combat squading. to do or not to do?

[Captain Coolpants]

Its already a solid tactic to combat squad purifiers in a single rhino and give a dual blast of cleansing flame. BUT, when that rhino blows (and it will) will the combat squaded purifiers still seem like a good idea?

And is combat squading other choices worth doing? Obviously the main benefits to combat squading is extra warp charges and more targets for your enemy to deal with,but this makes each squad smaller and easier to pick off,which would be bad for kill point games.

 

So....what would you consider a worthy combat squad choice? And why?

 

Thanks guys :-D

[Rurik the blessed]

I think for purifiers, you must always combat squad the unit. Because no mather how long does the rhino resist the enemy fire. Purifiers are fearless so, no mather if they are splited into 5 man each, they will not run. Warp points are our best weapon now and we must maximize them as more as we can.

[Valerian]

No reason that I can think of not to do it for Terminators or Purifiers.  The generation of extra Warp Charge, and more Scoring units is a big deal.  Plus, at the Purifiers are Fearless, so they're not going to break and run, which helps offset their smaller size. 

[Grand Master Caloth]

For strikes, I would urge caution, but I have done it. My Paladins, I always CS, Apothecary with the 4 psycannons, the other 5 rolling on their own

[Captain Coolpants]

Do you think it's worth Combat squading deepstriking strikes/interceptors?

Or shunting interceptors? Because they're our squishiest choices in out Codex :-P

. I've always liked the idea of giving a strike squad a razorbacks and combat squading half to deepstrike. But it's never been a very good idea to leave 5 guys in the open for me.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Generally speaking, the only reason you wouldn't combat squad is if you need a full 10-man squad to take something on. Most enemy infantry can be dealt with by half a squad though. 

[jeffersonian000]

The only time Combat Squading isn't the best choice is in Kill Point games. More specifically, 7th GK meta is drifting towards 5man units to push up the Warp Pool, with 10nan units bought for perks (Psybolts, Rhino), then Combat Squaded for Warp Charges. An argument can be made for 5man only units to maximize WC via max Dedicated Transports. Personally, I'm looking at 5man GKT units as a core, with multiple 5man GKIS, because I still think of GK as a 'TDA over Rhinos' army.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I have no idea why you'd ever take Rhinos. The easiest First Blood for opponents, it won't last long enough for its mobility to matter, and Henchmen can bring more Psykers and Warp Charges for the same points. 

[Captain Coolpants]

I find myself always taking rhinos. Especially since its hard to insta blow anything nowadays. Strikes in rhinos tend to work well, because deepstriking against a tau player is just silly. I've always combat squaded termies because they're tough.

[Ozshock]

i disagree with the no rhinos concept...

 

most of the time the oppoonents i face have ample firepower to nuke ur MEQ units off the board pretty easily...in rhinos they ar egiven that chance to get forward alot quicker than they would otherwise...and purifiers need to be within 9"

 

as for combat squadding the purifiers...do it...cleansing flame can no longer be cast while in combat...but it can be cast into combat...they destroy rhino...only able to charge 1 squad of 5 purifiers, other squad next turn cleansing flame, charge in and finish the job

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I find myself always taking rhinos. Especially since its hard to insta blow anything nowadays. Strikes in rhinos tend to work well, because deepstriking against a tau player is just silly. I've always combat squaded termies because they're tough. 

 

Have you played gunline lists? AV11 is the least they can manage, they're geared to fight multiple AV12 targets. Rhinos pop very easily to Tau, Eldar, IG, even Orks etc.

most of the time the oppoonents i face have ample firepower to nuke ur MEQ units off the board pretty easily...in rhinos they ar egiven that chance to get forward alot quicker than they would otherwise...and purifiers need to be within 9"

 

So, use alternate deployment or mobility to overcome it. Putting yourself in the deathtraps that current transports are is a bad plan. You get at best one turn of extra movement, then you're entangled in flaming wreckage. Knights simply can't field the critical mass of armour to make mech work, we at best put down 4 transports then get focused down too fast. Mech works when you spam 6+ hulls onto the field. In a normal list, we simply can't do that, not without sacrificing our already pathetic bodycount. 

 

Purifiers don't need to be within 9". 'Cleansing Flame' is a deterrent, not an offensive ability. Camp at 24" and drown your opponents in psycannon, force them to charge you. 

as for combat squadding the purifiers...do it...cleansing flame can no longer be cast while in combat...but it can be cast into combat...they destroy rhino...only able to charge 1 squad of 5 purifiers, other squad next turn cleansing flame, charge in and finish the job

 

Nova's specifically state they can be cast in melee. 'Cleansing Flame' is DESIGNED to be used in melee. 

 

I'd keep Purifiers together TBH. Its easier to buff the entire unit with 'Prescience', plus you want ablative dudes to keep the psycannon guys alive. 

