The Blue Scribes and Possession

[Gentlemanloser]

Why?  Pyschic Powers exist outside the basic rules of the BRB.

 

The abilities they give 'break the normal' game, like other Special Abilities.

 

If they don't class as special rules, but have special rules contained within them, does that mean the Blue Scribs get to use the power, but can't be effected by any Special Rules the powers might contain?

 

This is a big muddy mess, really.

[Dam13n]

That it may be, from a strict RAW perspective, but from a common sense perspective, it plays out OK.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thing is, I agree with Seahawks common sense answer;

 

 

 

Of course RAI is clear: They gibba and gabba some bound words from a scroll with zero comprehension of how it works, and poof something happens! Since they don't know anything and aren't psychic themselves, the warp-borne madness doesn't touch them, and onward they go.

 

I'm sure the intention is that they aren't Psykers, but are able to manifest certain 'powers' due to thier own abilities.

 

Like a Rogue using Use Magical Device to read a scroll of Summon Monster V. :P

[Teetengee]

Psychic powers are in the psychic powers section of the brb. This makes them advanced rules (iirc) but does not make them special rules. Named rules are special rules such as melta, and pyskout. Furthermore if the psychic powers section was special rules then the blue scribes could never manifest any powers ever as they would not be psykers for the purpose of these rules and therefore would not be eligible for the "select a psyker" step of manifesting a power. So two options

1. Psychic powers are not special rules, so if blue scribes cast possession they are removed as they are considered psykers for this non special rule purpose.

2. Blue scribes cannot manifest psychic powers (in spite of what appears to be the ability to do so) because they may never be selected in the "choose a psyker" step of the psychic phase as the psychic phase is a special rule (yes, an entire game phase integral to the game turn is now a special rule) and they are not considered a psyker for that purpose.

[Gentlemanloser]

IIRC Psychic Powers are part of the Appendix. Which also contains the Special rules section.

Edit:

On a slightly related note, is the +1A given by a Pair of Nemesis Falchions a 'Special Rule'?

If it is, that would make it different to the +1A given in the BRB basic rules for using two close combat weapons.

Blue scribes cannot manifest psychic powers (in spite of what appears to be the ability to do so) because they may never be selected in the "choose a psyker" step of the psychic phase as the psychic phase is a special rule (yes, an entire game phase integral to the game turn is now a special rule) and they are not considered a psyker for that purpose.

Why would the Psychic Phase (which comes between Movement and Shooting) ever be considered a Special Rule, over the Basic Rule?

[Teetengee]

Yes but the fact that you discuss the appendix as containing the special rules section as well as the psychic powers means that they are separable entities. That furthers the point that they are not special rules. The fact that one does not imply the other means they are not the same.

[Gentlemanloser]

Special rules aren't contained just in the Specail rules section.

 

Otherwise we're back to mindstrike missiles.

 

The Psychic Powers *aren't* part of the Basic Rules Psychic Phase section.

 

They aren't Basic or Advanced.

 

What are they?

 

Are they 'normal'?  Do they break the 'normal' rules of the game like Special Rules?

[Teetengee]

The appendix specifically states that it contains advanced rules (such as those also found in codices.). It has the subsections of special rules, weapons, terrain, psychic powers, etc. Therefore Psychic powers are explicitly advanced rules but not special rules. All advanced rules take precedence over the basic rules but not necessarily over each other. Also the introduction to the special rules subsection specifically mentions that psychic powers can bestow special rules (Thus indirectly showing that the psychic powers in and of themselves are not special rules.). Furthermore special rules are something a unit possesses, not something they do (unlike psychic powers in some sense).

Most importantly the special rules section says this (paraphrased)

Special rules are found in the special rules subsection of the appendix of the brb or in codices, though they are often referenced elsewhere.

 

Result:

Possession (and all other psychic powers) are not in either the special rules subsection of the appendix (they are in the psychic powers subsecton of the appendix) of the brb or in codices (though they are referenced often in many such places). Therefore they cannot be special rules, only advanced ones.

The Blue Scribes rule (which, since in a codex may itself be special or not, interesting discussion for a later date) states that only special rules do not treat it as a psyker. The psychic power possession, since it is not a special rule, therefore does treat the Blue Scribes as a psyker, and therefore if they cast it they will be removed as a casualty.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

The appendix specifically states that it contains advanced rules (such as those also found in codices.).

 

So the rules in Codexes are Advanced Rules, not Special Rules?

