New to Chaos, returning from 4th edition hiatus. Questions

[HaeMonkulus]

So I've been gone from 40k a long time--don't know the new rules, and I haven't played a game since 1999.  I got sucked back in by the new Chosen models in the Dark Vengeance set.  I'm looking at building a small CSM army (about 1500 points), and with the new Unbound rules I'm really interested in pairing them with some Dark Eldar allies (mostly for theme and aesthetics).  Since I'm only passingly familiar with 7th edition (haven't read the rulebook or played a game yet), I'm looking to maximize my purchasing decisions for a flexible army.  I'd like some comments/help/critique here about what I have and what I might acquire so that the allies would best complement each other--and, with the use of some magnets, be a flexible collection that could field at least a couple of different types of armies.  (I would also accept something along the lines of, "Dear God man, don't pair CSM with DE!")

 

My goal is to have this army be more for semi-competitive or casual play.  

 

Here's my model list: 

 

Kranon the Relentless

Warpsmith

Sorcerer in Terminator armor (conversion in progress)

Draznicht's Ravagers + 5 additional Chosen

25 Cultists

Helbrute (DV model)

5 Terminators

Land Raider

 

Looking to buy: Rhino, Raptors (or Heldrake, but I like the Raptor models better).  I think I could make a couple of semi-competitive 1500-point lists with these models.  Anyone notice any glaring holes?  

 

As for adding DE allies, I think I'd get the most bang for the buck with the battleforce (Raider, 3 reavers, 1 squad each of Warriors and Wyches), but would be open to other suggestions.  I know it's early on in 7th, but has anyone tried anything with CSM + DE unbound?  

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Dallas Drake]

Firstly welcome back to the hobby!

 

You look like you might want more Cultists, you can pick them up on eBay cheap so that's no issue. Two or three units of 10-20 at 1500 points will suffice, also google the Helbrute data slate, you might want to run that (and you'll need more Cultists if you do).

 

DV Chosen are lovely models, but they're kitted up for close combat, something they're not really good at. I suggest picking up a few plasma guns or meltaguns (again eBay is your friend) and doing this conversion, so long as you feel comfortable doing it. They'll do so much more as a shooty unit for you.

 

http://www.spikeybitsblog.com/2013/03/converting-chaos-chosen-bring-on-pain.html?m=1

 

I did this conversion for about £7 and if you take your time it's not too difficult. You can always pick up an extra sprue of DV Chosen on eBay too pretty cheap.

 

Terminators in a Land Raider... Meh. I personally use neither (not for want of trying, I have 20 Terminators and a Forgeworld LR) and it's your choice if you run these, they're not bad just not knock out.

 

I know nothing of Dark Eldar, so I can't comment on how they'll synergise with your army, if you want to use them though go for it, it's totally down to what looks cool and what you want to use.

 

Last thing I'd suggest is get the rules, if you don't want to buy them then borrow them from a friend or gaming group. Just give them a good read & get a few games in, it's only after playing a few games that you'll know what you want/like. In fact, first thing I'd do is get down to a FLGS or gaming group and have a few games, even if it means using someone else's minis, lots has changed since 4th edition and if you buy models before you know what you like you will waste money.

 

Good luck!

 

Dallas

[Forté]

Just as a warning. Be ready for the influx of "the only stuff worthwhile is cultists, nurgle obliorators, helldrakes, and sorcerers". Oh and there's the "don't use chosen, possessed, apostle, standard marines, etc".

 

I'm sure it'll come.

 

Make sure you take a look at the Crimson Slaughter Codex. Some good alternative relics in there. Otherwise with Unbound...go for it. You won't need to be thinking as much about objectives and more on being destructive to squads that can earn VP easily.

[the jeske]

well DE aren't battle brothers with chaos , so there is little sense in taking them at least from the gaming perspective . there just isn't much synergy between them and what chaos can run or runs.

 

What do you mean by semi competitive , to start building lists we need more info.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Welcome HaeMonkulus

 

I think you got a good start, Dark Vengance box game having a lot of great models :D  Best thing to do just get a few games of 7th ed, allow you to get use to the new rules & see how everthing works.

As said there by forte, you may want to check the Crimson Slaughter supplament which you can buy on the Games Workshop web site.  Just with the chosen & with Draznicht's Ravagers getting preferred enemy, having Draznicht & a few chosen with Plasma gun that re-roll 1's to hit & wound is always nice.