[Ozshock]

if AV11 is easy to crack...then how would a toughness 4 model with a 3+ save go?? ive played gunline lists and get ripped to shreds first turn WITHOUT using a bunker...at least it gives me some survivability to get close for turn 2...and now its harder to crack them with one shot, sure glance them to death but hey...its supposed to be done

and cleansing flame is a witchfire nova power...witchfire states that it cant be cast while in melee, but can be cast at models that are stuck in melee...under the witchfire ruling in the psychic phase section of the BRB

bit of a nerf to our purifiers as now you have to keep them out of combat to be effective that way

[Reclusiarch Darius]

if AV11 is easy to crack...then how would a toughness 4 model with a 3+ save go?? ive played gunline lists and get ripped to shreds first turn WITHOUT using a bunker...at least it gives me some survivability to get close for turn 2...and now its harder to crack them with one shot, sure glance them to death but hey...its supposed to be done

 

Use LoS blocking terrain in your games, make good use of cover (Riptides are broken but whatev). You don't need terrible transports to get upfield anyway. We have Deepstrike, Outflank, Scout all as alternative deployment options for our infantry. Also, you need to shove threats in the enemy's face to force them to prioritise. Do they wanna nuke your infantry, or kill that DK about to charge them next turn? Etc etc. Marching up the field to get slaughtered is equally bad as meching, I agree. That's why things like Ravens and Interceptors are money, as they can get upfield Turn 1 and into charge range. 

and cleansing flame is a witchfire nova power...witchfire states that it cant be cast while in melee, but can be cast at models that are stuck in melee...under the witchfire ruling in the psychic phase section of the BRB

 

Thanks for correcting me man. Oh Throne GW, really? Sigh...I'm hoping they FAQ it at some point, otherwise 'Cleansing Flame' is basically unusable. 

[Rurik the blessed]

(What does means MEQ?)

 

One more reason for Combat squading units, is the opportunity to sgoot at a different target.

Some times i kill the enemy whith half of the shoots.

[Captain Coolpants]

Well going against a gun line enemy. Our measly 24" isn't good enough. So we have to get in the enemy as fast as possible. So if you deepstrike, you're gonna get intercepted, and your squads are all squished neatly together waiting to get pie plated. Any proper gun line army has ample AA. And tau mostly ignore cover. So either deepstrike everything/flier transport... All get annihilated... Or run them up in tanks, and actually stand a small chance by using cover/sanctuary

[Valerian]

(What does means MEQ?)

 

 

Marine Equivalent, so T4 with a 3+ Armor Save.  TEQ is Terminator equivalent, and GEQ is Guard Equivalent (i.e. Imperial Guard, or what we now know as Astra Militarium).

[Rurik the blessed]

 

(What does means MEQ?)

 

 

Marine Equivalent, so T4 with a 3+ Armor Save.  TEQ is Terminator equivalent, and GEQ is Guard Equivalent (i.e. Imperial Guard, or what we now know as Astra Militarium).

 

 

oh, thx... now my life has a new direction... ;)

[IndigoJack]

Use LoS blocking terrain in your games, make good use of cover (Riptides are broken but whatev). You don't need terrible transports to get upfield anyway. We have Deepstrike, Outflank, Scout all as alternative deployment options for our infantry. Also, you need to shove threats in the enemy's face to force them to prioritise. Do they wanna nuke your infantry, or kill that DK about to charge them next turn? Etc etc. Marching up the field to get slaughtered is equally bad as meching, I agree. That's why things like Ravens and Interceptors are money, as they can get upfield Turn 1 and into charge range.

I use LoS blocking terrain extensively. It's the reason I still have transports alive at turn 5/6. Also, the changes to the damage table have only helped transports (if only slightly) in that you will no longer be one-shot by that lucky missile. All of this is over-looking the biggest changes to vehicles, that they're scoring. Objective secured transports? Yes, please. Even if you chose to deep strike or outflank (both of which are far less reliable) you can still use them if you have a transport.

 

 

As far as combat squads goes, I'd say yes almost every time. It increases your scoring, shooting efficiency, and target saturation. I might even combat squad in a kill point game as long as the handicap isn't too big.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well going against a gun line enemy. Our measly 24" isn't good enough. So we have to get in the enemy as fast as possible. So if you deepstrike, you're gonna get intercepted, and your squads are all squished neatly together waiting to get pie plated. Any proper gun line army has ample AA. And tau mostly ignore cover. So either deepstrike everything/flier transport... All get annihilated... Or run them up in tanks, and actually stand a small chance by using cover/sanctuary 

 

Yeah, Deepstrike is risky. So is Outflanking. Hence why Shunting units and Scout from 'TGS' are our least easily countered ways of getting upfield quickly. 

 

Tau don't auto-ignore cover anymore, at least not on Riptides. If the Pathfinders are dead, they only have the Support O' for ignoring cover. So, Turn 1, shunt incinerators into the Pathfinders. 

 

Interceptor is broken. More news at 11 ;) . I'm just saying, marching upfield or meching is even worse odds of success. Tau take apart AV11 without even needing re-rolls or ignore cover/Tank Hunters etc. IG and Eldar are the same. Ravens, Shunting and Scouting at least mitigate some of the gunline lists strengths, and if you put DK's and Interceptors into their face Turn 1, the rest of your force stands a chance of being ignored while they focus-fire your fast units. 

