assaulting a falling back unit, overwatch?

[bradstorm]

Hi guys,

 

Had an issue in a battle the other day regarding firing overwatch whilst falling back.

 

The scenario is: Azrael on his own, has just beaten Tau Commander Shadowsun and her entourage of crisis battlesuits in assault and caused them to fall back 8" after Sweeping advance failed. Azrael consolidates. In my following turn, Azrael is in a good position to assault.

 

We couldn't find anything clear in the 7th ed rulebook that stops a falling back unit from firing overwatch. Pg 59 covers the rules for regrouping and say if I declare charge and the tau fail a leadership test; they are destroyed. As it was, they passed the test and regrouped as I assaulted.

 

The pg 59 rules say the regrouped unit fights as normal, but does this include firing overwatch?

 

The way I see it is the rules at the bottom of the left column pg.59 only apply in the regrouping unit's turn, and therefore can't overwatch as they have been spending time regrouping. overwatch rules on pg 45 don't seem to restrict this.

 

Any help would be much appreciated :)   

[Aradiel]

under regrouping, last sentence, before regrouping when assaulted

can shoot (including overwatch)

[bradstorm]

I can see the part you are referring to, but it seems that section is in reference to what happens in the unit's movement phase and from then onwards. Its more confusing on the following paragraph under ' regrouping when assaulted: the second bullet-point which says if the test is successful it regroups and continues the 'Fight' as normal. Surely this means the fight sub-phase, which is past the point overwatch is done?

 

I dunno, is my interpretation wrong or is it badly worded?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Was Shadowsun was still running when it got round to your turn again? (Assuming you charged, because your friend would be a bit silly to throw Shadowsun into combat with Azrael.)

 

If she had regrouped in her turn, she could fire Overwatch as normal. If she hadn't, then she wouldn't be able to IIRC and would take a Leadership test or be wiped out.

[bradstorm]

Shadowsun was there with some bodyguard crisis suits as the leftover from a tau deathstar. The unit had fallen back at the end of the tau player's assault phase, so hadn't had a chance to regroup yet until I charged it in my turn's assault phase. so you think no overwatch allowed in that circumstance? it sounds more feasible but I cant find anything either way in the rulebook that relates to this scenario :s

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think no Overwatch, as the Leadership test represents them rallying to face the threat, or getting cut down as they run a la Sweeping Advance.

 

Sweeping Advance as a rule always seemed very lazy to me, but it's about the only good thing Assault has going, so I let it pass. Still irks me when my Riptide gets a single Wound from 10 Marines spending two turns Krak Grenading him, turns tail on a failed Leadership test and somehow his armour turns to modelling putty and the Marines turn into Khârn the Betrayer and instantly and effortlessly remove him from the game.

[bradstorm]

Hmm odd about the riptide, I'd have figures at least a few marines would've been smashed by it and fall back themselves :S.

 

I agree with the whole rallying part, it just seems right. and whilst this action is separate to a sweeping advance, the affect could be the same. not likely but it could. At least it should allow the charging player to delve back into a fleeing enemy and become locked in combat. Overwatch is poor enough to hit when you are facing up to a charging enemy. It doesn't seem right to have the same ability when disorganised and not re-grouped.

Would still be nice to have something in the RB to back this up in plain English though. :)

[Spinsanity]

+ Edit : read SvenONE's post bellow. There's nothing preventing a falling back unit from shooting in the first place, so they are still free to OW before rolling to regroup...

 

You don't get to shoot overwatch if you just regrouped because of the charge.

 

Quick overview of the Charge sub-phase (p.44) :

1. Declare charge

2. Resolve overwatch

3. Roll charge range

4. Resolve charge move

5. Declare next charge / Proceed wih the Fight sub-phase

 

In this case, the regroup occurs on step 3, as soon as the enemy is found to be within charge range (Regrouping when assaulted, page 59); since overwatch occurs on step 2, it's too late to shoot. "the fight continues as normal", as stated, with the resolve charge move step and Fight sub-phase.

[bradstorm]

That's a great explanation! thanks! I find it odd how the summary tends to be left out of the text when referencing, but that sums it up nicely in terms of what comes first. must remember to take note of the summary boxes more :P

[SvenONE]

I have to say I don't know if I've ever even seen this situation occur because it seems so rare.

 

But I would actually argue that you can fire overwatch. 

 

The first thing I'll point out is that Overwatch's only restriction in THAT section of the book is units that are in combat or have fired already cannot fire Overwatch again.  Outside of that section, Vehicles and Blast weapons can't fire Overwatch.  Find me a line that says a Falling Back unit actually can't do that.  We know they can't charge and can only fire snap shots while continuing to fall back, but nothing about Overwatch.

 

As for the summary of events for the assault phase as Player not found suggested, I don't see how "it's too late".  A player can't roll a charge range until Overwatch is resolved, it's right there in the summary you posted.  The rule also (I've got a digital version) doesn't say that you take the test immediately when the charge is declared, just as soon as the unit is "within charge range".   

 

That can be a little confusing though.  Some can interpret charge range as A) the 2D6 as that's what a range is, any point between 2 limits in this case 2" or 12" or B. in 40K GW speak it's the actual distance that you roll.  

 

In A) is confusing because most likely you ARE in charge range as soon as you move within 12" (which would most likely happen even if they maxed out on their 2D6 fallback, and you rolled a 1 on your D6 consolidate).  Meaning I say "I'm charging, but I'm in charge range so take your test."  B. I think is the intended scenario as if you don't roll the charge range needed, you aren't catching the enemy who is running away from you, similar to how if you don't roll a high enough initiative, you're not going to catch them in a sweep.

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

 

can only fire snap shots while continuing to fall back

 

I was of the understanding that they couldn't fire at all. Is this true?

[SvenONE]

Well this hasn't changed since 6th edition, it's under Falling Back and Shooting, specifically in the Morale Section (again, digital version so no page number).

 

In fact my 6th ed hard copy says including overwatch, while my 7th edition removed the Overwatch line that was mentioned specifically (seeing as how these are snapshots, they probably decided it was redundant and removed it for clarity).

[Spinsanity]

Wow, you're right. It therefore appears that yeah, they can overwatch, even if they subsequently fail their Ld test... Well, I guess we learn something new everyday :)

 

+ Edit : Updated my previous post above...

[bradstorm]

Very well, would have been nice for them to include the overwatch in the' what you can do when falling back', they probabaly didn't mean to leave it out from 7th but I'm content to follow that ruling. thanks for everyone's help :)