that folk have widely different interpretations of.  And there's no point to the discussion. ;)

[Quozzo]

 

That's just it. It isn't modifying a snap shot. It is modifying the conditions which cause you to make snap shots. Because it doesn't modify the specific condition that allows you to shoot at flyers at full bs, it does not allow one more than normal shot at full ballistic at flyers.

 

I don't get this.

 

1: Shaken/Stunned makes you Snap Shot.

2: Moving Cruising Speed makes you Snap Shot.

3: Targeting a Flyer makes you Snap Shot.

4: Shooting an Ordinance Weapon makes you Snap Shop.

 

Does PotMS modify the condition which causes you to make a Snap Shot?

 

All four of those are conditions that cause you to make a Snap Shot.

 

Why does PotMS only negate conditions 2 and 4, and not 1 or 3?

 

There is *no* specific condition specified in the PotMS rule.

 

3. You need a rule to negate snap shooting at fliers. As such, snap shooting at fliers is "normal". 

1, 2, 4. Are rules imposed on the shooting vehicle when certain temporary criteria are met. PotMS can thus ignore those temporary rules as that is not the "normal" BS.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

3. You need a rule to negate snap shooting at fliers. As such, snap shooting at fliers is "normal". 
1, 2, 4. Are rules imposed on the shooting vehicle when certain temporary criteria are met. PotMS can thus ignore those temporary rules as that is not the "normal" BS.

 

Number 3 is a rule imposed on the shooting vehicle when certain temporary criteria are met.

[Quozzo]

 

3. You need a rule to negate snap shooting at fliers. As such, snap shooting at fliers is "normal". 

1, 2, 4. Are rules imposed on the shooting vehicle when certain temporary criteria are met. PotMS can thus ignore those temporary rules as that is not the "normal" BS.

 

Number 3 is a rule imposed on the shooting vehicle when certain temporary criteria are met.

 

That's not true, you always take snap shots at fliers, unless you have Skyfire. That rule is on fliers, not the shooting vehicle and is "always on".

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not on the flyer.

 

It's a rule on the vehicle, when it chooses to target a flyer.

 

It's temporary, and only applies when you select a flier as your target in the shooting phase.

 

Edit: For clarity,  Hard to Hit is a property of the Zoom movement.

 

Zooming is only available (currently) to Fliers.  But Fliers (some at least) don't have to Zoom.  And Hard to hit isn't 'always on' a Flier.

 

If a unit targets *anything* that is Zooming, the shooting unit is effected by Hard to Hit.

 

Edit2: Anyway, semantics aside, Hard to Hit is still a temporary condition that only applies to the shooting unit under a set circumstance.

 

It is no different to being subjected to shaken or stunned.

[Kristoff]

It's not on the flyer.

 

It's a rule on the vehicle, when it chooses to target a flyer.

 

It's temporary, and only applies when you select a flier as your target in the shooting phase.

 

Edit: For clarity, Hard to Hit is a property of the Zoom movement.

 

Zooming is only available (currently) to Fliers. But Fliers (some at least) don't have to Zoom. And Hard to hit isn't 'always on' a Flier.

 

If a unit targets *anything* that is Zooming, the shooting unit is effected by Hard to Hit.

By which, Hard To Hit is still on the Flyer.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless something else in the game gains the ability to Zoom. /shrug

 

A Flier that is Hovering isn't 'Hard to Hit'.

 

(And then we get into a Hovering Flier isn't a Flier, and only Fliers are Hard to Hit. /shrug  It's still no different to a Shaken Landraider.)

 

Case in point;

 

 

 

you always take snap shots at fliers, unless you have Skyfire. That rule is on fliers, not the shooting vehicle and is "always on".

 

You always take snap shots when you're shaken.  That rule is on the vehicle and is 'always on'.

 

When you're not Shaken, the rule is off.  When a Flier isn't Zooming, Hard to Hit is off.