I use LoS blocking terrain extensively. It's the reason I still have transports alive at turn 5/6. Also, the changes to the damage table have only helped transports (if only slightly) in that you will no longer be one-shot by that lucky missile. All of this is over-looking the biggest changes to vehicles, that they're scoring. Objective secured transports? Yes, please. Even if you chose to deep strike or outflank (both of which are far less reliable) you can still use them if you have a transport.

 

The new damage table means precisely diddly, as Hull Points still exist. Being glanced to death is still a thing, and will remain a thing until GW get rid of HP. Which is never, so back onto the shelf transports go. 

 

'Objective Secured' only matters if your Troops are either numerous or durable enough to make it worthwhile. Rhinos are neither of those things, at least in a Knight list (in a Henchmen mech list you'd take Razors anyway). 

[IndigoJack]

The inherent randomness of TGS is its own counter. When building a list, you can only ever count on getting one unit, and not exactly delivering a solid presence in your opponents face. Combined with shunting it could work, but that requires a significant investment (both for the GM and for teleporting DK and/or interceptors) and a sacrifice in the form of fewer bodies on the table.

 

The changes to the damage table are huge, with implications far and wide reaching. That lone meltagun in a tac squad's chance of blowing up a vehicle went down by 33%. Lascannons now only blow you up on a 6. AP 3+ can never blow you up and now has to strip you of hull points (or immobilize you twice). I've already seen a sharp decline in missile launchers and autocannons in my area, as people prefer the lascannon for its armor punching potential (and the hope for that 6). The reduced chance of explosion keeps occupants safe as you are less likely to take damage from explosions. Hardly what I'd call "diddly." I feel like you want vehicles to return to what they were in 5th; hard to kill boxes. Sorry, most people I've talked to agree that was terrible.

 

I think OS rhinos are better than your giving them credit for. While my psybacks are still dealing out the pain after the occupants have disembarked, the rhino fairly is benign. This moves it down your opponents priority level, and increases it's odds of survival. Of the 7 games I've played in 7th, two of them I've won due to objective secured transports. these are games I would have been considered tabled in back in 6th.

[AnImA8]

 

Use LoS blocking terrain in your games, make good use of cover (Riptides are broken but whatev). You don't need terrible transports to get upfield anyway. We have Deepstrike, Outflank, Scout all as alternative deployment options for our infantry. Also, you need to shove threats in the enemy's face to force them to prioritise. Do they wanna nuke your infantry, or kill that DK about to charge them next turn? Etc etc. Marching up the field to get slaughtered is equally bad as meching, I agree. That's why things like Ravens and Interceptors are money, as they can get upfield Turn 1 and into charge range. 

 

and cleansing flame is a witchfire nova power...witchfire states that it cant be cast while in melee, but can be cast at models that are stuck in melee...under the witchfire ruling in the psychic phase section of the BRB

 

Thanks for correcting me man. Oh Throne GW, really? Sigh...I'm hoping they FAQ it at some point, otherwise 'Cleansing Flame' is basically unusable. 

 

Mech is totally fine atm, if not better RD. The cover hopping you're describing can be applied to mech but with more ease since the vehicles can move up to 18" in a turn (compared to infantry 6+d6), and actually get a better save now too (5+ is the norm for non-ruin cover for infantry, but vehicles that are 25% or more obscured get 4+ cover regardless of what is providing it).

 

Also, don't discount Cleansing Flame so easily man! Mech purifiers (or Raveifiers, if you don't like Mech) can absolutely get into range to use it offensively. And let me tell you, when you get even 2 combat squads in to range to use it, they absolutely shred whatever is around them.

 

 

I'm just saying, marching upfield or meching is even worse odds of success. Tau take apart AV11 without even needing re-rolls or ignore cover/Tank Hunters etc. IG and Eldar are the same. Ravens, Shunting and Scouting at least mitigate some of the gunline lists strengths, and if you put DK's and Interceptors into their face Turn 1, the rest of your force stands a chance of being ignored while they focus-fire your fast units. 

I use LoS blocking terrain extensively. It's the reason I still have transports alive at turn 5/6. Also, the changes to the damage table have only helped transports (if only slightly) in that you will no longer be one-shot by that lucky missile. All of this is over-looking the biggest changes to vehicles, that they're scoring. Objective secured transports? Yes, please. Even if you chose to deep strike or outflank (both of which are far less reliable) you can still use them if you have a transport.

 

The new damage table means precisely diddly, as Hull Points still exist. Being glanced to death is still a thing, and will remain a thing until GW get rid of HP. Which is never, so back onto the shelf transports go. 

 

'Objective Secured' only matters if your Troops are either numerous or durable enough to make it worthwhile. Rhinos are neither of those things, at least in a Knight list (in a Henchmen mech list you'd take Razors anyway). 

