Thoughts about HH BA, DA, SW?

[Kilofix]

Wondering if anyone anticipates that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves Legions will be much cooler than their 40K representations OTHER THAN the fact that they'll be in MK II - MK V armor (which is the case for all HH Legions)? If yes, for what Legion specific reason(s)?

 

I guess for BA, having Sanguinius around alone would be a big reason, but anything else? I haven't read all the HH books yet, and am not aware of anything else special with BA, DA or SW in the Heresy Era. I've mostly been reading the books focused on the Traitor Legions.

 

Thanks for the insights.

[b1soul]

Wondering if anyone anticipates that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves Legions will be much cooler than their 40K representations OTHER THAN the fact that they'll be in MK II - MK V armor (which is the case for all HH Legions)? If yes, for what Legion specific reason(s)?

 

I guess for BA, having Sanguinius around alone would be a big reason, but anything else? I haven't read all the HH books yet, and am not aware of anything else special with BA, DA or SW in the Heresy Era. I've mostly been reading the books focused on the Traitor Legions.

 

Thanks for the insights.

 

What makes the Heresy-Era DA, BA, and SW cooler than their 40K incarnations, other than cool Heresy-era armour? Am I understanding you correctly? 

 

Their primarchs, cool Heresy-era vehicles, cool Heresy-era weaponry (volkite, conversion, graviton, etc.), cool Heresy-era formations (destroyers and I believe there are several others), cool Heresy-era legion-specific special formations (take the Sons of Horus for example: Reavers, Justaerin, and I believe I'm missing one)

 

Anyway, if you haven't notice by now, Heresy-era legions are pretty cool

[Kilofix]

I apologize if I wasn't as clear initially. I was wondering if we're anticipating anything special with BA, DA, SW other than the usual stuff that all the other Legions also get (i.e. the Crusade Army List).

 

Sanguinius will be awesome. And I know we would expect BA, DA, SW specific Terminators.

 

But was there anything else markedly different with pre-heresy BA, DA, SW? I'm assuming no?

[b1soul]

I apologize if I wasn't as clear initially. I was wondering if we're anticipating anything special with BA, DA, SW other than the usual stuff that all the other Legions also get (i.e. the Crusade Army List).

 

Sanguinius will be awesome. And I know we would expect BA, DA, SW specific Terminators.

 

But was there anything else markedly different with pre-heresy BA, DA, SW? I'm assuming no?

 

Legion-specific formations. Perhaps special variants of vehicles, dreadnoughts, weapons, etc. 

 

The Blood Angels might have a nascent Death Company for those afflicted by the Red Thirst (as the Black Rage hasn't been triggered yet though the seeds of the the Black Rage might have been planted at Signus). 

 

The Space Wolves might have early Wulfen companies. They did unleash Wulfen at Prospero. As for the DA, I'm not really sure. Would love to see the Thramas Crusade covered in Conquest. 

 

If you're looking for something even more special (i.e. if you think legion-specific formations are not special because every legion has legion-specific formations, I'm not sure what else there is) 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The Space Wolves might have early Wulfen companies. They did unleash Wulfen at Prospero.

I'd be disappointed if they didn't. I don't quite get what you mean by 'early Wulfen companies' though. This is the era when the 13th ran with the rest of the Wolves, Wulfen and marked marines were present at a level not replicated after the 13th disappeared. So Wulfen really should feature.

[b1soul]

 

what you mean by 'early Wulfen companies' though. 

 

"Early" as in "Heresy-era" 

 

There might be Wulfen berserker companies other than the 13th Company  

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

what you mean by 'early Wulfen companies' though. 

 

"Early" as in "Heresy-era" 

 

There might be Wulfen berserker companies other than the 13th Company  

 

I'd say there shouldn't be. The point of the 13th is that all the Wulfen-touched in the Legion were concentrated into one Great Company (bearing in mind that each GC in the Heresy era would be much larger than their 40k descendents). Having Wulfen in the other 12 would be an annoying retcon imo.

[Brother Sanvael]

We should see the Sanguinary Guard led by Azkaellon in heresy format. Hopefully they release some more models for them, but they may not, we'll see.

 

Sky Chariots would be another that would be great to see

[Balthamal]

SW I've already touched on in another thread but yeah the 13th Great Company will be an interesting one.

 

Blood Angels I'm undecided on at the moment. Whilst some of their stuff will look great, a lot of what makes them unique in 40k are either already in 30k (assault squads as troops) or missing altogether (death company). Be interesting to see the FW for them giving the incredible job they've done with the 12 Legions covered thus far.