 

Overall when I make up a army list I just look that the models I'll enjoy converting, painting & gaming, as well as what role they will be in my army.  End of the day everone got diffrent way they enjoy gaming & will have units they like & unit they will not like.

IP
 

[HaeMonkulus]

Hey, thanks for all the replies!  

 

I do have the rulebook, as well as the CSM and CS codices--I just haven't had time to read and absorb all the information.  I'm more in the mood to glue plastic together right now. :)  

 

I can pretty easily hook my Chosen up with some more ranged firepower--converting isn't really a problem.  I can also pick up more Cultists, as I have some store credit at an online store.

 

By semi-competitive, I mean that I generally prefer to choose that I think look cool, fit a theme, and that I'll enjoy assembling and painting instead of going for an optimized list--knowing that such an army won't win as many battles.  I played Sisters in 4th, and if I recall, the favored tactic was drive by flaming, with most models never actually getting out of their Rhinos--not how I like to play or model.  For this list, I like the way that the look of DE and CSM complement each other.  Also, my CSM currently don't have much in the way of Fast Attack, and I think a Raider full of Wyches, or Scourges bringing splinter cannons to bear, would be a great distraction to allow my slower CSM to close.

[the jeske]

So how many units of chosen do you want to use ?

 

The terminators could be run as a 3 man squad with 3 combi weapons , but that is more of points filler unit.

 

There is no good ways to use chaos land raiders , sad you already bought that model .

 

in a normal 1500pts army , you will [most of the time] see 3-4 troops minimum . In chaos this is cultists most of the time. Not because they are good or anything , but because they are cheap.

 

Raptors don't realy have a niche in any chaos army. They could do ok if you play on tables with a lot of LoS blocking terrain , which are not too high.And am talking like 50% or more of the table being terrain .

 

Do not buy a helldrake  with the limitation it has now [the 45 weapon mount goes in all 4 dimensions , blast damege doesn't go over to units that are outside of weapons LoS  etc], it is very hard to use.

 

All the HQs you have right now are very slow and that doesn't work at all in general , unless the same HQs have some realy good synergy with the rest of the army[like tyfus making zombis or Huron giving d3 infiltrates or Draigo making paladins troops]. For chaos it is even more important as our troops lack speed and our melee/tar pit units need HQ support[those units used are bikers or spawn. raptors while costing just as much aren't faster and have the stats of normal marines. there are also problems with using biker HQs with jump pack units].

 

 

 

So buy 40 more cultists , the hellbrute and some of the cultists can be run as formation . Take some sort of long range support as you have non right now and you will have to deal with transports and support units. The rest of the points you can spend on chosen in rhinos , although those would probably work better[doesn't mean good] with cypher in the list.

[Shuggnuggath]

Actually CSM use up their fast attack slots pretty quickly. Even if you avoid taking hell drakes. 

 

Bikes, Spawn (with the mark of Nurgle) and even Raptors (not as good as bikes) are among the best units in the Codex. Mobility is very important in the current game. The benefit of the fast attack choices is that they are not reliant on a transport that can easily get destroyed. 

 

Note: Spawn with the mark of Nurgle (a relatively cheap upgrade) are 2x as tough vs str 4 attacks (very common). They are also immune to being insta-gibbed by str 10. 

Spawn as also inherently fearless, lack of Know no Fear can make regular CSM a bit flakey on morale.

[HaeMonkulus]

So how many units of chosen do you want to use ?

 

The terminators could be run as a 3 man squad with 3 combi weapons , but that is more of points filler unit.

 

There is no good ways to use chaos land raiders , sad you already bought that model .

 

in a normal 1500pts army , you will [most of the time] see 3-4 troops minimum . In chaos this is cultists most of the time. Not because they are good or anything , but because they are cheap.

 

Raptors don't realy have a niche in any chaos army. They could do ok if you play on tables with a lot of LoS blocking terrain , which are not too high.And am talking like 50% or more of the table being terrain .

 

Do not buy a helldrake  with the limitation it has now [the 45 weapon mount goes in all 4 dimensions , blast damege doesn't go over to units that are outside of weapons LoS  etc], it is very hard to use.

 

All the HQs you have right now are very slow and that doesn't work at all in general , unless the same HQs have some realy good synergy with the rest of the army[like tyfus making zombis or Huron giving d3 infiltrates or Draigo making paladins troops]. For chaos it is even more important as our troops lack speed and our melee/tar pit units need HQ support[those units used are bikers or spawn. raptors while costing just as much aren't faster and have the stats of normal marines. there are also problems with using biker HQs with jump pack units].

