The Blue Scribes and Possession

[Seahawk]

Do the Scribes get possessed, or do they hack the system?

 

"Note that the Blue Scribes are not psykers for the purposes of any special rules that target psykers."

 

"If this power is successfully manifested, the psyker is immediately removed as a casualty..."

 

 

Since they're not a psyker, they don't get removed as a casualty, right? Likewise, they don't suffer a wound from Sacrifice, eh?

[Teetengee]

I think we should wait for an FAQ, because RAI (I believe) is fairly clear here.

[Seahawk]

Of course RAI is clear: They gibba and gabba some bound words from a scroll with zero comprehension of how it works, and poof something happens! Since they don't know anything and aren't psychic themselves, the warp-borne madness doesn't touch them, and onward they go.

 

RAI isn't any clearer. ;)

[Teetengee]

Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

[Axagoras]

...

[Eddie Orlock]

I guess I'd start by looking into the divisibility of the effects. Is it standard practice that if only part of a rule is applicable it can be applied severably?

[Seahawk]

Guh?

 

You mean to say, if there's no psyker to smush, the greater daemon just doesn't appear? That's also possible, considering that if a regular psyker kills itself while manifesting Possession (due to perils), you don't get the greater daemon there because you can't sac the already-dead psyker.

[Raeven]

Honestly, looks like the Blue Scribes can pull a greater daemon without penalty.  They aren't psykers, nor are they a brotherhood of sorcerer's.

 

You can argue they can't, but that smells to me of just limiting the options because it's a powerful one.  Not because the rules say you have to have a psyker to sacrifice.

[Teetengee]

My feelings are as follows psyker in every spell/psychic power refers to the model(s) using it. So the Blue scribes can feel free to use the possession, but then die. However, I think seperability of rules question is the way to go.

[Venemox]

If we're not counting them as Psykers, does that mean they cannot manifest a Psychic Power?  The rules do clearly state 'Select Psyker and Psychic Power' as step one in manifesting powers.

[Morticon]

Id also raise contention with the wording of "target a psyker"

[Dam13n]

"Note that the Blue Scribes are not psykers for the purposes of any special rules that target psykers."

Except they are (effectively) the psyker(s) casting the power. The effect of the psychic power is not a special rule, it's a psychic power. The wording of the sentence above concerns weapons like mindstrike missiles (psi-shock special rule) which have special rules that affect psykers.

Now Sacrifice states that either a nearby friendly model, or the psyker must take a wound... now if the scribes are on their lonesome... we'll they are a friendly model within 6" of themselves (sort of). Possession removes the psyker that casts the power... the scribes are the psyker(s) that cast the power... so they're removed and replaced by something larger and more gribbly...

[Raeven]

I'm going to have to agree with Dam13n after reading the powers again.  The focus of the possession is the model that manifests the power.  It doesn't matter that they say psyker, the intention, if not RAW, is that the Psyker (i.e. caster of the power/spell) is possessed.

[Teetengee]

Could we say that the psychic powers are not special rules? SO that would mean that the Blue Scribes are psykers as far as the psychic powers are concerned? That would mean special rules refer to (universal) special rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

The wording of the sentence above concerns weapons like mindstrike missiles or psyk-out grenades (as well as many others) which have special rules that affect psykers.

Mindstrikes and Psyk-outs *aren't* special rules.

That are a Weapon and a bit of Wargear.

So by RAW they should have no effect on the Blue Scribes. (Edit: opps! :P)

[Raeven]

He didn't say they were special rules, but that they had special rules that affected Psykers specifically.

[Gentlemanloser]

:)

 

What's a special rule?

 

:P

[Spinsanity]

What's a special rule?

That's the only easy question so far in this tread

They're listed from page 156 to 174 of the Rulebook...

+ Edit : I'd be tempted to say that Mindstrike missiles DO have the 'Psi-shock' special rule (detailed on page 57 of C:GK).

Regarding the Psyk-out grenades, who cares if the scribes are considered psykers or not, they are daemons after all...

[Teetengee]

Psi-shock is the special rule, when weapons have Special Rules (Capitalized for emphasis) they are listed after their base attack information in their profile., such as rending, unwieldy, or in this case psi-shock. Whether or not rules mentioned via an asterix are special rules is another question. (Such as some DE missiles).

[Seahawk]

Keep in mind too, that the Blue Scribes are not psykers at all, so Mindstrike, Psyocculum, etc, don't have an effect at all. No psyker special rule, no nuthin'. 

 

That's why I asked in the first place. Since they aren't psykers, by RAW, do they get removed by a rule that says "remove the psyker"?

[Venemox]

Simple, Seahawk: since they aren't Psykers, the opportunity never presents itself, as they aren't legitimate selections under the first step of manifesting a psychic power.  They are units that get powers they can never use do an oversight in the ever watchful GW rules department.

 

Edit:  This being the natural progression of 'not Psykers'; as opposed to 'not Psykers for the purpose of special rules that target Psykers', therefore being expressly counted a Psykers for all other purposes.

[Dam13n]

The manifesting of psychic powers (of all types) involves a psyker.  The psychic phase section of the BWB refers frequently to "the psyker".  If the scribes are not "the psyker" casting the power, then some powers simply don't work at all (beams being a good example).

 

The scribes manifest the power, so they are "the psyker" as it pertains to the manifesting of said power.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

They're listed from page 156 to 174 of the Rulebook...

 

Psy-shock isn't in those pages, so isn't a 'Special Rule'. :P

 

That aside, the main point of my post is that the BRB list of 'Special Rules' isn't exhautive, yet we're given no guidance on what else qulaifies.

 

Does the mechanics of a Psychic Power, or the Power itself, qualify as a Special Rule?

 

Do Psychic Powers let you do things outside the 'normal' scope of the rules?  Or are Powers 'normal'?

 

Do the rules of Possession count as a 'Special Rule' the Blue Scribes ignore, or are they a 'normal' part of using the Power, which by RAW should then effect them?
 

[Venemox]

The manifesting of psychic powers (of all types) involves a psyker.  The psychic phase section of the BWB refers frequently to "the psyker".  If the scribes are not "the psyker" casting the power, then some powers simply don't work at all (beams being a good example).

 

The scribes manifest the power, so they are "the psyker" as it pertains to the manifesting of said power.

 

My point, exactly.  If we don't count the Scribes as the 'Psyker" for purposes of their powers, then they cannot benefit from: Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Foreboding, Perfect Timing, Precognition, Scrier's Gaze, Cursed Earth, Fiery Form, Levitation, or Shrouding.  And those are just the (non-Santic) powers that specifically benefit the Psyker (by title) in their description, never mind the whole host of rules about using any powers that refers to the Psyker (again, capitalized).

[Dam13n]

If we apply the tiniest modicum of common sense we arrive at the conclusion that any named rule that exists outside of the basic rules of the BWB is effectively "special", whether it be psy-shock, rampage, warpflame or 'ere we go.  A psychic power isn't in itself a special rule, but it might have one or more special rules listed in it's profile/description.