Opinions on Elite / Heavy slot options?

[Kilofix]

My Elite options are:

• Apothecaries - each attached to my 3 large Tac squads
• Contemptor Mortis - for anti-air
• Rapier - for anti-armor
• Terminators - because 2+ does well against regular blob Tacs

 

Does anyone do Elites differently?

 

 

My Heavy options are:

• Spartan (Dedicated Transport - so doesn't take a slot)
• LR Archilles
• Vindicator
• Sicaran
• Predator Squad 1-3 (variable config)
• Medusa Squad 1-3
• Grave Wardens
• Heavy Support Squad with Missile Launchers (could count as Troops with DG: The Reaping RoW)

 

I've done combinations of the above but haven't settled on a consistent list yet. What have others been doing for their 3 heavy slots?

 

Consider 3000pt level. Death Guard Legion.

 

Thanks for the opinions.

[Scribe]

Tough calls.

 

In elites i've ran or ran against.

 

Terminator Heavy

Contemptor/Mortis Heavy

Apothecaries

 

A combination of the 3 is not a failing, my group loves Walkers, so we see a lot of Contemptors in play.

 

Heavies, Spartans seem to be a given at that level of points, but if you bring Terminators...so I like Pred Squads, or what I am working up to, Basilisks. I like the Sicaran, but its left me underwhelmed the last few games.

[Moonstalker]

Standard disclaimers, all IMO, grain of salt with my advice, etc.

 

Elites

 

Top picks-

Apothecaries: Great value for points, getting 3 in one slot is a pretty decent spend for the second-most-contested force org slot.

Contemptor-Mortis: Not as good of a use of the slot (would be awesome if you could take a talon of these), but still desirable for its mix of AA, firepower, and durability.  If they were priced the same as standard contemptors, they'd be lower priority, but being cheaper they're a great pick.

Terminators: Cheap combiweapons, 2+/5++ relentless or 2+/4++ S&P, good dedicated transport options (can take spartan and pack great value into single elites slot), low price comparable to Space Wolf terminators in 40k with option of cheap power axe loadout that can still fight other terminators.  Lack of deep strike is a bit annoying.

 

 

Situational-

Rapiers: Best with laser destroyers or graviton and used as an anti-tank battery.  Having such strong anti-tank in an elites slot is a powerful thing, but I think the unit is ultimately held back by its low mobility and iffy durability.  In a meta with a lot of Spartans, the graviton option might bump this into a top pick slot because of the ability to strip hull points with haywire and potentially immobilize the spartan through difficult terrain.

Veterans: Vet tactics, special weapons, boatloads of melee attacks.  Suffer for being expensive and not being any more durable than tactical marines.  Five man squad is hardly worth it, ten man squad starts to look worthwhile (paying 5.5 points per model for your choice of USR and an extra attack over tacticals).  Second tier because of the expensive upgrades that you need to buy to really differentiate them from tacticals, and because they kinda want to be an assault unit but don't have a Phobos transport option.

 

 

Non-competitive-

Contemptor Talon: Overcosted

Dreadnought Talon: Overcosted

Mortis Dreadnought: Overshadowed by Contemptor-Mortis

Destroyers: Expensive, don't really have a good battlefield role.  In a large enough battle, I could see fielding a squad of them solely for the rad missiles.  The -1 Toughness could be a big help when it comes to bringing down Thanatars, Primarchs, WB greater daemon allies, etc.  Otherwise, what?  I'm supposed to get excited about paying 30 points for marine statlines?  The double bolt pistols that only match what a bolter puts out at 12 inches, and can't Fury of the Legion?  The 'extra' melee attack from BP + CCW that you could have on a tactical squad for still less than these guys cost?  Short-range phosphex bombs that you might accidentally scatter back on yourself?  Seriously, a 3 inch average scatter, 6 inch range and a 1.5 inch radius template... you WILL kill yourself with it at some point.

 

 

 

 

Heavy:

 

Top picks-

Spartan: Flare Shield/Armored Ceramite for survivability, the transport capacity you need for terminators/attached HQ, mobile laser rave party.  Should really be a lord of war, but they probably didn't want you to have to spend your LoW slot just to move your terminators around.

Sicaran: Biggest negative is it's not a squadron.  Otherwise, good armor values, resistant to krak grenades, great firepower, good fire on the move capability, fair price.

