Emperors Immortals Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Well, they talk about the mentioned "detachments", with CSM being battle-brothers. Well, they talk about the mentioned "detachments", with CSM being battle-brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3716349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 And when you take two separate main detachments, one of a supplement and one of the parent book or the other supplemet, that's how they'll treat each other. As battle brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3716357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 You're absolutely right, its a situation that is a little strange. Though, I suppose you could take an allied SlaughterSorc with possesed troops for some reason.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3716363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Close. Unless I'm mistaken (which I could be), because the supplement rules apply to an entire detachment, you'd have to have two separate detachments to run them both in the same army, one run out of each supplement, with the rules and restrictions of that supplement. There's no limit to the number of detachments you can take in a battleforged army, so that's not a problem. In an unbound army, however, there are no detachments. Since there are no detachments, there are no 'crimson slaughter' or 'black legion' detachments, and since the special rules and unique equipment are only available to units and characters within such detachments, they are simply unavailable to unbound armies. In short, there is no such thing as a Crimson Slaughter or Black Legion unbound army, and options from those supplements are not available to CSM unbound armies. Or, at least, that's the way it is for Black Legion, my Crimson Slaughter book isn't currently within arms reach to verify if the wording is the same. Gotcha, thanks Mal - so if running battleforged the each detachment needs its own FOC, allowing spammed heavy/fast attack 3 from each book so long as the minimum troops are fulfilled. Obviously points dependant. Data slates are also detachments on their own. Unbound - no such constraints, no surprise I suppose. All depends whether you want objective secured troops. EDIT - What I am thinking of running is Khârn, scoring Chosen and possibly some Zerks in Landraiders (possibly one a Spartan), and using an HQ from either the CSM Axe Lord or CS art armour/fancy sword Lord with obligatory cultist. I can then use further heavy support slots from both detachment/books. Add to this 500pts of Daemon allies when I see fit. It all depends if I find 'objective secured' worthwhile, and not everywhere allows unbound I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3716380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Can you just take two combined arms detatchments? edit; yes you can, but that doesn't help Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3717404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Anyone else see a FAQ in the future stating that the suppliments count as separate factions in the same way as SM Chapter Tactics. My common sense screams this. But we know where common sense stands on GW rulings. In the corner like a naughty school kid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3717526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I've just sent this to the Gamefaqs@gwplc.com email. I'll post any response I get. Hi. A question has been raised regarding how Factions and Allies works with the current batch of Chaos Space Marine Codex and Supplements. The way it looks in the main rulebook is that all three books count as one faction but the rules in each book are specific to that detachment. So as it stands, do all the rules in the three books combine or are the three ment to count as separate factions for using the Allies rules? Many thanks, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3717532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 From my reading, neither of your suggested interpretations are correct. They are not separate factions that can ally with one another. Rather, there is a single faction, "chaos space marines", with two optional sets of additional rules and restrictions that can be applied to detachments thereof. If both supplements apply simultaneously to all armies, that breaks the faction, since that would men that both the Black Legion "must take vets" and the crimson slaughter "cannot take vets unless cult unit" restrictions would simultaneously apply to all CSM armies. If that were the case, then every single unit with the option for vets other than cult units would be unfieldable. Our only legal HQs would be the special characters. There would be no troop chosen or possessed for anybody, because neither unit would be legal. Terminators, basic CSMs, raptors, bikes, warp talons, mutilators, obliterators and havocs would also be illegal to field ever. Again, just one faction, chaos space marines, and each distinct chaos space marine combined arms or allied detachment in an army can optionally be declared a 'black legion' or 'crimson slaughter' detachment, applying the options and restrictions of those supplements to that entire detachment. The main ambiguity I'm currently wondering about is formations. They're treated as separate detachments, but do the rules ever specifically declare them to be such? If they are actually detachments, then you could theoretically declare them to be Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter detachments as well. I don't see any advantage for declaring any detachments Black Legion (the fallen could be troops, but they still wouldn't have objective secured, as even if they are detachments, they aren't "combined arms" or "allied" detachments), but you could have your formations cause fear by declaring them to be Crimson Slaughter if that were the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3717541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Gamefaqs hasn't been responding at all to any of the questions i've asked, so don't give your hopes up. Regarding BL + CS, the way I look at it, you basically declare which codex each unit has come from when writing a list. The Black Legion rule only stipulates that they must take VOTLW if they have the option to, if you take a Crimson Slaughter unit, it doesn't have the option to, therefore isn't bound by the Black Legion rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3717941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 That interpretation seems to be against both the spirit of the supplement rules (ie, that they offer new options at the cost of certain restrictions) and against the letter thereof (that the benefits and restrictions of the supplements are applied to entire CSM detachments, not to individual CSM units). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3717977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 And there's the reply so far. If it ever gets a reply that is. You’ve reached the rules mailbox for Games Workshop - thanks for your email! We’re not able to respond to each email individually, but we read every one and feed all comments back into making Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 even better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 And there's the reply so far. If it ever gets a reply that is. You’ve reached the rules mailbox for Games Workshop - thanks for your email! We’re not able to respond to each email individually, but we read every one and feed all comments back into making Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 even better. We've been bamboozled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Bring back Roolz Boyz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Having to pick one a supplement (or none) and then being unable to ally with the others does seem to be the logical interpretation. It leaves us without the ability to ally with ourselves again, making that the exclusive preserve of the loyalists, so it's almost certainly also the intended outcome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The way I see it, the supplements work by creating a separate army under the faction of "Chaos Space Marines". Much like there are different armies that all fall under the Armies of Humanity faction, there are different armies that fall under the Chaos Marines faction. So you choose a detachment from a particular army, say Crimson Slaughter, and they are your primary detachment. Battle-forged that means a Combined Arms Detachment. You then take another Detachment, this time from Black Legion. You could even take a third using Generic Chaos Marines. Effectively a Chaos supplement creates a different army under the Chaos Faction "banner". This way the rules in the supplement that state they can ally with Chaos Marines still function as they are written. It's just plain common sense, and doesn't require the FAQ gremlin to think for you... because that way 6th edition allied Techmarines lies... and we all know how that ended up ;) So it boils down to the difference between "an army" and "a faction". Of course, I'm sure unbound will be the next contentious thing to rear it's ugly head, but should it really be a problem? I think not, so long as the models are identifiable as belonging to different base armies, and are correctly labelled as such on the army list. There should be no issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Pardon my ignorance here as I usually try to avoid rule talk and I do not yet possess any material relating to the new rules, how exactly does Combined Arms work? If my limited understanding is correct, then anything within a faction can be used in the same list, period without having to use an Allies chart, since factions cannot ally themselves. For example, a Black Legion supplement army cannot have a Crimson Slaughter ally detachment, but both should(key phrase; optimum word; etc) be able to just be put into the same list together? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Pardon my ignorance here as I usually try to avoid rule talk and I do not yet possess any material relating to the new rules, how exactly does Combined Arms work? If my limited understanding is correct, then anything within a faction can be used in the same list, period without having to use an Allies chart, since factions cannot ally themselves. For example, a Black Legion supplement army cannot have a Crimson Slaughter ally detachment, but both should(key phrase; optimum word; etc) be able to just be put into the same list together? Combined Arms detatchment is just the classic FoC with 1 mandatory HQ and 2 mandatory troops, etc, plus if your warlord is chosen from a combined arms detatchment you can re-roll your warlord trait. And they can't, because the wording is such that choices from the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements are selected as detatchments, so your entire detatchment is CS/BL, or it isn't at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Well that's why I said "should" and not "can", apologies for the confusion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I thought you could just take multiple combined arms detachments? Is there anything at all preventing you from taking more than one regular detachment of your faction? If not, you can still mix them in the same army, it's just that each needs it's own min 2 troops and 1 HQ, instead of an allied detachments min 1 troop. On the other hand, you do get up to 2 HQs, 3 Fast, or 3 Heavy out of your second combined arms detachment, where as before you were limited to one of each from allied detachments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Okay so...is this legal then? Main Detachment Crimson Slaughter: HQ: Kranon Lord with Jump Pack MoK HQ: Huron (Warlord) E: 8 Dratznit Chosen, 5 Plasma guns Rhino (dirge) TR: CSM x 10 2x Plasma Rhino (Dirge) TR: CSM x 10 2x Plasma Rhino (Dirge) Fast: Raptors x 8, 2 meltaHeavy: Predator AC/LCSSecond Detachment: Black Legion Lord TDA Skull, PF/LC, SoC MoT or MoK Vets. E: 4 Terminators MoK vets, Landraider (Dirge) E: Helbrute TLLC, PF TR: Khorne Beserkers x 8 vets TR: Khorne Beserkers x 8 vetsFast: HeldrakeFast: 3x Nurgle Spawn Fast: 3x Nurgle Spawn Third Detachment: CSMs HQ: Daemon Prince, MoS Black Mace wings HQ: AoBF Biker Champ TR: 10x Cultists TR: 10 x CultistsFast: Bikers x 4, 2 melta or plasma, MOK. Heavy: Havoks, 4x ac Heavy: Havoks, 4x ML Heavy: Oblits x 3 ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Almost. Iirc (and again, I could be wrong on this), you still pick one of your combined arms detachments to be your "primary detachment", and that's the one your warlord is chosen from. HQs making cult units troops would only work in the primary detachment, not for other detachments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 And CSM and Daemons are not the same faction, correct? So if I want to put them together, one has to be an allied detachment or it would have to be an Unbound army, correct? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 And CSM and Daemons are not the same faction, correct? So if I want to put them together, one has to be an allied detachment or it would have to be an Unbound army, correct? Or you could do two Combined Arms detatchments with one being Primary with your armies Warlord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 You can do that now? Huh. I foresee a future of CS Possessed army with a Khirne Daemon army..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 You combined arms detachments don't all have to come from the same faction? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292327-has-your-opinion-of-the-supplements-changed-with-7th/page/2/#findComment-3718554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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