Dealing with MCs & Characters in 7th

[Gentlemanloser]

 

If your argument was in any way true, Carnifex would be amazing for Tyranids. Walking MC are worthless if they can't put out significant shooting.

 

And if yours were true, no one would use *any* non Stormhammer TDA. ;)

 

5 x GKT, Psycannon.  225 points.

 

NDK, G Psilencer, H Psycannon.  205 Points.

 

Both can deep strike.
 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well Stormhammers have been the benchmark for so long now, its is pretty true that outside of GK or DA, you don't see Tactical Terminators much at all. Even these days, Stormhammers are still the only Terminators who can reliably survive Riptides. 

 

 

NDK, G Psilencer, H Psycannon.  205 Points.

 

 

The gatling psilencer is terrible, you should be taking the heavy incinerator instead. Heavy psycannon is alright I guess. If we had reliable ways of delivering teleport homers (aside from Mordy, who is a huge point sink), I'd run walking DK's. Without that though, Deepstrike is just too easily countered. 

[Gentlemanloser]

It was a comparison to footslogging TDA mate.  G Psilencer = 6 Storm Bolters. ;)

 

But you know that! :P

 

We're BB with the imperium now, don't forget!  We can use *any* Teleport homer.  Scouts infiltrating with some, Scout Bikes, Dark Angels, etc.

[Quozzo]

Don't forget servo skulls too.

[Ozshock]

deepstriking is all well and good but it has to fit in your armies style of play...are you a balls in player who sends everything to the front for max dmg turn 1? which would mean units like Mord, Interceptors, tele NDK's Dark Angel terms with belial etc...

 

if you want to DS the NDK, thats all well and good...if i know ur deepstriking that turn 2 i would focus whoever had the homer and goodbye NDK's reliability...try putting that base down at all in some games without hitting terrain or other models...

 

imo save the points wasted to get the NDK to where it needs to be 2nd turn and spend 75 to get it where it needs to be FIRST turn instead...and it doesnt mean you have to shunt first turn...just moving 12" forward is probably enough to hit the unit you want

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pretty much. Shunting is very hard to stop, some armies have no tools at all to deal with it. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Or save the rediculously expensive PT and Scout them with your Terminators (thorugh TGS and Tome) and footslog them next to your TDA.

[Ozshock]

footslogging is beaten by deploying as far away form them as possible...then completely shattering them with mass fire...the PT puts them in range first turn GUARANTEED without wasteing that Grand Strategy or Tome to give scouting to them...use it on GKSS to egt into range...much better imo

[Gentlemanloser]

So you Deep Strike...

 

Edit: You can't shunt Terminators.  That's the whole point, really.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So you Deep Strike...

 

InterTides/Coteaz/bubblewrap says hi. 

 

Edit: You can't shunt Terminators.  That's the whole point, really.

 

 

Yeah, which is why they're going on the shelf, in favour of Purifiers (who shoot harder and bring more bodies to the table) and Interceptors (who are much faster and are in enemy lines Turn 1 with very little to stop them). 

[Ozshock]

and you roll a 1 for grand strategy? or a 2? which do you scout? the 2x NDK's or one and a terminator squad? elaving 1 NDK behind? its never reliable to use GStrategy when you want to really use it onl multiple squads...first i see how many squads i can use it on then select the special rule...never grab it JUST for scouting

 

that 75 points gives them so much more manouvreability and most opponents cant do much about it turn 1

[Gentlemanloser]

InterTides/Coteaz/bubblewrap says hi.

Who cares about bubble wrap when your plan is to get close...

As for Coteaz/Riptides, sure don't DS infront of them. If you think you're going to have a problem footlsogging to get to Coteaz, just don't DS within 12" of him.

Yeah, which is why they're going on the shelf, in favour of Purifiers

Don't obfuscate the point!

People *still* use Terminators. They still either DS them and/or footslog them (rarely use a LR or Raven to transport them).

In this case, you can sub in a NDK for a 5 man TDA squad *and use it as effectively as you would have the TDA*.

and you roll a 1 for grand strategy? or a 2? which do you scout? the 2x NDK's or one and a terminator squad? elaving 1 NDK behind? its never reliable to use GStrategy when you want to really use it onl multiple squads...first i see how many squads i can use it on then select the special rule...never grab it JUST for scouting

Inquisitor with Tome is attached to GKT.

Two GKGM for guaranteed Scout on two NDK.