 

Ones I'm looking forward to the most are the DA. Between the Wings mentioned in Unremembered Empire and the forthcoming novel by DA (appropriate enough) that's going to detail their relics and more estoric weaponry. Plus all those cool sculpts for robes etcs. Defo the ones I've got the most anticipation for.

[b1soul]

 

I'd say there shouldn't be. The point of the 13th is that all the Wulfen-touched in the Legion were concentrated into one Great Company (bearing in mind that each GC in the Heresy era would be much larger than their 40k descendents). Having Wulfen in the other 12 would be an annoying retcon imo.

 

I suppose so

 

There could be arguments for concentrating them into one large company but there could also be arguments for spreading them out

 

Wulfen are not unknown to turn on their comrades. Having Wulfen squads scattered across the legion could be one way of handling them. Each Wulfen squad or handful of Wulfen squads would a be small minority in a Great Company mostly consisting of non-Wulfen marines who watch over them.

 

There have been so many retcons so far. I don't think it would be a big deal as long as it makes sense or spices things up a bit. 

 

... 

[Týr]

As far as I know they have pushed the book Inferno (VI and XV Legions + Custodes and Sisters of SIlence) because they needed time to make all the rules and minis required for the book.

 

So I think it's fair to expect some speciel stuff for those Legions. 

[KaosRaptor]

Though the BA haven't really interested me 40k setting (I think the James Swallow books may have put me off) I'm really looking forward to what FW does with them for the Heresy. Sanguinius alone is almost certainly going to be a magnificent sculpt, and judging by some of the stuff they've put out recently - have you seen those Word Bearer armor sets? -  the BA are going to have some great models. Are they being covered during Signus Prime or not until Terra?

 

About the Dark Angels, I'm not terribly sure what happens with their timeline; has the split between the Fallen and the "loyalists" happened yet? Or does that happen after Terra? Actually kind of looking forward to them either way. Really interested in reading about what they've been up to during the Heresy - all I really know about is their split and what I've heard about their encounter(s) with the Night Lords. Hope they tie in some stuff about the monastic orders - those should hopefully still have some influence on the First by that point.

[Retaliation]

Caliban falls during the scouring as the Lion returns home. It was the death of the 1st, and birth of the Unforgiven.

 

Really I hope they represent that the Dark Angels are going to be the masters of the more universal legion elements (like tactical squads). As the 1st legion, nothing like them had existed before (Thunder Warriors are close I suppose). They needed to come up with entirely new tactics and strategies that took into account their new physiology and equipment. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that things like tactical and assault squads were originally conceived by the 1st. The real quirk about the Dark Angels though is that they created specialized "wings" made up of specialists to make up for the fact that they were ultimately alone during the early crusade, unable to call upon other legions for their expertise.

 

So in addition to all the archeotech, I hope for rules that that encourage supporting interaction between friendly units like say pinning on a tactical squad to pave way for an assault squad follow up. Think tau in power armor.

[Legatus]

Curiously enough, all of those three Legions/Chapters are substantially "cooler" in their 40K incarnations than they were during the Crusade and the Heresy.

 

30K Blood Angels are Blood Angels without the Death Company. More "vanilla" than they are in 40K.

 

30K Dark Angels are Dark Angels without the Hunt for the Fallen. Again, more "vanilla" than they are in 40K.

 

Space Wolves are still Space Wolves, though this time it is the reverse, the addition of werewolf units makes the 30K army more tacky than the 40K counterpart. Perhaps not as bad as Marines riding on wolves, but still I would prefer if "werewolf units" are part of their ancient sagas, instead of an actual unit choice.

 

The Blood Angels and the Dark Angels both are defined by how they were influenced by the events of the Horus Heresy. So of course in a setting prior to those events they will be lacking some of their character. The Space Wolves remained more or less the same after the Heresy, though confining wolfy units to the realm of legends helped a lot in their case.

[Sevatar]

Dark Angels were cooler. You have much more detail on the wings, such as the Dreadwing.

Dark Angels - Deathwing Terminators, of course.

An elite power armour unit - Dreadwing or an elite Veteran squad, like Templar Brethren.

 

Blood Angels - Sanguinary Guard, but actually good in 30k , unlike their disappointing 40k rules.

Elite Terminators/proto death company/Red thirst squad.

 

White Scars - Keshig! 

Elite bike/ veteran squad.

 

Wolves - Wulfen 

Terminator - Huscarls?

 

Also, I wouldn't worry about boring. Forge World have proved they can reinvent the Legions. Their background on the Raven Guard and Iron Hands is spectacular, adding new traits to previously simple Legions. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Curiously enough, all of those three Legions/Chapters are substantially "cooler" in their 40K incarnations than they were during the Crusade and the Heresy.

