Necron Lord reanimating after Sweeping Advance

[DasPanzerIstUber]

Basically I hit something with a chainsword and it didn't die. A very worrying prospect for a Templar!

Game situation is: I charged into a squad of Necron Warriors including a Necron Lord with a Resurrection Orb. Half the Warriors are hacked apart while the Lord survives challenge. They fail the morale check and I beat their initiative and run down the lot of them. Then the Lord just got back up. WAT

I thought it was BS but didn't say anything because I honestly don't know half of my own rules, let alone Necrons. :P

I apologise if it's come up before. My search fu is just as weak as my sword arm apparently.

[The Librarian]

As long as he passed his roll for reanimation, he is back up with a single wound.

I think the rules are like that.

[SvenONE]

My Necron friend and I have always said no in that scenario. The grounds being that Sweeping Advance rules dont specifically say the unit is killed, but can also be captured and taken prisoner. This rule conundrum has always existed though and most people roll it off.

[Venemox]

If the model was solo before death, you have to make sure to cover at least all areas 2.1 inches around the Ever Living counter (It MUST reanimate within 3 inches of that counter  AND not within 1 inch of an enemy model,or it cannot reanimate).  Additionally, if the Ever Living model was joined to a unit before death, it MUST reanimate in coherency with that unit.  If that unit no longer exists, it cannot reanimate.  Codex: Necrons, page 29.

 

Running down a Lord with Resurrection Orb after combat is the most reliable way to kill them (and have them stay dead).

[DasPanzerIstUber]

Thanks for the replies.

 

My opponent didn't even have a counter, just knocked over the model and rolled for reanimate before I even made a consolidate move.

 

When does the roll actually take place? Is it possible to deny reanimation by covering the 3" bubble around the counter?

[Venemox]

Thanks for the replies.

 

My opponent didn't even have a counter, just knocked over the model and rolled for reanimate before I even made a consolidate move.

 

When does the roll actually take place? Is it possible to deny reanimation by covering the 3" bubble around the counter?

Knocking the model over is standard for Reanimation Protocols  or Ever Living.  Just a different type of counter, that's all.

 

The rolls occur at the end of a phase, after Morale Checks and fall back moves have been made.  So yes, you consolidate before the roll is made.  For either type, the model must be places in coherency with a member of the unit that did NOT return to play via Reanimation Protocols the same turn, but at least 1 inch away from enemy models.  Yes, denying the 3" bubble denies the reanimation for a SOLO Ever Living model.  Once again, if the model was attached to a unit before it died, it must return to play in coherency with that unit.  If it unable to FOR ANY REASON, it cannot attempt to reanimate.  Positioning is key to denying Reanimation Protocols and Ever Living models the chance to return to play.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

The guy gets back up. Everliving is slightly different from Reanimation Protocols. See, if only an Everliving counter is left, any and all Reanimation counters are removed, but the Everliving model still gets the roll. If he was part of a unit, he must join them if possible. If not, he just stands there, alone (and horribly vulnerable), within 3 inches of where his counter was placed. Everliving "overrules" Reanimation Protocols, being far more effective, and not requiring a unit to be nearby to work. Indeed, the 6th edition FAQ spells this out in plain form (see below). Other than that, it works in the same way, and benefits from the same items and special rules (like the Res Orb and anything else that would kick in).

 

 

 

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal

Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol

rolls? (p29)

A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached

character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this

case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has

been wiped out.

[SvenONE]

It's still super murky and the trick is always to just surround them so they can't get up (assuming you can consolidate enough).

 

Sweeping Advance's description:

 

 

We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or otherwise sent packing so demoralised that they won’t return; its members are left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best, fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

 

 

So in the case he's swept, how could he get up if he's captured/fleeing/or hiding, that's where I say that you can't do it.  But then again Everliving kicks in only after the model is removed as a casualty.  Also at the same time in order to be swept you first have to fail a leadership check which removes the counters.  I always chalk this one to the "most important rule" and it's a roll-off to see how it ends up.