 

Can the Advanced Rules section contain Specail Rules?

[Dam13n]

Advanced rules are anything not contained in the basic rules.

Special rules are usually eponymous rules where a single word or short phrase is used to label them.

Universal special rules are those found in the BWB as they cross codices

Codex special rules are those found in specific codices, but not the BWB.

 

For example:

 

Mindstrike missiles have the "one use only" universal special rule and the "psy-shock" codex special rule.  In the case of weapons, these special rules are listed in the weapons type after their basic description ("Heavy 1", for example).

[Gentlemanloser]

What about non wepaon entries, like Psyk-out or Rad  'nades?

 

Edit: Also, so the Blue Scribes count as Psykers for the Deny rules, as they aren't Special Rules.

 

So they Deny better than usual, as they are Psykers.

 

What's thier PML?

[Teetengee]

Sorry ie so quoting doesn't work

Codex rules may be special rules and are definitely advanced rules. This is stated in the brb.

Special rules are a subset of the advanced rules. This is stated in the brb.

Weapon entries may reference special rules (if the weapon is in the brb) or may be special rules if they are in codices (that is not clear).

 

Also RAW I believe the blue scribes would get a bonus to their deny rolls but they either do not have a pml rating or have a rating of 0 or maybe 1 if there is some rule somewhere that says assume one unless told elsewise.

If they have a rating of zero or one than the deny rules are obvious.

If they don't have a rating, I believe that neither the scribes nor any unit trying to deny them get a bonus for being a higher pml as it would be false to say a number is higher than an absence but it would also be false to say an absence is higher than a number (as they are incomparable any comparison is false).

[Spinsanity]

I'd say they are considered psykers ONLY insofar as they can cast spells, but that's pretty much it; regarding DTW, they'd need to have the Psyker (Mastery level X) special rule to get any kind of bonus, which they don't have.

 

Or so it seems (to me anyway) o.Ô

[Teetengee]

I agree with Player not found as far as RAI is considered, but GML does bring up an interesting point that they may receive a +1 to deny the witch. Once again, we should probably wait for an faq/errata.

[Seahawk]

Since they are not a Psyker, they can't get the +1. That'd be how I'd play it.

 

Some good points were raised; since they are not a Psyker, and the special rule specifically states it, any power such as Iron Arm and the like will not take affect. Sure they'll manifest it, but it will fizzle and do nothing for them. 

[Dam13n]

So, hinging on whether they are considered to be "the psyker" or not (for the purposes of casting their random powers), we have 2 groups:

 

Yes - they can cast pretty much anything, but that isn't always a good thing ;)

No - they cannot cast certain psychic powers, because they are not a valid target for said power, or the power cannot be measured from them, etc.  But they suffer no ill effects from the powers they cast (or fail to cast).

 

I'm in the yes group, but I can see how the no argument works.  It seems to be a prime candidate for a house rule.  So long as they are played consistently, I'd think either interpretation would be acceptable.

[Seahawk]

Thing is that they can't ever fail to cast. It's a non-psyker character with a unique item that spits out spells, completely independent of the bearer. In WHFB terms, it's a magic item that contains a bound spell; here, there is no issue because the item and character are separate, and there are rules for that.

 

This is the problem when GW tries to write a dual-game unit with a single set of special rules.

 

The way I'd like to play it is: The Scribes are not a psyker (RAW), and nothing that targets/affects/is affected by psykers applies to them (RAW). They, or rather their item, automatically manifests a random power every turn (RAW). Any measurement that's required for the power is measured from their base (even though they are not "the psyker") (RAI). Any good/ill effects that normally affect "the psyker" are discarded/ignored (RAW). 

 

 

This would mean:

- Mindstrike and etc would not nail them

- They don't benefit/suffer from powers that affect them (iron arm, etc)

- They can manifest conjuration powers (measured from their base)

- They don't go splat when manifesting Possession

[Raeven]

The scribes are the only exception to the rule that only psykers can manifest powers. So it would be pointless and wasteful to write all the powers to include mention of them. The powers obviously intend for the model that manifests possession to be the model that suffers the consequences.

 

But as you say, it isn't purely RAW.

[Gentlemanloser]

It would also be pretty pointless for them to have an item that fails to manifest the power it rolls dues to not being able to effect the Scribes as they aren't classed as Psykers.

 

Just another thing that has fallen down the cracks of new systems in 7th.