 

30K Blood Angels are Blood Angels without the Death Company. More "vanilla" than they are in 40K.

 

30K Dark Angels are Dark Angels without the Hunt for the Fallen. Again, more "vanilla" than they are in 40K.

 

Space Wolves are still Space Wolves, though this time it is the reverse, the addition of werewolf units makes the 30K army more tacky than the 40K counterpart. Perhaps not as bad as Marines riding on wolves, but still I would prefer if "werewolf units" are part of their ancient sagas, instead of an actual unit choice.

 

The Blood Angels and the Dark Angels both are defined by how they were influenced by the events of the Horus Heresy. So of course in a setting prior to those events they will be lacking some of their character. The Space Wolves remained more or less the same after the Heresy, though confining wolfy units to the realm of legends helped a lot in their case.

That logic reads more like a general condemnation of the Heresy expansion in general. And can be applied to most of the 30k Legions, their central theme is different from their 40k equivalent.

 

'30k Death Guard are Death Guard without Nurgle. More "vanilla" than they are in 40K.'

 

'30k Iron Hands are Iron Hands without angst over Istvaan.'

 

How could Wulfen be an ancient saga in 30k? There's not been enough time, it is the ancient times where legends are forged. Did you have a problem with the 13th Company EoT list? I'd say TWC are far more tacky than the Wulfen, an integral part of Wolf background for decades.

 

All the Legions have different character than in 40k. So instead of 40k BAs, hiding their shameful flaw whilst struggling against it, we'll see the IX Legion. Exemplars of the Ideals of the Great Crusade, led by arguably the greatest of the Primarchs. The Emperor's Paladins.

 

Instead of the paranoid, borderline treacherous Unforgiven of 40k, we'll see the I Legion. The first Astartes, steeped in glory and the Knightly aesthetic of Caliban. Yet maybe slightly resentful, as their initial place of honour as the pre-eminent Legion is under question thanks to the rise of Legions like the XVI. Their Primarch, too cold and untrusting to be the chosen one, despite his undeniable tactical competence.

 

Instead of the principled, humanitarian SWs of 40k, we have the VI legion. Hatchet-men and killers with a reputation far closer to the ill-repute of the VIII, XII and XIV than their fellow Loyalists. Especially for the Wolves, the path that results in such a change in character between 30 and 40k is fascinating.

[Kilofix]

Thanks all. These replies have given me the things to consider that I was looking for.

[Kasper_Hawser]

For myself, I anticipate the following for the Heresy era DA, BA and SW

 

BA: Usual BA rules regarding deepsriking accuracy, and since Signus Prime already happened, having the Red Thirst rule isn't out of place ass well. Actually most of their current rules suit them very well, combined with a flying and fast Sanguinus. Don't see much changes needed to make them awesome in Heresy era.

 

For Sanguinus himself: at the risk of being heretical, probably stats like a Bloodthirster and plays like one as well. Outfighting nearly every primarch in skill except Horus and Angron, since those two are explicitly said to be the only ones Sanguinus can hold a candle too.

 

Space Wolves - Again, their current rules suit them well, a disciplined (yes, the sons of Russ ARE disciplined) force that is capable of both shooting yet surprisingly good at assault. Use of Fenrisian Wolves would already be used but not Thunderwolf Cav. And their Rune Priests would have lots of cool powers of the anti-psyker side which sadly, their 40K counterparts have lost a great deal since latest FAQ.  

 

Leman Russ - I think he would be an army buffer instead of a beatstick, similar to Logan Grimnar. As much a fan of a wolf I am, I don't hear stories of Russ being particularly good at close combat compared to his brothers, whereas Angron, Sanguinus and Horus are widely considered to be the best duelists and fighters. Maybe like Vulkan, he excels at bringing down loads of troops, instead of one on one fighting. I imagine that he has virtually every Saga in the rule book, Saga of Majesty for leadership, Saga of Beastslayer for monster hunting, Saga of Bear etermal warrior, and the most devastating of all, Saga of Warrior born, which WOULD make him an owner of squad killing.

 

Dark Angels - We already know that Deathwing, Ravenwing and greenwing seem to have existed in the Lion's era. So perhaps they can all be still used except with more heresy era weapons, with maybe a bit more plasma as per the old fluff.

 

Lion El Johnson - Again, not too sure of his combat prowess, but should be something of the middle tier combat primarchs like Russ, Khan, Kurze, Corax those who actually get their hands dirty but not specialise in it. Again, he could be an army buffer as well given he is suppose to be awe inspiring.