 

The problem with Ravens, Shunting, and Scouting is that they don't protect your guys. Ravens actually kill your models when they go down (and Tau have no qualms shooting down Flyers), Shunting can get you where you need to be but doesn't change the fact that you're unable to assault and in 3+ armor.

 

And the new damage table actually means a lot for our vehicles. Too often the problem I found with mech wasn't that my vehicles could get glanced to death, it was that they exploded on the first turn. Now my opponents MUST invest 3 (non-AP2-) shots into my vehicle rather than just hope they get lucky. More and more, that 4 HP Land Raider is looking really good to me.

 

As for Objective Secured: it always looks worthwhile to me. Our troops are actually incredibly good compared to other armies, and while Purifiers are amazing there is no reason to go for Purifiers over Terminators unless TGS or Crowe is in the picture. The ability to score objectives over non-troop choices is too good to pass up.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The inherent randomness of TGS is its own counter. When building a list, you can only ever count on getting one unit, and not exactly delivering a solid presence in your opponents face. Combined with shunting it could work, but that requires a significant investment (both for the GM and for teleporting DK and/or interceptors) and a sacrifice in the form of fewer bodies on the table.

 

So? If it was 'pick three units and give them this rule for free', it would be broken as hell. D3 balances its sheer power with, as you say, the probability of only getting one unit buffed. I'm fine with it only affecting one unit, if that unit is key to your strategy. You shouldn't be relying on 'TGS' alone anyway, we have plenty of ways of getting upfield without it. 

The changes to the damage table are huge, with implications far and wide reaching. That lone meltagun in a tac squad's chance of blowing up a vehicle went down by 33%. Lascannons now only blow you up on a 6. AP 3+ can never blow you up and now has to strip you of hull points (or immobilize you twice). I've already seen a sharp decline in missile launchers and autocannons in my area, as people prefer the lascannon for its armor punching potential (and the hope for that 6). The reduced chance of explosion keeps occupants safe as you are less likely to take damage from explosions. Hardly what I'd call "diddly." I feel like you want vehicles to return to what they were in 5th; hard to kill boxes. Sorry, most people I've talked to agree that was terrible.

 

Except what you're ignoring is that no one relies on single melta or lascannon shots to do anything, and if they were they're noobs. Anyone building anti-tank into their list takes multiples, preferably on the same squad if they can. 

 

Hull Points make the damage table irrelevant. Autocannon and other such S6/7 spam weapons still strip your HP away exactly the same. AP1 and AP2 bonuses override the drawbacks of the new damage table, so melta is still king of killing high AV. As you say, the real losers are lascannons, missile launchers, and other 'middle of the road' AT, which was already in decline in 5th and 6th. So functionally, the way people build to kill vehicles has not changed at all between 6th and 7th. 

I think OS rhinos are better than your giving them credit for. While my psybacks are still dealing out the pain after the occupants have disembarked, the rhino fairly is benign. This moves it down your opponents priority level, and increases it's odds of survival. Of the 7 games I've played in 7th, two of them I've won due to objective secured transports. these are games I would have been considered tabled in back in 6th. 

 

I've heard this argument before, even back in 5th. No, the existence of other units doesn't magically make bad units 'much more survivable'. Its bad logic to assume any action on your opponents part. For all you know, they'll focus down your transports Turn 1, because they know what the cargo does. Or, they'll use chaff to block off any meaningful progress up the board (horde armies are notorious for this), bogging you down in cheap worthless blobs while the annoying power units rain hell on you. 

 

Also, to take your argument to its logical extreme, we don't have the critical mass of mech to make your strategy work. The reason IG, BA/SW Razorspam and our own Henchmen Razorspam works is because they put 6+ vehicles down on the table and ask the opponent to kill them all. Usually, they kill about half, the remaining cargo+transport gets where it needs to be in time, and they win accordingly. Knights will struggle (without spamming Strikes) to put down even 5 x AV11 hulls in a normal game. Henchmen are always going to be drastically less expensive to do it with, and moreover you don't care if the Razorback dies, because the cargo is 12 points of chaff, not minimum 100pts of Knights. 

 

If your opponents aren't killing Troop dedicated transports in 7th, they're idiots. As you say, you've won games with 'Objective Secured' vehicles. Given 3HP at AV11 is not especially hard to kill (its statistically harder to kill 3 Marines, depending on AP values), it's within the realms of possibility for all but the jankiest lists. 

Mech is totally fine atm, if not better RD. The cover hopping you're describing can be applied to mech but with more ease since the vehicles can move up to 18" in a turn (compared to infantry 6+d6), and actually get a better save now too (5+ is the norm for non-ruin cover for infantry, but vehicles that are 25% or more obscured get 4+ cover regardless of what is providing it).

 

See above

Also, don't discount Cleansing Flame so easily man! Mech purifiers (or Raveifiers, if you don't like Mech) can absolutely get into range to use it offensively. And let me tell you, when you get even 2 combat squads in to range to use it, they absolutely shred whatever is around them.