Sicaran Venator: Most of the pluses from the normal sicaran, but its anti-tank capabilities are relatively more valuable with the new damage table in seventh ed.  Additional negative in that the ordnance main gun makes the other weapons on it superfluous (LRBT syndrome)

Predator Squadron: Cheap AV13 spam, predator autocannon makes it better than its 40k counterparts by, y'know, having twice the shots, recently received cheaper lascannon sponsons in the Crusade book, Machine Spirit upgrade can give the tank good fire on the move ability or let you split shots (lascannons at heavy tanks, autocannons at light ones).  Executioner/heavy bolter is the other strong option.  Other load outs are situational.

WW Scorpius: Good armor values, good price, excellent marine-killing weapon, provides better S8 AP3 fire than missile squad for the points, barrage allows it to target side armor values for easier kills on Predators/Sicarans/Contemptors.

 

 

Situational-

Land Raiders: Generally overshadowed by the Spartan, but a Phobos could give a small terminator squad the mobility it needs just like it does in 40k.  Proteus can actually be a really good bargain heavy tank (220 for av14, two TL lascannons, machine spirit, and armored ceramite seems like a deal...).  Lack of assault ramps reduces the schizo "am I an assault vehicle or am I a heavy tank?" issue that the Phobos has always suffered from.  Transport capacity could still allow it to move a squad onto an objective while providing anti-tank fire.  The Augury web upgrade can give this heavy tank some additional utility in exchange for a some points and some transport capacity you might not've been using anyway, but it is quite a few points.  Again, situational usefulness.  Given the existence of the Achilles Alpha, I wouldn't take a normal Achilles. 

Artillery: WW of all flavors is noncompetitive, Basilisk loses out to the Medusa based entirely on the gun.  Medusa is a strong option, great anti-tank (hits flare-shielded spartans on side armor because of barrage...), great anti-infantry.  Do not bother with phosphex shells for them, the S10 AP2 is better in just about every situation.  Kind of relies on numbers which make them situational, as you might not have enough points to bring enough (at least two) plus the nuncio voxes for your tacticals.  A single Medusa might struggle to get any damage out vs an opponent who keeps good spacing and makes suitable sacrifices to the dice gods.  A full squadron of Medusas can fairly reliably bust open Spartans in one or two turns or wipe out (or zone out) entire 20 man tactical squads.

Heavy Support Squad: They're here basically because they carry expensive guns and aren't tougher than tactical marines.  It might be something I harp on a lot, but death comes fairly easily to marines in the high-firepower environment of 30k.  Top choices for guns are autocannons, missile launchers, and volkite culverins.  They're all in a sweet spot/middle ground of range, strength, rate of fire, and cost.  There are other, better lascannon carriers, and I would almost never outfit them with lascannons.  Heavy flamers and heavy bolters are pretty worthless to me.  Multimeltas are of limited utility in 30k.  Plasma cannons are worth (carefully) considering, and they should be weighed against the option of a squadron of Predator Executioners.

 

 

Noncompetitive-

Deathstorm Drop Pod: Augury scanners/contemptor-mortis dreadnoughts/interceptor fire in general/lack of drop pod assault/takes up a very valuable heavy support slot.

Vindicator: Better off than in 40k because of armored ceramite and machine spirit options that make the tank more mobile and more durable than ever before.  Lasdestroyer swap for the demolisher cannon turns it from assault gun into tank destroyer, which is a bit of fluffy realism that appeals to me.  However, lack of squadron option, short range, and availability of Medusas pushes it down the list.

[tdemayo]

Standard disclaimers, all IMO, grain of salt with my advice,

Land Raiders: Generally overshadowed by the Spartan, but a Phobos could give a small terminator squad the mobility it needs just like it does in 40k.  Proteus can actually be a really good bargain heavy tank (220 for av14, two TL lascannons, machine spirit, and armored ceramite seems like a deal...).  Lack of assault ramps reduces the schizo "am I an assault vehicle or am I a heavy tank?" issue that the Phobos has always suffered from.  Transport capacity could still allow it to move a squad onto an objective while providing anti-tank fire.  The Augury web upgrade can give this heavy tank some additional utility in exchange for a some points and some transport capacity you might not've been using anyway, but it is quite a few points.  Again, situational usefulness.  Given the existence of the Achilles Alpha, I wouldn't take a normal Achilles.  .