 

 

 

So buy 40 more cultists , the hellbrute and some of the cultists can be run as formation . Take some sort of long range support as you have non right now and you will have to deal with transports and support units. The rest of the points you can spend on chosen in rhinos , although those would probably work better[doesn't mean good] with cypher in the list.

 

Thanks for the feedback.  

 

To address some of the points: 

I could run one or two Chosen squads, depending on the mission.  I have enough models to field two.  Plan was generally to run them in a Rhino. 

 

As for the Land Raider, why does it suck?  Just reviewing the Codex I see good armor, transport capacity, and the ability to mount some long-range antitank firepower.  

 

Regarding my HQ choices, I know they are slow--hence the purchase of one transport and the plans to get another.  I'll be continuing to collect, so what specific HQ (aside from Huron) would you recommend?  I'm sure I'll pick up a better sense of this as I continue to read the codex.

 

I had also thought about adding a squad of Possessed as Troops, dropping them in a Rhino with Kranon.  

 

As for support, I'd considered the Forgefiend, Vindicator, or Defiler (don't like the Defiler model, though).  

 

Bear in mind that, given my work schedule and 3 kids, by the time I get this all painted up and table ready, we'll be well into 8th edition!  :)

[Sception]

Re chaos land raider:  It only does one thing at a time, but is pricey like it does everything all the time.  Lack of machine spirit makes it far less versatile than its loyalist counterpart, which was already their worst version of the land raider and relatively rarely used.

 

Its transport capacity is too small to carry much of a meaningful assault unit unless you're doubling up on that cost for a major special character, and its lascannon payload can be reproduced or exceeded by far cheaper alternatives.

 

Stylistically, I like land raiders a lot, but it isn't really a good choice.

[the jeske]

Regarding my HQ choices, I know they are slow--hence the purchase of one transport and the plans to get another.  I'll be continuing to collect, so what specific HQ (aside from Huron) would you recommend?  I'm sure I'll pick up a better sense of this as I continue to read the codex.

 

 

Well that depends. As most our HQs force other choices in the list. If you take a biker lord or sorc , then spawn or bikers have to be taken . If you take huron he can hang around with the cultists or in a rhino with the chosen. If you take a DP , it more or less forces demon ally . Stuff like that . IMO you should think what you want to do with the list. For example a lvl 3 sorc with divination could work well with a unit of chosen[that is an example, doesn't mean you have to run chosen with a sorc etc]

 

as for LR goes mali more or less said it . bad rules , high cost , lack of important upgrades[multi melta for example].

 

 

Out of the 3 support choices you picked a dakka fiend[forge fiend with multi shot weapons] is probably the beast. vindicators are slow, low armor and bad in general , defilers on the other hand cost 100pts too much [minimum].

 

Taking fiends could have interesting effects on your list. They have inv and are demonic , so a CS sorc [himself a demon through a relic] could use demonology to make them more resilient . That would probably mean you would want either another sorc too and/or demonic ally to get more power dice to cast stuff.

 

 

So for starters[not thinking about points]

I would go with something like this

 

 

Sorc

Sorc

hellbrute

3x20 cultists

2xforgefiends

5xchosen with plasma guns in a rhino

 

One sorc hides in the cultists unit you made fearless with hell cult . He take demonology to buff them with the +1to inv spell

the second sorc takes divination and buffs the chosen with re-rolls[well tries to buff them] etc.

[Deadman Wade]

IIRC, now Machine Spirit doesn't allow you to shoot one more weapon at full ballistic skill, as it doesn't affect Snap Shots anymore, so Chaos Land Raider is actually better (dirge caster) and cheaper than loyalist version. Not that any Land Raider is good or cost-effective, but CSM have the cheapest one.

[Dallas Drake]

IIRC, now Machine Spirit doesn't allow you to shoot one more weapon at full ballistic skill, as it doesn't affect Snap Shots anymore, so Chaos Land Raider is actually better (dirge caster) and cheaper than loyalist version. Not that any Land Raider is good or cost-effective, but CSM have the cheapest one.

10 man capacity really lets the CSM LR down, at least loyalists can cram a decent amount of bodies in there (crusader etc.).

[Slave to Darkness]

but we are chaos, we get by with what we have, we dont need fancy toys, we shouldnt moan about what stuff the loyalist gets. we aint whiny girls like the dark angels and templars. 