 

Putting Purifiers in Rhinos is drawing a huge target on them for your opponent. If he doesn't focus those Rhinos down Turn 1, he's doing it wrong by definition. Also, Rhinos (unlike Ravens) can be stopped by chaff walls or other deployment tricks. Ravens fly over all that nonsense and can deliver two combat squads (and thus double-casting potential) into the heart of enemy lines. 'Cleansing Flame' is absurd if you can set it up right, but I don't see Rhinos living long enough to deliver your Purifiers where they are needed. 

The problem with Ravens, Shunting, and Scouting is that they don't protect your guys. Ravens actually kill your models when they go down (and Tau have no qualms shooting down Flyers), Shunting can get you where you need to be but doesn't change the fact that you're unable to assault and in 3+ armor.

 

What do you want, free invulnerable saves? Rhinos don't protect you either, they're AV11 deathtraps. 

Raven's aren't invulnerable. So what? It's a risk, like everything in 40k. 

Shunting has to be done intelligently, otherwise as you say you're just feeding your units to the enemy gunline. 30" unrestricted movement is huge though, you'd be surprised how with aggressive deployment the places it can get you Turn 1. Scouting is much the same, when used correctly you can set up a devastating ranged punch Turn 1 and the threat of melee Turn 2. If I trade Interceptors to ensure all the enemy Pathfinders are dead (or their psychic support, or Lootaz, or Havoks etc etc), in some matchups thats a good trade. Ideally of course you don't wanna lose your expensive Knights, but 40k is a game of sacrifice. If you hit hard enough Turn 1, their deaths can be worth it. 

And the new damage table actually means a lot for our vehicles. Too often the problem I found with mech wasn't that my vehicles could get glanced to death, it was that they exploded on the first turn. Now my opponents MUST invest 3 (non-AP2-) shots into my vehicle rather than just hope they get lucky. More and more, that 4 HP Land Raider is looking really good to me.

 

No, as I mentioned earlier, stripping Hull Points works exactly the same. 

Melta still nukes Land Raiders, as do Monstrous Creatures in melee. I'm hoping the abuse of allied PFG Librarian and 'Sanctuary' can revive the Land Raider, but time will tell. 

As for Objective Secured: it always looks worthwhile to me. Our troops are actually incredibly good compared to other armies, and while Purifiers are amazing there is no reason to go for Purifiers over Terminators unless TGS or Crowe is in the picture. The ability to score objectives over non-troop choices is too good to pass up.

 

Agreed. 'Objective Secured' is very powerful on durable or spammable units, as you can really make your opponent work to get your objectives off you. That's why I'd use 'TGS' for Scouting/Outflanking over granting scoring status in most matchups, as you should build your list with a solid Troops core without relying on 'TGS' to shore it up. The beauty of 'TGS' is that it is so flexible, so it's up to you to judge which buff to grant which units. 

[AnImA8]

 

I think OS rhinos are better than your giving them credit for. While my psybacks are still dealing out the pain after the occupants have disembarked, the rhino fairly is benign. This moves it down your opponents priority level, and increases it's odds of survival. Of the 7 games I've played in 7th, two of them I've won due to objective secured transports. these are games I would have been considered tabled in back in 6th.

I've heard this argument before, even back in 5th. No, the existence of other units doesn't magically make bad units 'much more survivable'. Its bad logic to assume any action on your opponents part. For all you know, they'll focus down your transports Turn 1, because they know what the cargo does. Or, they'll use chaff to block off any meaningful progress up the board (horde armies are notorious for this), bogging you down in cheap worthless blobs while the annoying power units rain hell on you. 

 

Also, to take your argument to its logical extreme, we don't have the critical mass of mech to make your strategy work. The reason IG, BA/SW Razorspam and our own Henchmen Razorspam works is because they put 6+ vehicles down on the table and ask the opponent to kill them all. Usually, they kill about half, the remaining cargo+transport gets where it needs to be in time, and they win accordingly. Knights will struggle (without spamming Strikes) to put down even 5 x AV11 hulls in a normal game. Henchmen are always going to be drastically less expensive to do it with, and moreover you don't care if the Razorback dies, because the cargo is 12 points of chaff, not minimum 100pts of Knights. 

 

If your opponents aren't killing Troop dedicated transports in 7th, they're idiots. As you say, you've won games with 'Objective Secured' vehicles. Given 3HP at AV11 is not especially hard to kill (its statistically harder to kill 3 Marines, depending on AP values), it's within the realms of possibility for all but the jankiest lists. 

Mech is totally fine atm, if not better RD. The cover hopping you're describing can be applied to mech but with more ease since the vehicles can move up to 18" in a turn (compared to infantry 6+d6), and actually get a better save now too (5+ is the norm for non-ruin cover for infantry, but vehicles that are 25% or more obscured get 4+ cover regardless of what is providing it).

See above

 

You're not actually answering my points by alluding to your previous comments. What makes Mech-MSU so good isn't just that you're spamming hulls, it's that you increase the survivability of the contents significantly. The fact that my opponent must dedicate a certain minimum of Anti-Tank weapons to even be able to see my Purifiers/Strikes means that my PA guys are safer.