I've been toying with the idea of a squadron of three Proteus with no upgrades, keeping them as cheap as possible. Heavy armour seems to have gotten a significant boost in 7th edition. Keep them at the bac, away from melta guns, and a foe would have a hard time chewing through 12 hull points. 6 twin linked las cannons are nothing to laugh at either.

[Kilofix]

Is there any reason to use the Scorpius over the Plasma Predator? Seems like (except for Barrage) the latter can do everything the former can and possibly more.

[Moonstalker]

In a word?  Feel No Pain.

 

Okay, technically, that's three words, but when we consider what is maybe the most common troops choice (tactical blob with attached apothecary) the WW Scorpius is the winner there.  It has the extra point of str needed for double toughing and getting through FNP.  AP2 or AP3 is irrelevant when we're talking about power armored targets, either will get the job done, and both of them have high enough str to get a 2+ to wound.  But the Scorpius will do a better job at denying saves (cover and FNP) than the Executioner will.  You also have a little bit of extra range and the option of trying to barrage snipe that pesky apothecary.  The Scorpius also will handle the majority of vehicles better - it can at least glance AV14, it will hit side armor on Predators/Sicarans/Contemptors (and be able to penetrate, while the Executioner has to work/move to get side armor shots and may just be trying to glance the front AV13 with its S7 gun when pressed into an anti-tank role).

 

If your local meta is more terminator-heavy/you fight against PotL lists more often, then the Executioner is going to be the better choice - denying feel no pain becomes less important than denying the 2+ save.

[Kilofix]

Ahh good points kit. Looks like I'll need to get a Scorpius.

[MiR]

It can be an similar choice:

- The Scorpius has no mobility, gives you more Range and with Str 8 it can instakill HQs.

- Pred with Plasma can be given the MaschineSpirit Upgrade for more mobility but become expensive. Has AP2 and fires always 3 Blasts.

 

I would say the coice depends  on youre playstyle and if you need Ap 3 or 2 more in youre army.

[Brofist]

I'm a big fan of the command tank upgrade for predator executioners- which turns them into a 36" interceptor bubble in your backfield. If you give it sponsons then you can fire your plasma at a drop pod/terminator blob when they come in clumped up in a ball, then on your turn drive away or shoot at more targets with your sponsons.

[TheForgottenAngel]

The scorpius is also dirt cheap in points which allows for more unit upgrades/bodies!

[grand_master85]

Definitely agree with the choice of the Scorpius.

 

The only limiting factor for it is that you can only have one per HS slot as opposed to upto 3 Predator Exexutioners. Also the Pred has access to AP2, useful for those rear shots to AV10

[Tiger9gamer]

how would you rate three predators (two with lascannons one vanilla) compared to a full autocannon heavy squad with a siege breaker? 

[Kilofix]

The problem I have with Autocannon is that it isn't strong enough to take down AV14 or AV13 vehicles reliably and that it doesn't have AP2 or AP3 vs TDA or MEQ.

 

Against lighter infantry, I already have plenty of stuff.

 

 

I've gone ahead and gotten a Scorpius and 2 Plasma Preds for my heavy, in addition to the 2 Medusas I already have from my 40K IG. Spartan is also already auto-include as a Dedicated Transport for my TDA.

[Armond]

I am also looking at a Scorpius, but my problem is that I only get one heavy slot in my RoW for Night Lords!  I could totally work with having one of them sitting back with my Autocannon Heavy Support Squad and MoS!

[Tiger9gamer]

same problem with the RG i'm planning on making. only one heavy support leaves a lot of choices to be made. So far Its a tie bewteen a ten man devastator squad with either missiles or auto cannons with a siege breaker for tank hunter, a Predator squad with a lot of autocannons and lascannons, that one sicaran with the huge gun, or a two baskilisks.

[Moonstalker]

If I could only take one heavy support, it'd be either a Predator squadron or a squadron of Land Raider Proteus's.  The latter probably only in a really large game, like 3k points.  That much AV14 would give you a solid brick to anchor the rest of your list, and possibly carry some squads.  With power of the machine spirit on all three of them, you can split some fire out of the squad if you don't need six TLLC to kill one thing.  It may be better to spend those points on a Lord of War, though - a Fellblade, Glaive, or Falchion brings the same amount of HP, similar AV, better split fire ability, and a really heavy gun that the Proteus just doesn't have an answer for.