If you roll a 2/3 with the first one, then you give something else out with the second.

Simple.

Edit;

Anyway, this entire page of discussion was me countering RDs claim of;

Walking MC are worthless if they can't put out significant shooting.

If a Walking MC that can put out the same shooting as a walking TDA squad is worthless. Then by extension the walking TDA squad is also worthless.

Which just isn't the case.

So no. A walking NDK isn't worthless. ;)

[boreas]

I always find those "absolutes" funny. Never take walking NDK because riptides/Coteaz? Do you play against those armies 100% of the time? I play vs IG, Nids, Eldars, Tau (without riptides, guy hates the model for some weird reason), Daemons, Orks also... Vs those armies, saving 150pts of teleporter helps me put points towards other useful things.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

and you roll a 1 for grand strategy? or a 2? which do you scout? the 2x NDK's or one and a terminator squad? elaving 1 NDK behind? its never reliable to use GStrategy when you want to really use it onl multiple squads...first i see how many squads i can use it on then select the special rule...never grab it JUST for scouting

Pretty much. Although even one Scouting unit of Terminators/Purifiers/DK is pretty scary. You're basically a turn away from charging them at that point (like Deepstriking but without the issues of Interceptor, although of course bubblewrap still works fine at stopping you).

Who cares about bubble wrap when your plan is to get close...

As for Coteaz/Riptides, sure don't DS infront of them. If you think you're going to have a problem footlsogging to get to Coteaz, just don't DS within 12" of him.

Bubblewrap is designed to flood their DZ with models, so the only safe landing zones (ie where you can legally place even a 5-man Terminator squad, or the huge base of a DK) are in front of their gunline. Riptides can Intercept you provided they can see you (60" range and 36" range on their two main weapon options), which given Deepstrike scatter and it being their DZ (ie they're already taken the best spots and deployed defensively), is pretty likely even if you try and land behind Line of Sight blocking terrain.

Coteaz is easier to get around, but his 12" can cover a lot depending on how the rest of the army deploys. 'Warp Quake' is a loss though, it did let Knights deny a lot more of the board to enemy Pod/mass Deepstrike shenanigans.

Don't obfuscate the point!

People *still* use Terminators. They still either DS them and/or footslog them (rarely use a LR or Raven to transport them).

In this case, you can sub in a NDK for a 5 man TDA squad *and use it as effectively as you would have the TDA*.

If a Walking MC that can put out the same shooting as a walking TDA squad is worthless. Then by extension the walking TDA squad is also worthless.

Which just isn't the case.

So no. A walking NDK isn't worthless.

Apples and oranges. You're taking the worst weapon options and no teleporter on a DK, then trying to claim its somehow comparable to a Terminator squad. They are both arguably melee units (although GKT's still shoot just fine), but they have quite different roles. GKT's are supposed to take and hold enemy objectives against all-comers, forcing the enemy to expend more than they planned getting rid of them (as even if they're locked in melee, if the enemy unit isn't Troops as well, you still score the objective). Riptides and other such nonsense ensures that doesn't happen sadly, hence why we turn to our other infantry options because they either have more firepower+wounds (Purifiers), or they have the raw speed to put a clock on the enemy (ie kill 20 Interceptors in your Turn 1 shooting, or enjoy getting murdered).

DK's are designed to solve melee problems our infantry can't handle. Ironically they die easiest to Princes and Greater Daemons, but that's par for course with GW. Their real strength is munching enemy 2+ save infantry, high Toughness infantry like Ogryns or Wraithguard (multi-wound shudders going up against a DK), and of course it eats vehicles for breakfast, and non-melee MC's (like our good friend the InterTide). Footslogging is just feeding him to the enemy gunline. With a teleporter, you stand good odds of getting into melee at least once with something, and probably killing it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not really mate.  They are *very* comparable.

 

I'm honestly surprised you would try to argue otherwise...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Terminators are a Troops choice. They can only ever move at the normal pace of infantry, they can't Sweeping Advance, and they have the normal shooting options of our infantry, along with all the nemesis options (many at zero additional cost to swap). You get 5x T4 wounds with a 2+/5+ save for a basic 5-man squad (which can be expanded if you wish). 

 

Dreadknights are a Heavy Support choice. They have mediocre guns for the most part, but amazing melee capacity. An expensive upgrade turns them into Jump Infantry, with a one-use 30" move. You get 4x T6 wounds with a 2+/5+ save. 