 

Also you contradict yourself when you say that the existence of other units don't make things more survivable, and that we also simultaneously lack the critical mass to make Mech-MSU happen. By the latter statement, you already acknowledge that having other units of certain types increases the overall durability of the army as a whole. Infantry are protected from small arms fire so long as they're in Rhinos/Razorbacks, and those Rhinos and Razorbacks become more effective when taken in larger numbers.

 

But to reiterate the point that I was making and wasn't answered by your statement: anything infantry can do, mech can do better--except assault.

 

Mech is faster,

Vehicles get better cover,

Damage table makes vehicles tougher

 

 

Also, don't discount Cleansing Flame so easily man! Mech purifiers (or Raveifiers, if you don't like Mech) can absolutely get into range to use it offensively. And let me tell you, when you get even 2 combat squads in to range to use it, they absolutely shred whatever is around them.

Putting Purifiers in Rhinos is drawing a huge target on them for your opponent. If he doesn't focus those Rhinos down Turn 1, he's doing it wrong by definition. Also, Rhinos (unlike Ravens) can be stopped by chaff walls or other deployment tricks. Ravens fly over all that nonsense and can deliver two combat squads (and thus double-casting potential) into the heart of enemy lines. 'Cleansing Flame' is absurd if you can set it up right, but I don't see Rhinos living long enough to deliver your Purifiers where they are needed.

 

Personally, I don't use Purifiers in Rhinos, partly for the reason you give, but also because I can reach that critical mass we spoke of earlier if I take 5 mans in Razorbacks instead of 10-mans in Rhinos.

 

And honestly, I think the situations where your description of the Raven will work in your favor are far and few in between. It'll take a minimum of 2 turns to arrive from Reserve, and then go into hover-mode to deposit the load. At which point you have an AV 12 "skimmer" (for all intents and purposes) that can be assaulted to death, and 2 five man squads that look real juicy, all in the middle of enemy lines.

 

Personally, I would much rather have my steamroller of transports + Purifiers moving forward and clearing anything in their path with combined shooting and Cleansing Flame. Using "chaff" as an argument against Purifiers in transports doesn't make much sense to me when CF exists.

 

 

The problem with Ravens, Shunting, and Scouting is that they don't protect your guys. Ravens actually kill your models when they go down (and Tau have no qualms shooting down Flyers), Shunting can get you where you need to be but doesn't change the fact that you're unable to assault and in 3+ armor.

What do you want, free invulnerable saves? Rhinos don't protect you either, they're AV11 deathtraps. 

Raven's aren't invulnerable. So what? It's a risk, like everything in 40k. 

Shunting has to be done intelligently, otherwise as you say you're just feeding your units to the enemy gunline. 30" unrestricted movement is huge though, you'd be surprised how with aggressive deployment the places it can get you Turn 1. Scouting is much the same, when used correctly you can set up a devastating ranged punch Turn 1 and the threat of melee Turn 2. If I trade Interceptors to ensure all the enemy Pathfinders are dead (or their psychic support, or Lootaz, or Havoks etc etc), in some matchups thats a good trade. Ideally of course you don't wanna lose your expensive Knights, but 40k is a game of sacrifice. If you hit hard enough Turn 1, their deaths can be worth it.

 

I don't know why you think Rhino's are deathtraps. They protect their contents from everything until they go down, and when they do go down they hardly do anything to the guys inside with those S4 AP- hits. Unlike the Raven which literally kills anything that should happen to be inside when it goes. Believe me, I've lost FAR more to downed Ravens than I ever have to all the Razorbacks I've lost. Nevermind that you can actually hide Razorbacks, and you can't hide a Stormraven.

 

As for Shunt and Scout, I'm not saying that they're bad. But I am saying that the opportunity costs are too high. Shunt means you're looking at Interceptors, and straight up: Interceptors cost too much. They're glorified Strikes, and even Strikes aren't as amazing now that they've lost Warpquake.

 

Personally I play against a lot of AP2-3 weapons, many of which either ignore cover or the cover was removed somehow. Paying 300 points for a unit that is designed to harass enemy sidelines at range (seeing as they're not dedicated for assault), and that stands in the open with Power Armor sounds like a terrible idea.

 

 

And the new damage table actually means a lot for our vehicles. Too often the problem I found with mech wasn't that my vehicles could get glanced to death, it was that they exploded on the first turn. Now my opponents MUST invest 3 (non-AP2-) shots into my vehicle rather than just hope they get lucky. More and more, that 4 HP Land Raider is looking really good to me.

No, as I mentioned earlier, stripping Hull Points works exactly the same. 

Melta still nukes Land Raiders, as do Monstrous Creatures in melee. I'm hoping the abuse of allied PFG Librarian and 'Sanctuary' can revive the Land Raider, but time will tell.