[Venemox]

 

The guy gets back up. Everliving is slightly different from Reanimation Protocols. See, if only an Everliving counter is left, any and all Reanimation counters are removed, but the Everliving model still gets the roll. If he was part of a unit, he must join them if possible. If not, he just stands there, alone (and horribly vulnerable), within 3 inches of where his counter was placed. Everliving "overrules" Reanimation Protocols, being far more effective, and not requiring a unit to be nearby to work. Indeed, the 6th edition FAQ spells this out in plain form (see below). Other than that, it works in the same way, and benefits from the same items and special rules (like the Res Orb and anything else that would kick in).

 

 

 

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal

Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol

rolls? (p29)

A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached

character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this

case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has

been wiped out.

 

You need to use the current 7th Edition FAQ, which does NOT contain this statement.  There is a sticky at the top of the Official Rules page, if you're having a hard time finding them.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

 

The guy gets back up. Everliving is slightly different from Reanimation Protocols. See, if only an Everliving counter is left, any and all Reanimation counters are removed, but the Everliving model still gets the roll. If he was part of a unit, he must join them if possible. If not, he just stands there, alone (and horribly vulnerable), within 3 inches of where his counter was placed. Everliving "overrules" Reanimation Protocols, being far more effective, and not requiring a unit to be nearby to work. Indeed, the 6th edition FAQ spells this out in plain form (see below). Other than that, it works in the same way, and benefits from the same items and special rules (like the Res Orb and anything else that would kick in).

 

 

 

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal

Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol

rolls? (p29)

A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached

character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this

case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has

been wiped out.

 

You need to use the current 7th Edition FAQ, which does NOT contain this statement.  There is a sticky at the top of the Official Rules page, if you're having a hard time finding them.

 

 

Indeed, I know this, I play Necrons so I obviously have the updated FAQs. Still, the older FAQ shows us how GW dealt with the issue not too long ago, so we have something to go on. Furthermore, the rules as they are written make no exceptions for Sweeping Advances. Everliving is also different (though similar) to Reanimation Protocols, so the latter's caveats don't apply unless Everliving states that they do.

[Venemox]

 

 

 

The guy gets back up. Everliving is slightly different from Reanimation Protocols. See, if only an Everliving counter is left, any and all Reanimation counters are removed, but the Everliving model still gets the roll. If he was part of a unit, he must join them if possible. If not, he just stands there, alone (and horribly vulnerable), within 3 inches of where his counter was placed. Everliving "overrules" Reanimation Protocols, being far more effective, and not requiring a unit to be nearby to work. Indeed, the 6th edition FAQ spells this out in plain form (see below). Other than that, it works in the same way, and benefits from the same items and special rules (like the Res Orb and anything else that would kick in).

 

 

 

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal

Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol

rolls? (p29)

A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached

character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this

case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has

been wiped out.

 

You need to use the current 7th Edition FAQ, which does NOT contain this statement.  There is a sticky at the top of the Official Rules page, if you're having a hard time finding them.

 

 

Indeed, I know this, I play Necrons so I obviously have the updated FAQs. Still, the older FAQ shows us how GW dealt with the issue not too long ago, so we have something to go on. Furthermore, the rules as they are written make no exceptions for Sweeping Advances. Everliving is also different (though similar) to Reanimation Protocols, so the latter's caveats don't apply unless Everliving states that they do.

 

Yes, we have something to go on.  Last edition they consciously made this ruling that went against how the wording of the rule would seem to make it work.  This edition, knowing the wording remained the same, they consciously chose not to continue with hat interpretation.  The previous (now defunct) FAQ is tacit admission to the rule being written so the other interpretation is valid by GW.

 

The Ever Living rules made the statement that the Ever Living model MUST be placed within coherency of the unit it was a part of when it died.  In the Ever Living section.  So it's a caveat of Ever Living, NOT Reanimation Protocols being quoted here.  First sentence, second paragraph of Ever Living.  if the unit has ceased to exist, it is impossible to place the IC such that it forms an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2" horizontally and up to 6" vertically with those models, thereby triggering the penultimate sentence of the Ever Living rule: If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return.

 

The Sweepeing Advances argument is one that places enemy models in such a fashion that there is no place within 3" of the Ever Living token (or a Necron model part of the unit) that is not also within 1" of an enemy model, thereby triggering the penultimate sentence of the Ever Living rule: If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return.