 

With the Predator squad in a smaller game, you can scrape together some of the weapons you might normally need from several heavy support choices and potentially use Power of the Machine Spirit to handle target priority issues.  For instance, maybe you need that TEQ killing Executioner and some anti-tank firepower.  It will be expensive, but you can make it work - grab two AC/LC preds and a Exec/LC/Machine Spirit pred.  You can now throw 6 lascannon and 8 autocannon shots at a tank/squadron, and fire off the executioner cannon at some infantry.  Normally I would object to spending so many points on a Predator (that executioner will be like 175) but you can help guarantee that you get your money's worth by positioning your other, cheaper predators in front of it so that they die first.  It's not perfect, but I think it might be the best use of the slot in terms of having access to the tools/weapons you need and having a good number of AV13 hull points that your opponent will need to chew through.

[coloroutofspace]

I'd mostly agree with kitwulfen's picks.

Sicarian Venator does take a valuable slot, but that 2 shot ordnance is a very effective weapon against vehicles and it doesn't really need any sponson weapons on top of that. And at that point level, you're likely to see some super-heavies.

Whirlwind Scorpius - again, takes up a slot, and... well, from my experience it's not worth pointing at vehicles of any kind if there's an infantry unit in range. Multiple barrage is much better than the 3 blasts from Plasma Executioner but at that point level, I'd rather have an Executioner squadron or a few Medusas (without phosphex) in that slot.

Fire Raptor - if you like flyers :) but seriously the weapon loadout on that gunship is really impressive.

I wouldn't go with an Achilles or Achilles Alpha, because apart from being difficult to destroy (unless you have a Venator) they don't bring much to the game in my opinion. A Spartan is so much better.

As to the Heavy Support Squad, I'd take Volkites (or Heavy Flamers for an outflanking/podded unit). For some additional anti-tank Rapiers are better. Also Rapier Quad Mortars are cheap, accurate and can force the opponent to roll a lot of armor saves.

[Brofist]

Rapiers are really outstanding elite options. Their only drawback is being stationary, but 4w T7 or T8 artillery for about 150 points is a bargan.

 

how would you rate three predators (two with lascannons one vanilla) compared to a full autocannon heavy squad with a siege breaker?

 

That autocannon squad is too expensive with the attached siege breaker and since you have no spare wounds in the squad as soon as it takes casualties you're looking at decreased performance. If you go down that route you're best option is to play as IWs and grab some havocs. Plop them on a bastion with a fuel dump and you're looking at a BS5 unit with cover saves, tank hunters, and -1 to cover saves.

[Galron]

Apothacaries with the Interceptor auspex are by far the best elite choice followed by a Mortis Contemptor with Kheres. Both pay for themselves easily in most games I have played.I don't usually use any other elites as it is not a really valuable spot for me.

 

Heavy is easily the most contested spot for me.

Fire Raptor is my top pick. Survivable, loads of firepower and the ability to use it, whats not to like?

Sicaran- Great battle tank especially with lascannons and ceramite armor.

Heavy Support Squads- Culverins a vicious squad especially with medics with the Interceptor Auspex item. Nasty vs drop pod armies, say good by to any normal squad that deep strikes in..

                                     - Missile launchers- also great with intercept. Took out 3/4 of an outflanking black(death, whichever one rides bikes) knight squad last game(in addition to other stuff) then tied up a chaplain in close combat the rest of the game.

Caestus- Its a flyer with a big melta blast, whats not to like? Oh yeah it carries things too not that I use flyers for this.

 

I tend to field Orbital Assault or Terror Assault so I tend to go for flyers and troops over heavy vehicles so I am going to be a bit biased. Spartan is ok but not an auto-include like the Fire Raptor.

 

Deathstorm is a nice drop pod in an orbital assault list, but I can see its use in a normal list. With FWs clarification on its use it is costly but usually earns its points back for me or at least is a thorn in my opponent's side(or center where I usually drop it) that he has to devote forces to kill. Oh no it lost a krak launcher, I only have 4 more.

[Moonstalker]

Galron, you might have some mea culpas to say to your Ravenwing opponent.  The Augury Scanner only grants interceptor flire at units that arrive via deepstrike within 18 inches.  It doesn't grant interceptor against outflankers.

[Galron]

No joke? I thought it was reserves like standard interceptor. Yeah Ill say something. Not like they would have survived my Caestus and my moritat led destroyer squad which outflanked right behind them though, might have killed the missile squad though. He actually brought the knights  with chaplain plus 2 regular squads and squeezed them in to try and rapid fire the missile squad so I had a solid block to drop the melta hit on.