 

Why are you so hung up on Hull Points? I say "the changed damage table improves vehicle survivability", and your response is that Hull Points haven't changed? So what? I didn't mind when my opponent put five missile launchers into my Razorback and stripped it of its Hull Points. That seemed reasonable to me. I did mind though when my Land Raider got blown up by a single shot however. That did not seem as reasonable. If my opponent dedicates that much AT to one target each time, then my MSU list is gonna stomp them. It's when all my vehicles get one-shotted T1 that life starts to suck.

 

That latter part has changed, and not in an insignificant way. Melta's still penetrate well, but when they do they have the same chance Lascannons had to destroy vehicles, and Lascannons were not particularly impressive. You're going to need more meltas to do the same job reliably and that means a lot to me. Lascannons are laughable now, where they were mediocre before. Mech has benefited from all of this, despite Hull Points being a thing.

 

Agreed. 'Objective Secured' is very powerful on durable or spammable units, as you can really make your opponent work to get your objectives off you. That's why I'd use 'TGS' for Scouting/Outflanking over granting scoring status in most matchups, as you should build your list with a solid Troops core without relying on 'TGS' to shore it up. The beauty of 'TGS' is that it is so flexible, so it's up to you to judge which buff to grant which units.

I definitely agree with you here. Flexibility is king for Grey Knights.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You're not actually answering my points by alluding to your previous comments. What makes Mech-MSU so good isn't just that you're spamming hulls, it's that you increase the survivability of the contents significantly. The fact that my opponent must dedicate a certain minimum of Anti-Tank weapons to even be able to see my Purifiers/Strikes means that my PA guys are safer

 

Yes it is. You're overwhelming your opponents ability to remove your vehicles, by taking so many that the loss of a few (or more than a few, depending on matchup) won't instantly hobble your army. 

 

Opponents don't need true AT to crack AV11. The same weapons that whittle down Marines so well (autocannon types) work just as well stripping HP off low and medium AV vehicles. I wrote at length why stripping HP is a superior strategy to going for pens (as you agree, the new damage chart makes one-shotting very difficult without bonuses to the roll from AP etc). 

Also you contradict yourself when you say that the existence of other units don't make things more survivable, and that we also simultaneously lack the critical mass to make Mech-MSU happen. By the latter statement, you already acknowledge that having other units of certain types increases the overall durability of the army as a whole. Infantry are protected from small arms fire so long as they're in Rhinos/Razorbacks, and those Rhinos and Razorbacks become more effective when taken in larger numbers.

 

No I don't. I never said Razorbacks become magically better or tougher by bringing them in larger numbers. What I'm saying is that by taking large amounts of mech, you mitigate the losses you'll suffer. Having 6+ Razors on the field doesn't mean they're any tougher than 3 or 4. It just means your opponent is going to find it harder to dismantle them all in time.

Mech is faster,

Vehicles get better cover,

Damage table makes vehicles tougher

 

Yes, but in order to make use of that greater mobility, you need the vehicle to stay alive. Vehicles get better cover under certain circumstances, which your opponent can mitigate via either positioning or by having 'Ignore Cover' on key units. 

 

The damage table is irrelevant except for high AV, which is the only vehicle type that will stick around long enough for pens to matter. Glances kill stuff faster, and GW has made no attempt to fix that aspect of vehicles vulnerability. 

Personally, I don't use Purifiers in Rhinos, partly for the reason you give, but also because I can reach that critical mass we spoke of earlier if I take 5 mans in Razorbacks instead of 10-mans in Rhinos.

 

By which point, I would ask, why not just use Henchmen? Vastly cheaper, they bring plasma/melta spam (BS3 but), and they leave big chunks of points free for you to spend on Knights still. 

And honestly, I think the situations where your description of the Raven will work in your favor are far and few in between. It'll take a minimum of 2 turns to arrive from Reserve, and then go into hover-mode to deposit the load. At which point you have an AV 12 "skimmer" (for all intents and purposes) that can be assaulted to death, and 2 five man squads that look real juicy, all in the middle of enemy lines.

 

Well I've used the Raven to good effect, so I can say that surprisingly an AV12 Flyer with melta immunity and an Assault Ramp does actually do pretty well. It usually does die after delivering the cargo, but I'm okay with that, just as I am with losing my DK if he kills at least 2-3 squads/targets. I haven't tried out the new 'Cleansing Flame', but the old one was insane if you could contact multiple units. The new one is ranged (so I'd be using it before shooting and charging), but the AOE is larger and depending on positioning you can hit a lot of stuff. 

Personally, I would much rather have my steamroller of transports + Purifiers moving forward and clearing anything in their path with combined shooting and Cleansing Flame. Using "chaff" as an argument against Purifiers in transports doesn't make much sense to me when CF exists.

 

Except its not a steamroller, its an AV11 paper mache wall to IG, Tau, Eldar, Necrons etc. 'Cleansing Flame' isn't a gurantee, and if you're taking 5-man squads your firepower (whilst still nasty) will not wipe out everything in your way. Orks, Nids and IG can put down big blobs of infantry to swamp your advance, and are quite happy to lose them if they result in you getting bogged down in the mid-field. Speedbump tactics have been around since 4th. 