[Deadman Wade]

 

IIRC, now Machine Spirit doesn't allow you to shoot one more weapon at full ballistic skill, as it doesn't affect Snap Shots anymore, so Chaos Land Raider is actually better (dirge caster) and cheaper than loyalist version. Not that any Land Raider is good or cost-effective, but CSM have the cheapest one.

10 man capacity really lets the CSM LR down, at least loyalists can cram a decent amount of bodies in there (crusader etc.).

Bodies like what? Except Death Company and maybe Honor Guard (and both can be fine with 9 members+Chaplain, so bigger transport capacity is not needed) there's no loyalist assault unit which is good enough to give them such expensive transport.

There aren't that many opponents against which you need more than ten berzerkers or five terminators.

[the jeske]

IIRC, now Machine Spirit doesn't allow you to shoot one more weapon at full ballistic skill, as it doesn't affect Snap Shots anymore, so Chaos Land Raider is actually better (dirge caster) and cheaper than loyalist version. Not that any Land Raider is good or cost-effective, but CSM have the cheapest one.

Or it is able to fire at full BS at flyers or after full movment as there is not difference between snap shoting .

 

10 or 9 berzerkers +HQ are not better then any of deathstar out there , but they cost just as much or more points.

 

5 terminators are a bad example without an HQ they aren't fearless and with one they are max 4 extra wounds for an HQ , and unlike loyalist terminators[which am not saying were the bomb in 6th or now in 7th] their inv is rather low.

[Deadman Wade]

Not sure what you mean, LRs can't fire at flyers with full BS with or without Machine Spirit. In 6th edition loyalist LR was able to fire using it's full BS at one or two targets after moving 6" or one weapon after 12". Now Snap Shots rule are unaffected by Machine Spirit (at least as I understand this), so it's just one weapon after 6" movement.

I'm not saying that CSM are as good as tau, necrons, eldar or daemons, but at least our close combat squads are better than loyalists, and regular LR, as overpriced as it is, is actually better too.

As for terminators, sure, hammernators are more durable, but CSM terminators are still cheaper even with fists, marks and a few combi-weapons. Actually, I like Chaos terminators more than loyalists in most of situations, but lack of teleport homers/servo skulls is really annoying.

[Midnightmare]

Land Raiders while certainly aren't great, they aren't that bad. Assault ramp transports are what they are and that is what you are paying points for, the guns are just additional. I frequently use a redeemer with my BA and I find I generally only get to use the main guns once properly, the main things the Chaos version misses is the Assault Cannon, Frag Launchers (depends on the cargo) and the option of a multimelta. Loyalists don't get dozers or dirge casters so it is horses for courses.

 

I am planning on running two, I love them. They may not be the best choice, but is any Chaos choice? You have to enjoy modelling and painting you army as well as playing it ;)

[Clone]

For 45 points more you can get a spartan with 2 extra lascannon shots, extra hull point and +15 transport capacity. You can also upgrade to be ignore the extra d6 from melta being in half range.

 

This is why u don't take a land raider. I don't think they are bad, I just happen to have something better.

[Midnightmare]

Something I personally am planning on doing for Abby's personal pimp ride; it is the daddy. But it trumps loyalist variants too. Also bare in mind FW may grant us access to more variants with the new book. I am also hopeful for the Sicaran!

 

You know they can have all my money then :D

[Clone]

Something I personally am planning on doing for Abby's personal pimp ride; it is the daddy. But it trumps loyalist variants too. Also bare in mind FW may grant us access to more variants with the new book. I am also hopeful for the Sicaran!

 

You know they can have all my money then :D

I've had my eye on a sicaran since they were first released, that and a fire raptor. In fact I almost bought a sicaran with the idea that I could use it as come the Apocalypse allies.

[Forté]

Chaos Spartan is tempting. Mainly for the 25 capacity and optional Armoured Ceramite.

[Midnightmare]

One of the lads in our club has a Sicaran for his BA, they are indeed awesome. They are like a Baal Pred +1.

 

Same guy also has a Spartan which I am jealous of as they are my fave of all the FW tanks - one WILL be mine!! Although it will serve both the Dark God's and the Emperor through the medium of magnetized doors - Black Legion and Death Company - I am lucky both my armies can have spiky black tanks.

 

Anyways, apologies to OP for derailing thread :)

[Forté]

Anyways, apologies to OP for derailing thread :)

Not really derailing as it shows that there are options out there that are not in the GW Codex books.

[Clone]

The Spartan certainly does offer a great deal more. I'm not even too bothered it doesn't have PoTMS due to the doubling of lacannon fire it can unload.