[Raeven]

The problem with sweeping advance, is that it says at the end of the paragraph, "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

 

The FAQ did that.  Since this passage is no longer in the FAQ, Everliving is no longer protection against Sweeping Advances.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

The problem with sweeping advance, is that it says at the end of the paragraph, "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

 

The FAQ did that.  Since this passage is no longer in the FAQ, Everliving is no longer protection against Sweeping Advances.

 

My objections are withdrawn. Carry on.

[Aphyria]

Just wanted to point out something in the Sweeping Advance rules (digital edition here, so no page number, sorry) - 

 

We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or otherwise sent packing so demoralised that they won't return; its members are left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best, fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is already over.

 

(Emphasis is mine). They're removed as casualties, which is what triggers RP is it not? (Now of course, doesn't matter for normal RP, since the whole unit is gone, but for EL however...) In this instance, a special rule does seem to be saying otherwise, as the trigger is there, although I suppose you could argue that it doesn't specify exactly that it works against Sweeping Advance...

[Ozshock]

ill point out the wording JUST after the bold text you had Aphyria...

 

Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rexcue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is already over...

 

i would say no you cannot resurrect as the everliving rule (may not?) does not allow you to specifically save urself from being "wiped out" from a sweeping advance...and i dont think animation protocols allows it either...it says "unless otherwise specified", and those rules dont otherwise specify

 

so no...you cannot resurrect after a sweeping advance

 

think of it this way...the unit has been run down while running away...the attacking unit has then proceeded to hack the remaining warriors to pieces...how could they ever possibly get up from that?

[Aphyria]

I did point that out too Oz, and said that it could be argued that RP/EL does actually specify at that stage. (Plus, they get hacked to pieces normally and can still get back up, so that analogy doesn't really make much sense o.O)

 

To elaborate further, it says 'rescue the unit at this stage' - if (and this is where it's certainly ambiguous) 'this stage' refers to the being removed as casualties, then RP/EL does specify otherwise as they specifically trigger from being removed as casualties. Of course, normal RP wouldn't work, as the whole unit is destroyed (a stipulation in the RP rules), but for an EL model, such as an Overlord, getting swept at the end of combat and being removed as a casualty would then trigger EL. 

 

It could just be future-proofing though, and suggesting that some rule later on may specifically say 'can even be used when caught by a sweeping advance'. I can't argue intent though; I don't know the developers.

[Ozshock]

but the rule states that "no save or special rule can rescue the unit"

i would count both EL and RP as special rules trying to rescue the unit...why would they not? both activate at the "removed as casualties" step, but then the rule states no special rule can rescue them, they are obliterated for all intents and purposes...

and you can hack off limbs from necron warriors and they just magnetize back together (RP)...why wouldnt you stop for a few moments and hack it to MANY pieces once you catch them retreating? i know i would

i guess "otherwise specified" could count as the trigger for RP/EP in being removed as casualties...dont have the rule in front of me atm for everliving

[Aphyria]

Yes, it's a special rule (and again, only matters for EL here since a unit doesn't get RP if the whole unit is gone), but it does say 'Unless otherwise specified'. The problem here is the addition of 'at this stage' and the fact that RP/EL triggers off of being removed as a casualty - does the sentence mean that special rules that trigger from that stage (i.e. - being removed as a casualty) can work, as they specify doing something at that stage? Or does it mean that only rules that explicitly mention bypassing Sweeping Advance matter? 

[Raeven]

They need to specifically mention sweeping advance. There are numerous ways to be "Removed as a casualty". Losing all wounds, Instant death, rammed by a vehicle. Etc.

[Aphyria]

I know it's a nuance, but it says 'rescue...at this stage', not 'rescue...from sweeping advance'; does at this stage refer to Sweeping Advance (as a sub-phase), or to the act of being removed as a casualty? If it's the former, then yeah, the model certainly wouldn't get EL. If it's the latter however, it sounds like it would (to me anyway).

 

I play a couple of armies, one of which is Necrons - I would love for this to apply, but I also know that the argument comes from a small, nuanced section of the rule. Just wanting to check, as there are a few things in the new rulebook that have a couple weird interpretations floating about (like CCB's and IC special rule, and Blasts/Templates interacting with ruins - says everything under or partially under, but also says take a good look from above; some people were arguing that that means only those visible from said good look would count as being under, for instance)