I don't know why you think Rhino's are deathtraps. They protect their contents from everything until they go down, and when they do go down they hardly do anything to the guys inside with those S4 AP- hits. Unlike the Raven which literally kills anything that should happen to be inside when it goes. Believe me, I've lost FAR more to downed Ravens than I ever have to all the Razorbacks I've lost. Nevermind that you can actually hide Razorbacks, and you can't hide a Stormraven.

 

If you're advancing, by definition you're not hiding. 

If you're losing Ravens that often you need to either take out Interceptors faster, or Jink more. 

As for Shunt and Scout, I'm not saying that they're bad. But I am saying that the opportunity costs are too high. Shunt means you're looking at Interceptors, and straight up: Interceptors cost too much. They're glorified Strikes, and even Strikes aren't as amazing now that they've lost Warpquake.

 

26 points is very reasonable considering what they do. Also, S6 AP3 with 'Hammerhand' and the fact that you're usually getting the charge (due to Shunt and Jump Infanty movement) means they're plenty scary to their chosen prey (backfield shooty units and artillery). Of course don't put them into melee with enemy specialists, but against even Tac Marines, they'll trade quite well. 

Personally I play against a lot of AP2-3 weapons, many of which either ignore cover or the cover was removed somehow. Paying 300 points for a unit that is designed to harass enemy sidelines at range (seeing as they're not dedicated for assault), and that stands in the open with Power Armor sounds like a terrible idea.

 

Why are you standing in the open? I don't think you've played with Interceptors before. You hide them, or deploy them out or range of the majority of the enemy's guns (preferably in good cover). Shunt gives you a very long range to position them, 30" is huge. Also, why would you stay at range? As I mentioned earlier, they clean up standard and shooty infantry just fine in melee. Even without 'Hammerhand' you'll win most of the melee's you enter with backfield stuff (Obliterators would be a problem of course, but you have the DK for them). 

Why are you so hung up on Hull Points? I say "the changed damage table improves vehicle survivability", and your response is that Hull Points haven't changed? So what? I didn't mind when my opponent put five missile launchers into my Razorback and stripped it of its Hull Points. That seemed reasonable to me. I did mind though when my Land Raider got blown up by a single shot however. That did not seem as reasonable. If my opponent dedicates that much AT to one target each time, then my MSU list is gonna stomp them. It's when all my vehicles get one-shotted T1 that life starts to suck.

 

Because Hull Points are stupid and make everything you're talking about irrelevant. One-shotting didn't matter in 6th, even in 5th people were using massed fire to kill Chimeras due to smoke launchers. 

It's not wasting 5 missile launchers on a Rhino that's a problem (that's pretty dumb). Its the fact that S6/7 spam can turn your Rhinos into flaming wreckage, and regardless of cover largely (they break cover saves through sheer hits). The way to get around that is to bring 6+ vehicles to overwhelm their ability to focus down each one so easily (ie they'll either kill half but not touch the rest largely, or try and spread and you power through with 1-2 HP left on each by the time you reach effective range). 

That latter part has changed, and not in an insignificant way. Melta's still penetrate well, but when they do they have the same chance Lascannons had to destroy vehicles, and Lascannons were not particularly impressive. You're going to need more meltas to do the same job reliably and that means a lot to me. Lascannons are laughable now, where they were mediocre before. Mech has benefited from all of this, despite Hull Points being a thing.

 

No, because AP1 is +2 bonus, AP2 is +1. Its a pretty substantial difference. Not to mention melta rolls 2D6+8, whereas lascannon only rolls D6+9. Melta is substantially better at killing vehicles, its also typically an Assault weapon (so you pop the transport and can then assault the occupants), or mounted on fast platforms that are either vehicles or Relentless (Landspeeders, Attack Bikes, battlesuits, infantry etc). 

 

 

The way to fix the imbalance is simple. Glancing hits can cause shaken/stunned/immobilise/weapon destroyed results, but never cause Hull Point loss. Pens still cause HP loss and roll on the full chart. 

[IndigoJack]

You're right, those S6/7 weapons are great at killing vehicles. Unless they explode the vehicle (not possible with AP3+, hence why the change to the damage chart does matter) the occupants inside are safe. My opponent can either continue shooting at vehicles or dump fire into the occupants. And since I chose to combat squad (because that's what this thread is about), he further has to choose between one of two disembarked targets. All of this is of course moot if I get first turn (58% chance normally, 67% with coteaz) where my opponent can do nothing to stop my advance.

 

We can talk about this all day, but what it comes down to is in all my games of 6th and the ones I've played in 7th, I've yet to have all my transports dismantled in a timely enough manner that I could call them a waste. The fact is, you're in the minority concerning your opinion of transports. Non one is denying that you've had bad experiences with them, but when everyone else's experience (not just here, but in the general internet-o-sphere) goes counter to yours, you might want to stop spouting off you're opinion like it's a fact.