 

They live in different parts of the Force Org, they perform different roles (Terminators are generalist front-line infantry with a bias towards melee, DK's are all melee erry day with a smattering of anti-infantry ranged weaponry), and they move and function differently on the battlefield. They even die to different things (Riptides melt Terminators but usually can't kill a DK without help before it charges them, I5 characters and MC's can kill a DK before it can swing, but halberds on Terminators prevent such things happening to them), and depending on loadout and matchup they'll perform differently. 

 

 

Anyway, my point still stands. A footslogging DK is a giant easily-shot target for the enemy to dump firepower into. A DK with a teleporter has amazing mobility and can basically position himself Turn 1 where you need him to be come Turn 2. Making tangential comparisons to Terminators doesn't change that. 

[Quozzo]

I'd say the comparison is spot on.

[Gentlemanloser]

Different FoC is a red herring these days.  Everyone Scores and Slot means little.

 

Both move the same speed (without upgrades).

 

Both have the same Armour & Invulnerable Save.

 

Both can Deep Strike.

 

One has 5 x T4 wounds.  The other has 4 x T6 wounds.

 

One shoots 10 x S4/AP5 at 24".  The other 12 x S4/AP- at 24".

 

Both have access to comparable shooting upgrades (Incinerator / Heavy Incinerator.  Psycannon / Heavy Psycannon).  Both have Force Weapons.

 

One has 10 x S4/AP3 attacks in CC.  The other 4 x S10/AP2.

 

One costs 200 Points.  The other 165.

 

They both do the same thing in game.  Walk, shoot and smash in CC.  Being 'elite' and durable at the same time.

 

The similarities are *staggering*.  Trying to differentiate them, just for the sake of it, is well, pointless. ;)

[Ozshock]

Incinerator/Heavy Incinerator...HIncin is a 12" torrent...not even comparable to an 8" template

Psycan/Heavy Psycan...HPsycan is a Large Blast...still Str 7 rending, but easily far better against infantry groups...where as the Psycannon is better for vehicles and smaller infantry squads...

 

why compare Terminators to NDK's? youve said it urself...ur trying to cmpare T4 wounds to T6 wounds...need far different weapons to take them out...S4 bolter types need to wound T6 on 6's...but can pour the wounds into T4 any other day of the week

 

the ranged weapons need to be used differently, a Large blast is better used against mobs of infantry, not vehicles...and since when do you NOT add in the psycans on a terminator squad...and ive never seen a tournament list with a Gatling Psilencer...it just never happens...

 

Terminators for us are OBJECTIVE SECURED...means they score if they are next to anything BUT a troop choice...meaning the opponent needs to nuke them or get a troop close to them...and well GL to that staying on the board...a NDK is a Heavy Support...all the opponent needs to do is sit a troops transport next to it and BAM there goes the objective for you

 

both units play a far different role...if you are playing them in the same role you are doing it wrong...

[Captain Coolpants]

Although on paper they aren't that too different, psychologically they are massively different.

 

If you had 5 kitted out terminators and 1 naked dreadknight walking up the field.... I guarantee the terminators will remain largely ignored until the dreadknight eventually gets shot to death. Simply because the dreadknight is a monstrous creature. And people are usually scared of monstrous creatures lol

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Force Org still matters for a variety of things, not least of which is availability and mission bonuses. 

 

In Unbound, yeah of course I'd spam DK's, they're absurdly good en-masse. But in a normal list, you field 1-2 at most, as they're so expensive. 

 

One final thing I forgot about infantry versus MC's is their physical presence. DK's are almost impossible to hide, Terminators are still 40mm but they can hide behind a lot more stuff. This also feeds into their threat priority, people will expend their entire armies shooting on a DK, whereas Terminators don't require that much and don't draw as much fire until they threaten to charge. 

[Gentlemanloser]

What, you don't model your NDKs kneeling or sitting down?

 

Modelling for an advantage is no longer a rule/restriction in 40k...

 

Forge that narrative and game True line of Sight!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What, you don't model your NDKs kneeling or sitting down?

 

Modelling for an advantage is no longer a rule/restriction in 40k...

 

Forge that narrative and game True line of Sight!

 

Well my local player group actually uses the Warmahordes method of cylinder and standard height for True LOS issues. We don't really have many modelling for advantage people anyway, those guys are not popular. And I know that stuff is banned at tourneys, they once-over your models before you even play for that exact reason. 

 

;) But I know you're joking anyway

[Gentlemanloser]

:)